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Man, the horrendous things I do to a language just to make a possibly-obscure webcomic reference.
Anyway, title says what I'm looking for: how to become a bigger dragon.
Form of the dragon III peaks at Huge. We have two whole size categories to grow!
On a basic level, it seems like you could blend something like divine vessel after you're under the effects of fotd3, and call it a day - after all, dv is transmutation, but isn't polymorph which is (I think) the only part of that school that doesn't stack.
To be clear, I'm not looking to Taino out extra size increases to scores, I don't care where the effects come from, I'm just trying to figure out if we can use a valid rules combination and why and how. For this exercise, feel free to note magic items or spells I'm unaware of. Please cite and (unlike me, now, as I'm out of time) please provide links (d20pfsrd is a very acceptable source to me, despite the bizarre snubbing it sometimes recieves around here; though 1st party material preferred, 3rd party will be accepted as mild reference/example of others' takes on the thing).
Related question that I feel still fits into the Rules forum - beyond whatever reading of RAW you're using, do you feel like the trends you see among the rules over-all support this? Note that this is different from FAQratta or rulings - I'm just curious if you have RAW elements that support your claim. This is I necessary, but enlightening for the purpose of getting a better grasp of the Rules in general.
Also, inb4 James Rinser claims that RAW is whatever he says it is (i.e. not what is written down)! I love ya, my dude, but that particular line of logic is neither useful in this conversation, nor productive.
Also, also: please be courteous and respectful. You may disagree with someone, and that's okay, but please do not try to argue them out of their position, beyond citing relevant points, and showing supporting evidence. I may have (hopefully gently) ribbed James one paragraph up, but I want it made clear that actual commentary on people should probably be avoided.
Thanks for your time!
By the way, as noted above, it's just fine if stuff like size bonuses overlap - I'm not trying to get anything out of this other than, "what is the physically largest dragon, possible?"
This is not an attempt to gain real, ultimate power, or some kind of effort to grab the highest size bonuses possible, or any such thing. None of that stuff is bad, this just isn't that.
It's just curiosity plus a lack of personal time for heavy research.
Although inspired by an attempt at wooing a big dragon in a game, the actual rules debate doesn't matter for purposes of that game or that effect - by the time anyone comments on this, that one will be resolved one way or the other. Mainly, I was curious what a deeper look at rules interactions would yield, and why.
This discussion should help us resolve all sorts of similar things in the future!
Thanks again!
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On a basic level, it seems like you could blend something like divine vessel after you're under the effects of fotd3, and call it a day - after all, dv is transmutation, but isn't polymorph which is (I think) the only part of that school that doesn't stack.
Divine vessel explicitly says: "Magical effects that increase size do not stack."
Even though being a Colossal dragon would be awesome. Awesome, I say!
EDIT - A generous reading of polymorph any object could arguably let you assume the form of a Colossal dragon. If you don't limit it to emulating greater polymorph when assuming a dragon form (which seems reasonable to me, but I know people who would table-flip at the thought).
EDIT 2 - I've researched this a lot. I haven't found a foolproof RAW way to get actually bigger than Huge in dragon form. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but dangit, I'm limited to a measly Huge dragon shape! *shakes Huge fist in impotent fury at smug Colossal dragons*
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I don't know, I can't think of any wiggle-room or loopholes here....
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
So no spell, [Polymorph] or otherwise, can change your size while under the effects of a [Polymorph] spell.
So no combining Form of the Dragon with any spell that increases size.
There is no general rule printed that non-[Polymorph] size increases don't stack, but every size altering spell I can find includes the text that they don't stack with other magical size changes.
And of course, you have this FAQ that does kinda codify that size changes don't stack (though it references "rules on size changes" which don't actually exist anywhere).
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
From a very strict reading of the rules, you could argue that a non-spell size increase could stack with a [Polymorph] effect.
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You best bet is Greater Possession on a dragon and apply size altering magic from that point.
Summon Bigger Fish?
Reference: get!
You best bet is Greater Possession on a dragon and apply size altering magic from that point.
Hah! Fair, though it most definitely wouldn't qualify for what I am trying to do in general...
Still, it's a possibility, one supposes, to accomplish the stated goal!
Unfortunately, I looks like this concept is fairly well shut down before it even began... alas! Thanks, all! I'm kind of holding out hope that you can get embiggen dragon, but it isn't looking good! Thank you all for your input! Especially the links - super useful! I either haven't seen that FAQ, or have forgotten it by now... and I clearly mind-blanked (not as the spell!) on that line in divine vessel - that'll show me for going from memory and not having time!
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You best bet is Greater Possession on a dragon and apply size altering magic from that point.
Oh yeah! Brilliant!
Once again, it proves the old adage: "If you want to get Colossal, you're going to need to possess someone."
(It's a very specific adage.)
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Wouldn't Legendary Proportions do the trick?
It gets you at least one size category. Yes, it is a transformation spell but it is not marked as a polymorph spell. And would subsequent castings stack?
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Wouldn't Legendary Proportions do the trick?
It gets you at least one size category. Yes, it is a transformation spell but it is not marked as a polymorph spell. And would subsequent castings stack?
No. See Samasboy1's post above. It's not that multiple polymorphs don't stack. It's that multiple "magical effects" that increase size don't stack with polymorphs, regardless of whether those additional effects are from the polymorph subschool or not. And the FAQ cited precludes stacking legendary proportions with itself.
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Form of the Dragon caps out at spell level 8.
If you have in game time, money and a spell level 9 caster, just Research a Form of the Dragon IV. Making size cap Colossal.
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You best bet is Greater Possession on a dragon and apply size altering magic from that point.Oh yeah! Brilliant!
Once again, it proves the old adage: "If you want to get Colossal, you're going to need to possess someone."
(It's a very specific adage.)
I can get gargantuan with a synthesist, colossal would require a spell that increased size by two categories.
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You can also get gargantuan if you're an abyssal bloodrager, as they can get enlarge person even if in a form it would normally not be allowed.
So long as you can find a way to get form of the dragon 3, anyway. Otherwise, you need somone to polymorph any object you.
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You can also get gargantuan if you're an abyssal bloodrager, as they can get enlarge person even if in a form it would normally not be allowed.
"Demonic Bulk (Su): At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid."
I think that's just to cover the fact that enlarge person is ordinarily only able to affect "one humanoid creature." I don't think it supersedes the "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" rule.
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You can also get gargantuan if you're an abyssal bloodrager, as they can get enlarge person even if in a form it would normally not be allowed."Demonic Bulk (Su): At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid."
I think that's just to cover the fact that enlarge person is ordinarily only able to affect "one humanoid creature." I don't think it supersedes the "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" rule.
Ah. Disappointing.
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there is White Dragon and Red Dragon
Does a DM really need a Gargantuan Red Dragon on the table as a player? Gawds! the figure investments!
linktified!
