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One of my favorite parts of the Pathfinder campaign setting is Razmir, his cult and his quest for immortality / godhood
As far as I am aware the only canon method it is mentioned that he tries to use to extend his life is the Sun Orchid Elixir
But surely he can't rely on winning that auction all the time (another fascinating piece of lore by the way since it is implied that this is a blind auction where the bids can be in any format, not just gold pieces)
So what other methods might be out there? I am talking about real per the rules or things that people can imagine...
Note: Methods that are close but don't actually work are also valid here because I imagine he will be trying many things
Initial musings:
- Philosophers Stone - would work through most usual interpretations of the legend but not mechanically in the PF rules. (Although as the Sun Orchid Elixir is also a 20th level alchemist ability it is arguably connected)
- Some kind of dangerous experiment involving the positive energy plane that I haven't thought of
- Experiments on "immortal" or reincarnating races - Shabti and Samsaran
Methods to rule out:
- Bargain with a Devil/outsider
- Becoming a Lich (either of these he would have done by now if that was his aim)
I would be interested to know people's thoughts...
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I'm not too familiar with this guy, but seems like his easiest method of immortality would just be to hit level 20 and take http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arca ne-discoveries-paizo/immortality/
Reincarnation is a spell that revives people that died from old age. It also is probably something he doesn't have access to. He can't cast it on himself via wish, and I doubt any of his followers are druids. Plus, the Green Faith seem like the type that just wouldn't give in to money.
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Reincarnation is a spell that revives people that died from old age. It also is probably something he doesn't have access to. He can't cast it on himself via wish, and I doubt any of his followers are druids. Plus, the Green Faith seem like the type that just wouldn't give in to money.
Reincarnate on self is absurdly easy for a Wizard 19. He just needs a scroll of Limited Wish and to cast Dominate Person on someone who can easily UMD it. Then he commands his minion to use the scroll on him when he commits suicide. Dominate Person won't have a chance of breaking early from lack of telepathic contact until the next day, so that issue doesn't come up.
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The simplest method, one already readily available to Razmir, is Astral Projection. It has no duration and places the caster's true body in stasis.
Combine this with a personal demi-plane with the Timeless property. Don't tell anyone that the version of "you" they interact with is not your true body. Not only do you not age, anyone attempting to assassinate you is in for an unpleasant surprise.
An immortality contract with Asmodeus. If you turn into a devil, you don't age and killing you just makes you reform in hell.
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Reincarnation is a spell that revives people that died from old age. It also is probably something he doesn't have access to. He can't cast it on himself via wish, and I doubt any of his followers are druids. Plus, the Green Faith seem like the type that just wouldn't give in to money.Reincarnate on self is absurdly easy for a Wizard 19. He just needs a scroll of Limited Wish and to cast Dominate Person on someone who can easily UMD it. Then he commands his minion to use the scroll on him when he commits suicide. Dominate Person won't have a chance of breaking early from lack of telepathic contact until the next day, so that issue doesn't come up.
What about contingency and reincarnation. It goes off the moment you die.
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Are there stats for Razmir (and the other famous NPCs of Golarion)?
Is there some way to combine astral projection and twin form, so you can be your own bodyguard in your own demiplane while you lie in stasis?
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I'd have thought researching a spell that massively slows the aging process would easily be within the powers of a 9th level spell.
IS Razie a wizard though, or a sorcerer?
If a wizard then I'd go with the arcane discovery. That seems the really, really obvious way to go.
Looking at the wiki is he listed as a 19th level wizard. So sounds like he has some xp to gain still.
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Razmir probably worries more about a violent death (pesky assassins and adventurer-assassins...) than dieing from old age.
I guess he'd go for the traditional wizard approaches, like the already mentioned discovery and demiplane, but also clones. A PC would have more options, if planned from the beginning - such as being a samsaran, getting reincarnate from the witch list and combining it with contingency. Or multiclassing with reincarnated druid. But Razmir gets bonus points for keeping to his identity as classic evil wizard BBEG. ;)
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In PF you can only make Demiplanes permanent, not instantaneous, plus anyone can destroy it with Disjunction or Wish/Miracle if they get there without the owner noticing (or they do it in a group because he can only eject one person a turn).
There requirement for using Planeshift to travel to a demi-plane is
a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel
A requirement that is impossible to meet unless you've already visited the target demi-plane or can acquire material from someone else who has.
The barriers stopping you are:
- Knowledge: you don't know you're facing a body created through Astral Projection.
- Knowledge: Where is caster located while using Astral Projection? The possible scope includes the entire multiverse and all possible planes of existence.
- If you manage to determine the mage is using Astral Projection from a demi-plane (as opposed to a secure location on one of the Planes), how do you determine which plane and where it is located? (Divination, up to and including Wish can be blocked.)
- Travel: Assuming you both determine the caster is using Astral Projection and determine where in the multiverse he is operating from, you have to be able to reach him. Not a trivial undertaking. See above for material component requirement.
- Wish can certainly transport you, bypassing the material requirement of Planeshift, but you still need to know where you are going.
- Wish cannot duplicate Mage's Disjunction to destroy a demi-plane. Duplication of 9th level spells is beyond the scope of Wish.
Any time you start using Wish as a bypass to accomplish something, remember this:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
GM fiat is the RAW.
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D stroy the demiplane? OK, everything in it whose name starts with the letter D is destroyed.:)
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Longevity mythic path ability?
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D stroy the demiplane? OK, everything in it whose name starts with the letter D is destroyed.:)
But I named my demi-plane ^&@!!*
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Where is the requirement the fork can only be done if you've visited in the plane in question?
How are you going to attune a rod to a dimension you've never been to, know nothing about, cannot describe in even vague terms?
If that were the case why would Create Demiplane make it an option to be taken to your new plane when you could never get the benefits of the spell if you chose not to?
The spell used to create the demi-plane simultaneously transports the caster. Even if he makes no specific arrangements for returning after leaving, he still has all the above information.
It's also valueless and thus in a component pouch or, failing that, Eschew Material and False Focus.
Sure, we'll run with this. All the character needs to do is explain how he managed to attune the fork to a plane he has no knowledge of. No money required.
If the PC cannot provide the above information when casting Plane Shift I, as GM, will require a detailed explanation on how the attuned rod required for the spell was obtained/created.
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The Shae managed to figure out how to trascend to Immortality. There's no actual mechanics for it, but it's an interesting campaign idea.
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The Shae managed to figure out how to trascend to Immortality. There's no actual mechanics for it, but it's an interesting campaign idea.
Thanks
This is the sort of thing I was thinking about - something that can spin off into a campaign arc, not necessarily something that mechanically works
All the Astral plane stuff sounds very confusing!
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How are you going to attune a rod to a dimension you've never been to, know nothing about, cannot describe in even vague terms?Isn't that the sort of problem that spells like legend lore or vision are made to handle?
Mind Blank and Screen are the typical defenses employed by mages desiring privacy.
Additionally, Legend Lore requires at least some information on what you are seeking.
If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).
Even if the target lacks magical precautions, you still must have at least some information. With rumors, you get to spend weeks casting to get the next location where you may be able to gather more information.
As a DM, I would run with this. The players will be going to something called an adventure, where they will be expending time, effort, and resources to accomplish their goal of tracking down the wizards Sanctum Sanctorum.
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The Shae managed to figure out how to trascend to Immortality. There's no actual mechanics for it, but it's an interesting campaign idea.Thanks
This is the sort of thing I was thinking about - something that can spin off into a campaign arc, not necessarily something that mechanically works
All the Astral plane stuff sounds very confusing!
Sorry it sounds confusing! If you'll allow me, maybe I can help out?
I will be providing links (they'll be in blue) to explain the process.
Canonically, Razmir is a 19th level wizard; this provides access to:
- a) 3+ 9th level wizard spells/day, and 4+ for all lower levels
- b) an arcane school (if I had to choose one, it'd be enchantment; that said, generalist would be my preference),
- c) an arcane bond (I'm going to guess it's his mask), and Scribe Scroll
- d) several bonus feats (these can be arcane discoveries instead)
The important part, here, is the spells - we can effectively ignore everything else
So now to the steps:
1) Create greater demiplane - this allows you to create your own demiplane; note, if Razmir has conjuration as an opposition school would require two spell slots to cast create greater demiplane instead of one; fortunately, at 19th level, he has three, so he's in the clear. In any event, he casts the spell once, to create the plane, then casts it again, and selects the "time" trait (look under "Create Demiplane, Greater" on that page, above "Create Demiplane, Lesser"), and chooses the "timeless" trait
- - this creates an effect as described here, with the important part being: "If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."
- 1a) he should probably also shell out the cash and make it permanent; it seems that the demiplane would exist anyway, but I just like to be sure so that GM rulings don't creep up behind me and cause things to fail by surprise (something that, curiously, I've never actually had happen and don't actually expect; don't know why I'm so thorough, but it's useful in forum discussions, so there we go). Note: even if he can't cast permanency (if that's required) to gain the timeless trait right away, that's fine - he's got 19 days to re-prepare his spells and cast again.
- 1b) There may be some question about how he gets there, but really, there are a ton of ways, but I'll just leave the obvious, here: plane shift. There are things discussing this above me in detail.
2) Next, he uses astral projection to leave the demiplane. That means several things:
- 2a) you go to the astral plane; say, "hello" astral plane, because you're not going to stay here for long
- 2b) you use that to go to another plane: seriously doesn't matter which, just pick one
- 2c) you then use plane shift to get to the Material plane
- 2d) Congratulations! You're now functionally immortal!
- - this functions because
- - > "leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane."
- - > "To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter."
- - > "If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. This is a traumatic affair, however, and you gain two permanent negative levels if your second body or astral form is slain."
= = > All of this, together, means you can basically wait until killed, use astral projection again, then use whatever means to erase the negative levels (typically some scrolls with you), and pick up right where you left off.
For greater security, most mages fill their private demiplane with a private sanctum effect (optionally: can be made permanent, as noted in the description, though the timeless trait should make it last effectively forever). The best defense, of course, is some combination of spellbane and mind blank.
In any event, you're now functionally immortal.
Create greater demiplane (use to acquire your demiplane with timeless trait) -> astral projection to get a new "safe" body.
Of course, this ignores the other easy method to gain immortality: wish. Now, most people would assume that I'm talking about using the wish spell to make a wish like, "I wish for immortality." but... no. Not really. Instead said spell can imitate any 7th level or lower non-wizard spell. In this case, the spell in question is Cyclic reincarnation. I mean, it's basically all you'd ever need. "Why, yes, I'd like to come back young and healthy and vigorous. Thank you!" Just use your abilities to either set up some sort of contingency (in this case, he can literally use that spell, as at 18th level, he can hit 6th level or lower spells), or by arranging for some sort of effect or minion to have it cast on you. And, you know, if you don't want the slight chance that you might not be destroyed right away, if turned into undead, simply have a sanctify corpse effect running on you at all times (either by permanency or by some custom magic item - it costs ~2k to 4k, depending on how you set it up).
So, yes: immortality is... not that hard to come by, especially for a 19th level wizard.
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As far as I am aware the only canon method it is mentioned that he tries to use to extend his life is the Sun Orchid Elixir
But surely he can't rely on winning that auction all the time (another fascinating piece of lore by the way since it is implied that this is a blind auction where the bids can be in any format, not just gold pieces)
He needs to win once every couple of decades, if my recollection of how the elixir works is correct. But he's also competing against newcomers and others at the auction.
- Philosophers Stone - would work through most usual interpretations of the legend but not mechanically in the PF rules. (Although as the Sun Orchid Elixir is also a 20th level alchemist ability it is arguably connected)
Thuvian alchemist PRC can have an equivalent for personal use at level 15. Not that that helps Razmir.
- Bargain with a Devil/outsider
There's an NPC in Hell Unleashed with a contract with Asmodeus personally granting her eternal youth.
Another possible route would be to serve a demon lord, who can transform followers into half-fiends (which already grants immortality), and then full demons (but not those more powerful than the original being).
He's not going to do that because he's passing himself off as a god, so won't serve another, but, with another level, and enough villainy in service to a demon lord, he could, by RAW, become a Balor with 20 levels of Wizard, which sounds a bit gamebreaking.
- Becoming a Lich (either of these he would have done by now if that was his aim)
He might consider this if he starts to get desperate, he does have the resources of an entire country, so he should be able to arrange everything at a short notice.
It gets complicated when you consider he can bank spells in scrolls and pearls of power. He may have a stone of luck +5.
Have you considered that the sun orchids may be being farmed in a specially created demiplane? That may explain why only so many can be grown a year. All those limits on demiplane size.
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Razmir is a True God and, unlike pretenders such as Aroden, he is truly immortal. All hail Razmir!
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It gets complicated when you consider he can bank spells in scrolls and pearls of power. He may have a stone of luck +5.
Have you considered that the sun orchids may be being farmed in a specially created demiplane? That may explain why only so many can be grown a year. All those limits on demiplane size.
I had not considered that...
I am fascinated by the Sun Orchid elixir. As in why it is so limited (I think it is something to do with Thuvians being Pharasma devotees) and notably who else would be in the auction (with the means to win).
I also get the idea that bids can be "interesting" rather than straight gold pieces. Perhaps artifacts, slaves etc.
What part are you referring to when you talk of 'banking' spells?
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It gets complicated when you consider he can bank spells in scrolls and pearls of power. He may have a stone of luck +5.
Have you considered that the sun orchids may be being farmed in a specially created demiplane? That may explain why only so many can be grown a year. All those limits on demiplane size.
I had not considered that...
I am fascinated by the Sun Orchid elixir. As in why it is so limited (I think it is something to do with Thuvians being Pharasma devotees) and notably who else would be in the auction (with the means to win).
I also get the idea that bids can be "interesting" rather than straight gold pieces. Perhaps artifacts, slaves etc.
What part are you referring to when you talk of 'banking' spells?
You make some scrolls one day, and the next day you can cast your normal complement + use the scrolls. With pearls of power, you can recast a spell. Thus you have a spell slot "in the bank".
More create demiplanes and permanency in one day.
A scroll can have 3 permanency spells on it. It's easier to work with than huge piles of treasure.