I've decided to give my players gestalt after making a presence in Aridia, a land of dangerous terrain, strong monsters, and where commerce is handled not through coin, but through the heads of slain monsters and bounties(locals believe that coins are a hollow form of currency, and that the only proper way to prove one's worth is through trophies and other evidence of one's combat prowess), and overcome challenging and personal solo trials in their subconscious, overseen by a wise woman. Here is some info about the characters:
Lorana: An Order of the Dragon Cavalier who aims to start a combat training school for women(she's sick of the notion of damsels in distress and women being helpless, and wants to empower women to become independent). Enjoys picking fights with sexist men in bars.
Kazé-oá: A Flame Warrior Elementalist who ran away from his rich family's estate and changed his face and name to become an adventurer(Kazé-oá is the name he currently uses; he is an adrenaline junkie dissatisfied with life as a noble). Performs parlor tricks with fire in bars for attention and to make a quick gp.
Lucine: An Incanter with the Channel Energy Specialization who tries to teach the virtues of peace, patience, and diplomacy(she can't bring herself to harm any creature). In bars, sits in a back corner booth, politely enjoying her meal and drink.
Perra: Another Incanter, this time with no Specializations, who seeks the advanced technological relics of the past(despite being a spellcaster, she fluffs her abilities as the result of robots, gadgets, and devices she designs and creates, and calls herself a gadgeteer instead) She gives demonstrations of her creations in bars and pries for info about technological relics.
The campaign I'm running uses Spheres of Power instead of Vatican magic. I can give more details if needed, but I'm hoping to get advice for what trials to give them and what classes to give them when they become gestalted.
Lorena: Barbarian or Draconic Bloodrager? She likes to start fights, so why not be really good at beating up those that make her angry? Defeating an angry, dangerous ghost would work.
Kazé-oá: Hmm. Flame Dancer or Daredevil bard? Vigilante might also be really fun. He could save people from a fire or catch an arsonist that's framing him.
Lucine: There is a monk archetype I think that fits her outlook.
Perra: Numerian Scavenger Rogue or Cuber-Soldier Fighter could be interesting. Either could involve an ancient technological ruin that's still running despite its creators being gone.
I think that I would give Lorana the Dracomancer class with her first draconic companion dependent on how she completes her trial, which might start out with her as the leader of a group of women who hold men as slaves(think either Drow or the Amazons)and is asked to address a series of issues regarding her stance on the rights of women and men.
Kazé-oá never really cared about issues of morals and ethics, so maybe a good trial would force him to take a moral and ethical stance for better or for worse.
Lucine's trial should probably be a monster trying to tempt her to attack it and getting her to doubt her values. If she restrains herself for a set amount of time, she gets peace monk. Otherwise, she attacks the creature and gets some other class.
I'm also looking at other 3pp.
You might consider the Artisan class, found here, for Perra then. It's an amazing class that makes crafting worth it.
Looks really complicated, but cool. Thanks.
Any more suggestions?
Bump
Why not just let them choose what other class they want?
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To avoid power-gamey min-maxing? So it feels like they actually earned something?
I want to award my players for surviving and putting up with an area where every obstacle is APL+3 to 5, while the trial is for players to develop and explore new facets of their characters, and to determine an appropriate class to give to compliment the newfound angle of the characters, but power-gaming prevention is still a factor. I will allow them to retrain, though I doubt they would.
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To avoid power-gamey min-maxing? So it feels like they actually earned something?
How exactly do you equate players min-maxing to players feeling they haven't earned anything?
I mean I think giving people a gestalt as a reward is a great idea (provided you consult them, this is their character after all, you shouldn't just force stuff onto them if they think it conflicts with their idea of the character). But I don't see how players choosing their own gestalts somehow devalues it.
You could allow your players to simply choose the other side of the gestalt after they complete the trials. I mean, if a GM told me that I HAVE to gestalt with a specific class, it would kinda suck, IMHO. Especially if I had a much better build in mind for my character.
I'll have some locals tell them that the process grants a class dependent on how they complete the trial, not simply because they want that class, so either I'll let them get the class they want by completing the trial in a particular fashion, or I'll give them their choice of 3-5 classes granted and not allow them to rig responses.
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You could allow your players to simply choose the other side of the gestalt after they complete the trials. I mean, if a GM told me that I HAVE to gestalt with a specific class, it would kinda suck, IMHO. Especially if I had a much better build in mind for my character.
What possible Gestalt would possibly invalidate a build you'd started? Barring alignments restrictions, Gestalt only adds to a character.
I can certainly see the characters not getting to decide, from the characters point of view the get new abilities from completing your trial. The trial gives them what it gives them.
That doesn't have anything to with not letting the players decide though. And the advantages of giving them the choice of how their character is built seems obvious, and I don't see any disadvantages at all.
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I'm not familiar with the 3PP you're using, but the Occultist and Scavenger Investigator are object-themed classes if you're looking for more options for Perra and could convert the magic progression.
You could allow your players to simply choose the other side of the gestalt after they complete the trials. I mean, if a GM told me that I HAVE to gestalt with a specific class, it would kinda suck, IMHO. Especially if I had a much better build in mind for my character.What possible Gestalt would possibly invalidate a build you'd started? Barring alignments restrictions, Gestalt only adds to a character.
I would expect most players to feel pressure to use the features of the second class even if they don't really fit the concept or build. If you don't use the gestalt features, then it's disappointing - not much of a reward. And if your fellow players make better use of their gestalts than you do, you'll feel you're not pulling your weight.
I think some people are misunderstanding me. Let's say I'm currently a sorcerer in the game. The GM announces that every character will be getting a gestalt.
Let's say I would like to Gestalt with, a Paladin for instance. If the GM says, "No, you're Gestalt will be with a Fighter" then it will suck for me that I don't get to play the character I chose. Sure, Gestalt something is better than Gestalt nothing. But it's not what *I* chose for my character, you understand?
Hell, you could reverse it. Maybe I wanted to be a Fighter, but the GM decided that I would be a Paladin. It would still suck, because I'm basically being robbed of some agency over my character choices. Understand?
I am currently looking through:
-Genius Guide to the Dracomancer, Dragonrider
-Legacy of Dragons(not 3pp, I know, but it seemed non-standard, so I added it here)
-Company of Dragons(none of them are Taninim, though)
-New Paths Compendium(eagerly awaiting the new hardcover edition, too)
-Spheres of Power(dumped Vanican Magic for this system, too)
-Artisan(thank you again, Artzen)
-Artificer
I am willing to look at anything on d20pfrsd.
I think the difference lis in how it is received. If I am playing a normal champion fighter cool. I suddenly got paladin abilities or something weird.
If I am planning on building a gestalt, that is different. The GM is giving something the players didn't except.
We don't complain when we don't get the random loot that we want for our character, we don't complain when we are given random buffs. So long as the buffs are about averase across the party.
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I will definitely give my players a piece of advice through the locals before they have the chance to undertake their trials; either:
"Don't expect to get what you want"(if I don't give them a choice with their classes)
Or
"Try to form a 'Top 3' or a 'Top 5' before you go"(if I give them 3-5 classes to choose from)
Hopefully that will keep them from being disappointed with whatever I offer.
What are their stats like? Many classes have certain stat requirements. (I'd hate to play a charisma 10 bard, for example.)
I assume since you are using spheres that psionics from Dreamscarred Press is out?
I might throw a couple of psionic NPCs their way and see how they handle those rules, though I think that giving them psionic classes would just confuse or overwhelm them. I'm not even that familiar with the rules, myself.
I will definitely give my players a piece of advice through the locals before they have the chance to undertake their trials; either:
"Don't expect to get what you want"(if I don't give them a choice with their classes)
Or
"Try to form a 'Top 3' or a 'Top 5' before you go"(if I give them 3-5 classes to choose from)
Hopefully that will keep them from being disappointed with whatever I offer.
I like the idea of giving them a list of classes to choose from. Hell, you could give all of them the same list, just to make things simpler and arguably more fair.
From there, it's just an issue of making the list. Since you're using Spheres of Power, I suggest a low BAB High caster (Incanter) a mid BAB mid caster (Hedgewitch) and a high BAB low caster (Mageknight).
Those three are easily splashed into any build and can choose whichever mental ability score they please to be their main casting stat. As such, nobody should have any issue with being forced to choose among those three.
If you wanted, you could even design their trials with the end goal in mind (i.e. a trial for pure caster power, pure melee power, or a mix of both might and magic).
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I'm not even that familiar with the rules, myself.
Do not do so in this case. It would be a shame to leave a bad taste from such a wonderful system.
If you do, though, remember the single most important rule of Psionic Characters: You can never spend more points on a power than you have manifester levels. You do not have to spend as much as you can either.
To put it in a spell version: Level 5 Wizard must spend 5 points on Fireball to cast it, but can never spend 6 without leveling up. At level 10 he could still spend only 5 points, but then his Fireball only deals 5d6. If he spend 6 it would deal 6d6, and so on to a max of 10d6 for 10 points.
Contributor
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As someone who has done this exact thing before, I can't recommend against it enough - not unless you're 1000% ready for the power-level increase. I'm with Azten on this one.
Gestalt is far more game-breaking with Pathfinder classes, because for the most part, they're so much more powerful level-by-level than their predecessors.
With all that said, for a much less game-breaking experience, you could consider granting a free variant multiclassing benefit instead. Same basic theme, far less power.
I second those that have suggested that the players provide a short list of classes that they'd like to gain access to. Judging from what you've seen in the past might fail to account for opportunities and concepts that the players would want to try out if they were given the option.
I also congratulate you on letting oyur players get this chance. I wish one of my GMs would be more open to gestalting, there's a lot of fun to be had with it.
Lorana:Cavalier(Order of the Dragon), Str/Dex>Cha>Wis>Con>Int.
Kazé-oá:Elementalist(Flame Warrior Archetype), Cha>Dex>Con>Wis>Int>Str. Has Destruction and Nature(Fire) Spheres.
Lucine:Incanter(Wis-based, Channel Energy Specialization), Wis>Cha>Con>Dex>Int/Str. Has Life, Protection, and Fate Spheres.
Perra:Incanter(Int-based), Int>Wis>Dex>Str>Con>Cha(dump). Has Conjuration, Destruction, and Life Spheres.
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Honestly, I wouldn't give them full Gestalt. Instead, I'd give them free variant multiclassing. Rather than giving up feats they just get these at the right levels.
"Lorana: An Order of the Dragon Cavalier who aims to start a combat training school for women(she's sick of the notion of damsels in distress and women being helpless, and wants to empower women to become independent). Enjoys picking fights with sexist men in bars"
Free Fighter Variant Multiclass
Bravery: At 3rd level, he gains the bravery class feature as a fighter of his character level – 1.
Armor Training 1: At 7th level, he gains armor training 1.
Weapon Training 1: At 11th level, he gains weapon training 1.
Armor Training 2: At 15th level, he gains armor training 2.
Weapon Training 2: At 19th level, he gains weapon training 2.
She wants to train others? Well, this complements that. Bravery certainly suits her, and having the ability to wear armor more efficiently and to have weapon training will be a boon to a cavalier.
"Kazé-oá: A Flame Warrior Elementalist who ran away from his rich family's estate and changed his face and name to become an adventurer(Kazé-oá is the name he currently uses; he is an adrenaline junkie dissatisfied with life as a noble). Performs parlor tricks with fire in bars for attention and to make a quick gp."
Bard Variant Multiclass
Bardic Knowledge: At 3rd level, he gains the bardic knowledge class feature, treating his character level as his effective bard level.
Bardic Performance: At 7th level, he gains the ability to inspire courage and inspire competence as a bard of his character level – 4 for a number of rounds per day equal to his Charisma modifier + his character level.
Versatile Performance: At 11th level, he gains versatile performance in one Perform skill of his choice. He can retrain all his ranks in the two associated skills for free.
Lore Master: At 15th level, he gains lore master as a 5th-level bard.
Additional Performances: At 19th level, he gains the ability to use dirge of doom and inspire greatness as a bard of his character level – 4.
Compliments his background as a noble, as well as showmanship.
"Lucine: An Incanter with the Channel Energy Specialization who tries to teach the virtues of peace, patience, and diplomacy(she can't bring herself to harm any creature). In bars, sits in a back corner booth, politely enjoying her meal and drink."
Oracle or Cleric variant multiclass. If she has a deity, give her the cleric varaint multiclass with the appropriate domain. If not, have a friendly deity take interest in her, giving her life revelation. Feel free to pick a curse that will help her character out as well.
"Perra: Another Incanter, this time with no Specializations, who seeks the advanced technological relics of the past(despite being a spellcaster, she fluffs her abilities as the result of robots, gadgets, and devices she designs and creates, and calls herself a gadgeteer instead) She gives demonstrations of her creations in bars and pries for info about technological relics."
Rogue variant multiclassing. Trapfinding goes along very well with the technological bent.
Trapfinding: At 3rd level, she gains the trapfinding class feature.
Sneak Attack: At 7th level, she gains the sneak attack class feature. She can deal 1d6 points of extra damage. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every 4 levels beyond 7th, to a maximum of 4d6 at 19th level.
Evasion: At 11th level, she gains evasion.
Uncanny Dodge: At 15th level, she gains uncanny dodge.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 19th level, she gains improved uncanny dodge, treating her character level as her effective rogue level.
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Alot less paperwork for the players. Less of a power spike. But gives fluffy and player friendly bonuses to help personalize each character.
How about granting gestalt if they complete the tasks between 3rd-5th level, dropping the CR range in Aridia to APL - APL+6 and granting free VMC between 6th-10th, and dropping the CR range to normal and they gain some XP for completing the tasks after 10th. Once they complete the tasks, they can't do it again. They are completely unaware of the existence of Aridia before 3rd level.
Bump?
Bump.
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I'm not sure you're going to get any better advice than this, as your issue is very specific. It is possible a 3PP subforum would have more people familiar enough with the material to weigh in.
How about granting gestalt if they complete the tasks between 3rd-5th level, dropping the CR range in Aridia to APL - APL+6 and granting free VMC between 6th-10th, and dropping the CR range to normal and they gain some XP for completing the tasks after 10th. Once they complete the tasks, they can't do it again. They are completely unaware of the existence of Aridia before 3rd level.
I'm confused about how this works.
You're planning on changing the difficulty of the campaign based on when the players complete a subquest?
Is Aridia just the place where they do this subquest, or do you expect them to stay there?
^^^This is a good suggestion xD
the only class I'm even familiar with is the Cavalier and I'm not that familiar with them.
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That said, based on the stats and a glance at the d20pfsrd for the 3PP classes' BAB and saves:
I will second bard and vigilante (probably avenger) for Kazé-oá. Swashbuckler might work depending on whether the combat style involves a light or one-handed piercing weapon, with nothing but a buckler in the off-hand.
Bard's actually pretty strong for Lorana, too, though I'm not sure how it fits her personality. Arcane Duelist might be a neat archetype. If you're looking for something more combat oriented, you might consider paladin if you think she is interested in roleplaying the ethical aspects - it would make good use of high Cha and adds durability and healing. There's also an archetype with a drake companion, the Silver Champion - or if you're willing to fudge a bit you could go with Chosen One and a Pseudodragon familiar (instead of an outsider) sent by a goodly dragon deity. And again, depending on combat style she might be able to make use of Swashbuckler.
And while someone's mentioned Monk of the Lotus for Lucine, you should also check out the Sensei, which gives her magical advice, and the Invested Regent, which trades some feats for extra magical abilities based on her high Cha. Both are compatible with Monk of the Lotus if you want to double up archetypes.
If you do VMC, Grumbaki's suggestions are good, except maybe Perra since her poor BAB and reflex save mean she won't get much use out of sneak attack or evasion - but I'm not seeing a much better solution. Maybe wizard? Transmutation (Enhancement), or Conjuration (Creation) might suit? Ioun Wyrd familiar?
I once played in a 3.5 gestalt campaign with an EXTREMELY limited selection of classes. My first PC was a cleric//bard, but the rest of the party was a fighter//rogue, a fighter//scout, and a rogue//scout. I think it was a 3d6 in order thing too, because my cleric//bard could barely cast and didn't live long. I then made a Halfling ranger//fighter, but he was defeated by bureaucracy. The campaign collapsed soon after that.
I guess my point is that gestalt is a really special experience, and if you're going to do it, allow the players to choose their own classes. Don't sully it by placing lots of restrictions on their choices or forcing them to incorporate a class they don't want into their character. Gestalt should be a wondrous expression of diversity and inventiveness.
5-class list it is! I'll make it unique to each character, though.
I have 2 out of 5 classes for each character if they come early enough for gestalt. Here they are:(by Spheres of Power default, all spellcasting classes are spontaneous casters with no spell components; they are still keyed to their original spellcasting ability score)
Lorana: Dracomancer or Sorcerer
Kazé-oá: Skald or Vigilante
Lucine: Monk of the Healing Hand or Cleric
Perra: Occultist or Unchained Rogue
Any other classes?
I'll go with Grumbaki's suggestion if they come in time for free vmc.
No suggestions?
Honestly, just ask your players for some suggestions. You might get some responses that they find flavorful that us outsiders wouldn't think of.
All week and I still can't think of a way to ask them without spoiling it.
I have 2 out of 5 classes for each character if they come early enough for gestalt. Here they are:(by Spheres of Power default, all spellcasting classes are spontaneous casters with no spell components; they are still keyed to their original spellcasting ability score)
Lorana: Dracomancer or Sorcerer
Kazé-oá: Skald or Vigilante
Lucine: Monk of the Healing Hand or Cleric
Perra: Occultist or Unchained RogueAny other classes?
I'll go with Grumbaki's suggestion if they come in time for free vmc.
:)
Maybe I should rephrase: I don't know how to ask them what classes would be flavorful to their concepts without spoiling it for them.
just spring the rewards on them once the task is complete but hint to them that there are tasks that need to be done this could be done in several ways but my favorite and probably the most funny is to have a crazy old man give them a riddle
I was going to have their tour guide (who has yet to be gestalted) mention a mystic woman with the ability to unlock one's hidden potential, but refuses to use her powers for those without enough "character" (aka go stab some dragons in the face).
"YOU get gestalt, and YOU get gestalt, and YOU, and YOU!" XD
Ok, Oprah jokes. Guess this is where legitimate advice ends.