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I have been playing BG2 recently and I possibly going to be running a game for a friend of mine. So I thought "Why not take the plot or premise of BG2, but place it on Golarion and instead of Bhaal, why not Aroden?"
So, I was thinking which groups or organization would not want Aroden or his direct heir(s) to rise?
Thrune and the Chruch of Asmodeus were the first that came mind. After that some neutral, non-main stream Iomadaeans and followers of Milani also, come to mind.
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Some of the Veiled Masters might not be too keen to let the one Azlanti who managed to escape their control get revived.
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Serpentfolk as they're none too fond of the bipedal meat snacks that lopped off Ydersius' head, kicked it down a really deep hole and slaughtered so many of their own.
Any number of movers and shakers could want to get their grubby mitts on the character. Not all of the bad guy types would necessarily be hostile, Zon-Kuthon for example ...
Should be interesting to see where you go with this.
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Iomedae may have an odd relationship with Aroden's offspring, as she took on his follower. It could mean a schizm in her church.
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I don't know BG2, but am actually playing a PFS character that thinks he's Aroden Reincarnated (could be an amnesiac possessed by a vestige, or a reincarnation of a high priest, or an aboleth experiment, or the real deal).
Who he sees as his major potential enemies:
1) The Red Mantis assassins
2) Tar-Baphon
3) Razmir
4) Thrune, and by extension Asmodeus
5) Norgorber, because he knows Norgorber's past (or thinks he does).
I think Abadar.
Would ANY person even consider Abadar if Aroden came back? Would anyone even know Abadar's name within six months / a year after Aroden's return?
I think not.
I think so. Abadar is, after all, the god of wealth as well as cities and civilization. Aroden is about the glories and triumphs of humanity, he's Mr. Drums & Trumpets and "Great Man" narratives. Abadar is the god of all the work that goes into making humanity (and everyone, incidentally; remember that Aroden really only cared about humans) prosperous and successful that Aroden doesn't really seem to give as much thought to, probably since that was Abadar's job anyway.
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{. . .}
Any number of movers and shakers could want to get their grubby mitts on the character. Not all of the bad guy types would necessarily be hostile, Zon-Kuthon for example ...
{. . .}
I would think Zon-Kuthon and his followers would especially want to get their hands on an heir to Aroden. Not grubby, of course -- only using the best aseptic technique to practice their art on such an uncommon and historically important prize . . . .
{. . .}
Any number of movers and shakers could want to get their grubby mitts on the character. Not all of the bad guy types would necessarily be hostile, Zon-Kuthon for example ...
{. . .}I would think Zon-Kuthon and his followers would especially want to get their hands on an heir to Aroden. Not grubby, of course -- only using the best aseptic technique to practice their art on such an uncommon and historically important prize . . . .
Pretty much what I was trying to get at. Zon-Kuthon and Nidal would make for some unconventional allies to say the least.
^With allies like these, who needs enemies? I'd rather keep my body un-mutilated.
I have been playing BG2 recently and I possibly going to be running a game for a friend of mine. So I thought "Why not take the plot or premise of BG2, but place it on Golarion and instead of Bhaal, why not Aroden?"
So, I was thinking which groups or organization would not want Aroden or his direct heir(s) to rise?
Thrune and the Chruch of Asmodeus were the first that came mind. After that some neutral, non-main stream Iomadaeans and followers of Milani also, come to mind.
Thrune and Asmodeus would certainly be the biggest enemies of a "true" heir to Aroden, yes.
I don't think Iomedae and Milani would be opposed to an "heir" to Aroden; it's true that they benefited from his death, but they respected him and have fond memories of their time in his service. Besides, his death happened long enough ago, and their own portfolios and alignments are far enough away from his, that they don't really have any fear of losing a great deal of worship. Iomedae's might take a hit, but she always focused more on the "valor and honor" part of her portfolio than the "rulership" part anyway, so it's likely not a huge loss.
Now, those who are categorically against civilization are almost certainly going to oppose it; in Golarion, that mostly means the cult of Lamashtu (and other Demon Lord cults) and maybe some of the crazier druid organizations, though it could also include, say, the orcs of Belkzen, depending on where this happens and who gets wind of it (though they'd most likely just be a patsy for some other enemy).
The Whispering Way would want to do everything in their power to keep the successor to the guy who ripped Tar-Baphon a new one when he was still alive from ascending to godhood. They might even think they could use his flesh and blood or whatever to bring him back stronger than ever, maybe even as a straight-up god of undeath that would make Urgathoa cower in fear.
And again, depending on if he gets wind of this and where it happens, Razmir would make an interesting opponent; a false god who claims to have passed the Test of the Starstone, he'd consider someone with a legitimate chance of ascending to godhood and taking up the mantle of Aroden competition he really, really doesn't need.
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I give it fifty-fifty whether Iomedae breathes a sigh of relief because she was rubbish at the whole "Inheritor" shtick anyway or she decides to torture the Arodenspawn to death with celestial trumpets for not being a mini-Iomedae.
Zon-Kuthon is always hostile, unless he just simply doesn't notice you and you're outside of the AoE while he's focused on something else.Serpentfolk as they're none too fond of the bipedal meat snacks that lopped off Ydersius' head, kicked it down a really deep hole and slaughtered so many of their own.
Any number of movers and shakers could want to get their grubby mitts on the character. Not all of the bad guy types would necessarily be hostile, Zon-Kuthon for example ...
Should be interesting to see where you go with this.
Not necessarily. His followers alone can acquire very nice Heal skill capabilities that are of significant benefit. He has a sister (Shelyn) that I imagine he actually talks to at least civilly from time to time.
Z-K is not a deity I would ascribe a one-dimensional personality to. Groetus and Rovagug, sure, but not Z-K.
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I give it fifty-fifty whether Iomedae breathes a sigh of relief because she was rubbish at the whole "Inheritor" shtick anyway or she decides to torture the Arodenspawn to death with celestial trumpets for not being a mini-Iomedae.
Zon-Kuthon is always hostile, unless he just simply doesn't notice you and you're outside of the AoE while he's focused on something else.Serpentfolk as they're none too fond of the bipedal meat snacks that lopped off Ydersius' head, kicked it down a really deep hole and slaughtered so many of their own.
Any number of movers and shakers could want to get their grubby mitts on the character. Not all of the bad guy types would necessarily be hostile, Zon-Kuthon for example ...
Should be interesting to see where you go with this.
Not necessarily. His followers alone can acquire very nice Heal skill capabilities that are of significant benefit. He has a sister (Shelyn) that I imagine he actually talks to at least civilly from time to time.
Z-K is not a deity I would ascribe a one-dimensional personality to. Groetus and Rovagug, sure, but not Z-K.
His followers usually use that Heal skill to more effectively torture and mutilate themselves and their victims.
And no, he and Shelyn aren't very civil with each other. Zon-Kuthon did everything in his power to hurt Shelyn the moment he came back, including capturing and torturing their father into a mutilated shell of his former self (which now serves as his herald), pierced her hand with black nails when she reached out for him, and eventually fought her, which only ended when Shelyn took the glaive Whisperer of Souls - which had once been shared between them - and used it to drive him back. Since then, the two mostly do their best to avoid each other. Zon-Kuthon does strongly discourage his clerics from knowingly harming Shelyn's clergy, though, and it's suggested that this could either be because of some lingering affection from when he was Dou-Bral or because when they were young they both swore an oath to receive Whisperer of Souls, Dou-Bral's being that he would protect Shelyn and not knowingly harm her, and as a deity of Law as well as Evil he feels compelled to keep it to some extent now that he's cooled down a bit from when he first came back.
Of course, the biggest reason the church of Zon-Kuthon would likely be opposed to an heir to Aroden is that the House of Thrune would be opposed to them, and Cheliax is Nidal's only real political ally and this alliance is very valuable to both of them.
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Ah, political realities, makes sense to me.
Z-K have the only traits that let you treat yourself for .. hrm, could have sworn they had a trait that let 'em treat themselves for deadly wounds.
Ah well, they still make excellent battlefield surgeons. +1/day/patient treatment of deadly wounds is pretty sweet.
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Potentially:
Pissed off seers and oracles that depended on Aroden's previous existence to fulfill prophecy.
Anyone who makes time reporting devices or records history, since they have to go back and rewrite books for the last 100 years plus, and adjust calendars, hours, days, and so on.
Asmodeus, and pretty much all of Hell, unless the archdevils can use Aroden's rebirth to knock Asmodeus off his throne.
The ruling family of Cheliax, Asmodeus, and those that rely upon him
Any former colonies of Taldor, and Taldor itself
Any discontented worshippers of his, seeing his death as an abandonment of their worship and devotion, and his rebirth as simply a pathetic attempt at gaining back their trust.
Any of a new crop of deities who might see him as a competitor for worship
The Whispering Way
Tar-Barphon
Most of the evil gods
Most, if not all of the demon, daemon, div, demodad, etc evil outsider demigods
Iomedeans who won't accept his potential displacement of Iomedae as the Inheritor
The anti-religious nation whose names escapes me, along with other atheists or those whose philosophy doesn't support deific worship
Teachers who have to deal with an updated curriculum.
Students who have to deal with the same.
Arazni, and by association, Geb.
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Not necessarily. His followers alone can acquire very nice Heal skill capabilities that are of significant benefit. He has a sister (Shelyn) that I imagine he actually talks to at least civilly from time to time.
Z-K is not a deity I would ascribe a one-dimensional personality to. Groetus and Rovagug, sure, but not Z-K.
His followers are still mortal and can't quite manage to uniformly be Always Cenobite All The Time.
What on earth are you basing this idea that Z-K maintains cordial relations with Shelyn on? Everything I have seen indicates deep inmity between Shelyn and the possessed shell that was once Dou-Bral.
As for one-note personalities, from everything I've seen and read, Z-K is the one-note god of non-consensual BDSM, the Hellraiser series of movies, and mutilation.
From here, an oooooold post (ten years!) by the one that was her original designer.
Not technically fully canon, but I don't believe there is anything in-canon that explicitly contradicts it, to date.
Even if there is, Paizo (broadly speaking) has a "line item retcon" policy - unless something newer explicitly removes or replaces entire sections, whatever newer information that contradicts older information only applies to the section that it contradicts; otherwise, generally-speaking, everything printed is considered canon.
Examples:
- Paladins of Asmodeus don't exist, but the CoT article on Asmodeus is otherwise considered canon.
- Non-evil juju-crafted undead still exist (canonically), despite the fact that the juju oracle was entirely replaced by another juju oracle with abilities that have the same names but do entirely different things. (Even though non-evil undead don't exist. Except for when they do.)
- Achaekek's statblock is no longer canon, but other things written about him in those same areas of the old APs are.
- The entire module of Guardians of Dragonfall has been retconned to be non-canon, and many parts of the early dragon articles (though not all) are functionally non-canon (despite never being explicitly retconned) due to entirely different kinds of dragons showing up in print that were not referenced within said articles. But those parts that aren't contradicted are canon until otherwise noted.
These are just a few off-the-top-of-my-head examples, and aren't well researched. It's possible things have come out explicitly repudiating or altering some of them in other contexts - this is just all I have for now.
Pathfinder Wiki Canon Policy, if you're curious - doesn't specifically support what I was saying, but shows how there are different tiers of "official" and how at least one well-respected site views and uses them.
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Not necessarily. His followers alone can acquire very nice Heal skill capabilities that are of significant benefit. He has a sister (Shelyn) that I imagine he actually talks to at least civilly from time to time.
Z-K is not a deity I would ascribe a one-dimensional personality to. Groetus and Rovagug, sure, but not Z-K.
His followers are still mortal and can't quite manage to uniformly be Always Cenobite All The Time.
What on earth are you basing this idea that Z-K maintains cordial relations with Shelyn on? Everything I have seen indicates deep inmity between Shelyn and the possessed shell that was once Dou-Bral.
As for one-note personalities, from everything I've seen and read, Z-K is the one-note god of non-consensual BDSM, the Hellraiser series of movies, and mutilation.
If he were, there'd be Unholy War coming out of Nidal against all things artistic, beautiful and musical with a side helping of instigating [adult taboos] and 'home wrecking'. Instead they're largely a bunch of masochistic flagellants with a fondness for dim lighting often encountered performing rather odd errands.
Sure, Z-K wants his pig-sticker-on-a-stick back at some point, but in the aeons since it seems that Z-K has let that slide to a back burner for more esoteric considerations.
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If he were, there'd be Unholy War coming out of Nidal against all things artistic, beautiful and musical with a side helping of instigating [adult taboos] and 'home wrecking'. Instead they're largely a bunch of masochistic flagellants with a fondness for dim lighting often encountered performing rather odd errands.
And yet the lore is that he ignores Shelyn and has his followers focused on mutilation and "dark beauty." Also, you forgot that they're not just masochistic, they're also sadistic. Sadomasochistic, even.
Pretty much my point. Z-K's dislike of his sister doesn't seem (for a Gawd) particularly emphatic. I've been curious about what his followers are up to besides getting their Cenobite on, ever since Skeletons of Scarwall. :)
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Not necessarily. His followers alone can acquire very nice Heal skill capabilities that are of significant benefit. He has a sister (Shelyn) that I imagine he actually talks to at least civilly from time to time.
Z-K is not a deity I would ascribe a one-dimensional personality to. Groetus and Rovagug, sure, but not Z-K.
His followers are still mortal and can't quite manage to uniformly be Always Cenobite All The Time.
What on earth are you basing this idea that Z-K maintains cordial relations with Shelyn on? Everything I have seen indicates deep inmity between Shelyn and the possessed shell that was once Dou-Bral.
As for one-note personalities, from everything I've seen and read, Z-K is the one-note god of non-consensual BDSM, the Hellraiser series of movies, and mutilation.
From here, an oooooold post (ten years!) by the one that was her original designer.
Not technically fully canon, but I don't believe there is anything in-canon that explicitly contradicts it, to date.
Even if there is, Paizo (broadly speaking) has a "line item retcon" policy - unless something newer explicitly removes or replaces entire sections, whatever newer information that contradicts older information only applies to the section that it contradicts; otherwise, generally-speaking, everything printed is considered canon.
Examples:
- Paladins of Asmodeus don't exist, but the CoT article on Asmodeus is otherwise considered canon.
- Non-evil juju-crafted undead still exist (canonically), despite the fact that the juju oracle was entirely replaced by another juju oracle with abilities that have the same names but do entirely different things. (Even though non-evil undead don't exist. Except for when they do.)
- Achaekek's statblock is no longer canon, but other things written about him in those...
Hate to say it Tacticslion, but both of your sources are most respects dead wrong, with the Mike McArtor post referencing a prototypical Shelyn with many contradictions to established canon found in her later deity write-ups in Night of the Frozen Shadows and in Inner Sea Gods. For instance, it references the Whisperer of Souls being forged by a now dead god of smiths who has never been mentioned again, The Whisperer of Souls is said to to have corrupted Zon-Kuthon (who apparently never was Dou-Bral in this incarnation) not him going outside of reality and it coming back corrupted with him, it states that she is the daughter of a now dead goddess of beauty (who apparently also died in the same event that killed the smith god, with no elaboration other than it being "a murderous spree", leaving the culprit mysterious {Rovagug, or maybe the deceased god of killing people in backstories?}) and makes no reference to her canonical father Thron (the being that would eventually become The Prince In Chains), and it states that Rovagug is able to resist her charms, which is not reiterated anywhere else and is in fact contradicted. The wiki article is flawed for much the same reasons, due to it drawing heavily from a post that was released before Pathfinder had even been released to the general public, and has been contradicted by actual content published by Paizo, showing its unreliability.
Boop
It's kind of rude to just link something without even pointing people towards what you want them to read.
Especially when it contains something that seemingly contradicts what you apparently are arguing like this "Later, presumably after the Age of Darkness, the siblings quarreled again. Zon-Kuthon responded to Shelyn's tears and her pleading with violence, until she wrested his weapon, a golden glaive, away from him, and a tenuous peace of silence and avoidance was established."
I apologize. I figured just linking the article, rather than citing snippets from most of it (and thus being called out for selective editing - I know how internet discussions trend) or just citing the whole thing (and get called out for walls of text), would be better.
Most people prefer to read walls of text when it can be properly formatted in an article form, rather than when it's posted here, according to my understanding.
However:
a tenuous peace of silence and avoidance was established.
Darker rumors put her in the bed of her half-brother, but such whispered rumors never persist for very long, as Zon-Kuthon does not tolerate such things.
Her continuing love for her brother, despite his many shortcomings, inspires her followers to persevere in the face of strong opposition.
To this day, clerics of Zon-Kuthon never harm known clerics of Shelyn—doing so results in harsh punishments that do not end with death—but sometimes they actually try to protect such clerics.
For their part, clerics of Shelyn return the favor by looking the other way when they meet known clerics or cultists of Zon-Kuthon. The exception to this rule is if the clerics or cultists are obviously harming innocents, defacing art, or otherwise being unforgivably evil. This arrangement might seem like a serious drawback for Zon-Kuthon, as other evil deities might take advantage of it to put him into a difficult position. However, no gods ever really move against Shelyn or her clergy.
Shelyn is respected and admired by all other non-evil deities. They enjoy talking to her (and occasionally trying to woo her), and they certainly like looking at her.
My arguments were two-fold:
- the concept of "cordial" relationships for a given value of "cordial" (I was not specifically referring to the talking part, though I can see how it may seem that way): they clearly have established a peace, however tenuous
- the one-note appearance of Zon-Kuthon to torment-abuse-corrupt all: he actively protects his sister's clergy from his own (lending credence to the concept of a vaguely "cordial" relationship - albeit one of silence and avoidance)
As I am not the Comrade, I can't necessarily speak for him. I was mostly just discussing things from your own word choice. I suspect we're using different values for "cordial" which is very fair. To my eye, this looks about as cordial as it gets between an evil and good deity.
Hate to say it Tacticslion, but both of your sources are most respects dead wrong, with the Mike McArtor post referencing a prototypical Shelyn with many contradictions to established canon found in her later deity write-ups in Night of the Frozen Shadows and in Inner Sea Gods.
There are contradictions, which is why I both referenced and linked to the canon policy. I first linked to the article, then pointed to the post.
Let's get into specifics!
For instance, it references the Whisperer of Souls being forged by a now dead god of smiths who has never been mentioned again,
This does not actually contradict any sort of canon. This is just something that isn't published canon, but comes from a non-published source. See their canon guidelines.
The Whisperer of Souls is said to to have corrupted Zon-Kuthon (who apparently never was Dou-Bral in this incarnation) not him going outside of reality and it coming back corrupted with him,
I don't quite understand what you're saying. Are you saying the current understanding of ZK is that he's not and never was DB, or are you suggesting that the article suggests that they're different? Either way, it's relatively academic: they could well be the same and different, simultaneously. That's kind of the horrible part of what ZK does, what with the torment and all. Besides, it's clearly DB's body, so it's not wrong to say it's him, even if there is "something else" that's "riding" or controlling it - just awful.
Regardless, I will say that this is more problematic. But again, this is why I cited the canon policy both of Paizo in broad strokes and the wiki in particular (who are not Paizo, but who are very well-researched fans). If you think something needs changing, you should contact them! Maybe even bring things up in the Discussion page!
Finally, do note that it gives the version of the story you disavow, as well as the more "official" one up above. Again, I didn't point out specifics, because, as I noted,
Not technically fully canon, but I don't believe there is anything in-canon that explicitly contradicts it, to date.
I was wrong about some of it, for sure, but then again... canon policy was mentioned for that very reason. :D
it states that she is the daughter of a now dead goddess of beauty (who apparently also died in the same event that killed the smith god, with no elaboration other than it being "a murderous spree", leaving the culprit mysterious {Rovagug, or maybe the deceased god of killing people in backstories?})
What?
Her mother is cited as being a goddess of love, not beauty - Shelyn and DB shared beauty in the ancient days of Azlant. This has been canon and supported in most every thing I've ever seen about Shelyn - including the fact that she had no glaive (her favored weapon was a dagger) and had nothing to do with love in ancient Azlanti ruins in official APs. Please let me know where, if this has been explicitly changed.
Also, it clearly implies who the murderer was: Zon-Kuthon.
The weapon was crafted by the former god of smiths, who fell during the same murderous spree that claimed Shelyn's mother. When he received it, the weapon corrupted Zon-Kuthon and convinced him to go to war against the other deities. It was during this war that Shelyn lost her mother and became goddess of love.
One could suppose that her death was entirely unrelated to ZK's war, but that's clearly not what the text is implying.
and makes no reference to her canonical father Thron (the being that would eventually become The Prince In Chains),
Actually, the very top of the article contains a link to Thron (though it does incorrectly cites him as her mother who died - oops! Someone should alert the wiki team!).
Related articles:
Thron
Prince in Chains
Zon-Kuthon
Dou-Bral
Hope that helps!
and it states that Rovagug is able to resist her charms, which is not reiterated anywhere else and is in fact contradicted.
I... what? Rovagug is harbors no violence toward her? Where is that? I'd be suuuuuper interested! That suddenly makes Shelyn even better! I'll need to review my copy of Inner Sea Gods...
The wiki article is flawed for much the same reasons, due to it drawing heavily from a post that was released before Pathfinder had even been released to the general public, and has been contradicted by actual content published by Paizo, showing its unreliability.
While it is flawed, I'm not sure if you actually looked at all the cited sources, or if you just scanned the article for "errors" or what, but it cites a large number of sources beyond said post, including:
- Campaign Setting
- A Duo of Deities, blog
- Message Board Post
- Inner Sea Deities
- City of Seven Spears
- A Song of Silver
- Gazeteer
- Night of the Frozen Flame
- Giants Revisited
- Elves of Golarion
- Knights of the Inner Sea
- Gods and Magic
- You Gotta Have Faith!
- Animal Archive
If you have problems with specific sources, again, I refer you to both Paizo's canon policy and the wiki's, and would suggest contacting their staff.
There are definitely some errors and contradictions (the most notable error is calling Thron her mother), but there is a lot of support for most of what is there, and several of your arguments come from a position of, "It's not supported enough" which doesn't actually contradict anything.
The only other near-contradiction is the role Whisperer of Souls holds compared to moving beyond reality - and it's unclear if WoS is unrelated to the quarrel, traveling, or corruption in the first place. These things are not clearly in contradiction with each other (though they easily could be).
In any event, my point wasn't to derail with canon, in specific, nor even to argue solely against Coidzor (some of the points disagreed with the Comrade, as well), so... sorry!
Back to your regularly scheduled "building ideas for someone else's concept." :)
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I see that much of our disagreement stems from us misunderstanding each other. I'll see if I can clear this up. First, when I said that Dou-Bral never existed, I meant that Zon-Kuthon was in that post there is no mention that Zon-Kuthon was ever not called Zon-Kuthon, and I was stating that it was something that clashed with established canon. Obviously we seem to have different opinions on the amount of deviance from canon a source should be allowed before it is seen as entirely non-canon. As for her possible mother's portfolio, I admit I misspoke, it was said to be love, not beauty. Still, that does not explain Shelyn (& Dou-Bral, for that matter) were portrayed asSpoiled for length:Boop
Hate to say it Tacticslion, but both of your sources are most respects dead wrong, with the Mike McArtor post referencing a prototypical Shelyn with many contradictions to established canon found in her later deity write-ups in Night of the Frozen Shadows and in Inner Sea Gods.There are contradictions, which is why I both referenced and linked to the canon policy. I first linked to the article, then pointed to the post.
Let's get into specifics!
For instance, it references the Whisperer of Souls being forged by a now dead god of smiths who has never been mentioned againThis does not actually contradict any sort of canon. This is just something that isn't published canon, but comes from a non-published source. See their canon guidelines.
The Whisperer of Souls is said to to have corrupted Zon-Kuthon (who apparently never was Dou-Bral in this incarnation) not him going outside of reality and it coming back corrupted with him
I don't quite understand what you're saying. Are you saying the current understanding of ZK is that he's not and never was DB, or are you suggesting that the article suggests that they're different? Either way, it's relatively academic: they could well be the same and different, simultaneously. That's kind of the horrible part of what ZK does, what with the torment and all. Besides, it's clearly DB's body, so it's not wrong to say it's him, even if there is "something else" that's "riding" or controlling it - just awful.Regardless, I will say that this is more problematic. But again, this is why I cited the canon policy both of Paizo in broad strokes and the wiki in particular (who are not Paizo, but who are very well-researched fans). If you think something needs changing, you should contact them! Maybe even bring things up in the Discussion page!
Finally, do note that it gives the version of the story you disavow, as well as the more "official" one up above. Again, I didn't point out specifics, because, as I noted,
Not technically fully canon, but I don't believe there is anything in-canon that explicitly contradicts it, to date.I was wrong about some of it, for sure, but then again... canon policy was mentioned for that very reason. :D
it states that she is the daughter of a now dead goddess of beauty (who apparently also died in the same event that killed the smith god, with no elaboration other than it being "a murderous spree", leaving the culprit mysterious {Rovagug, or maybe the deceased god of killing people in backstories?})What?
Her mother is cited as being a goddess of love, not beauty - Shelyn and DB shared beauty in the ancient days of Azlant. This has been canon and supported in most every thing I've ever seen about Shelyn - including the fact that she had no glaive (her favored weapon was a dagger) and had nothing to do with love in ancient Azlanti ruins in official APs. Please let me know where, if this has been explicitly changed.
Also, it clearly implies who the murderer was: Zon-Kuthon.
[Quote=]
The weapon was crafted by the former god of smiths, who fell during the same murderous spree that claimed Shelyn's mother. When he received it, the weapon corrupted Zon-Kuthon and convinced him to go to war against the other deities. It was during this war that Shelyn lost her mother and became goddess of love.One could suppose that her death was entirely unrelated to ZK's war, but that's clearly not what the text is implying.
Actually, the very top of the article contains a link to Thron (though it does incorrectly cites him as her mother who died - oops! Someone should alert the wiki team!).
and makes no reference to her canonical father Thron (the being that would eventually become The Prince In Chains),
...Shelyn and...Dou-Bral, who as the only close relatives among the major deities of Golarion shared the divine portfolio of love, beauty, art and music.I just found it odd that her mother would give her a domain she already seemed to have. As for the Whisperer of Souls, well...
[...]Dou-Bral abandoned Golarion for the far dark reaches between the planes. [...] during his travels in the void some unfathomable entity found and possessed the young god.I just took that to mean that the glaive didn't have anything to do with Dou-Bral going kookoo for Coco Puffs, at least not initially. The Rovagug-Shelyn relationship, isn't... healthy.
Shelyn's nature is to be loved, and no deity is immune to her charm. However, the gods' responses vary in accord with their natures:[...]Rovagug would place her within his eye to watch as he gloriously destroys all creation
It beats dying... I guess? Going back to the glaive, I cannot remember where I read it, but I could have sworn that somewhere it says that Dou-Bral and Shelyn used to share the glaive before he walked off with it into the void, and part of her wrestling it back was (besides thinking it was whispering to him) was symbolically taking his part of their portfolio back, but I could be wrong as I can't find where I heard that. As for where it came from, I don't think any other source has ever mentioned that so maybe it was a mysterious dead god, I don't know. Zon-Kuthon was never mentioned as killing gods in any other source that I can find, and I think if he had it would have been mentioned, seeing as killing a capital G-god is a pretty big deal and everyone/everything else that has gotten a lot of press about it (i.e. Starstone killed two gods, Rovagug was described as killing many before he was sealed, and Asmodeus claimed he killed his twin brother, but he might just made the whole thing up), so if he killed one, let alone several I would think that it would have brought up more. The closest I can find to him killing anything in particular is Thron, who was noted as not being a god, so no dice there (even then, he didn't kill him, he just made him wish he did). I suppose at the end of the day that post is like a half rotten onion. From my perspective, I say it is rotten(non-canon) and don't want anything to do with it. You look at it, cut off the rotten part (ignore the stuff that specifically goes against canon), and enjoy the rest (take things not proven as non-canonical as canon). I am not saying either way is right or wrong (well, I guess I did originally XD) merely that they are different ways of looking at things. As for the wiki, I don't have any problem with it, I guess just don't like that page.
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In any event, my point wasn't to derail with canon, in specific, nor even to argue solely against Coidzor (some of the points disagreed with the Comrade, as well), so... sorry!
Back to your regularly scheduled "building ideas for someone else's concept." :)
You posted where memory suggested I got the idea that Z-K and Shelyn have cordial (i.e., generally non-violent or better) relations. That Z-K's dogma is to at a minimum not interfere with and appears to go all the way to "make sure the beautiful lovebirds come to no harm even if you do" is icing on the cake.
Thusly I can see where Z-K and his church can be an unconventional ally to the Heirs of Aroden. It's all in the specific desires of The Script. :)
Eh, Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn have a Non-violent relationship, but I would not call it cordial. At any rate, it only extends to each other, not their churchesIn any event, my point wasn't to derail with canon, in specific, nor even to argue solely against Coidzor (some of the points disagreed with the Comrade, as well), so... sorry!
Back to your regularly scheduled "building ideas for someone else's concept." :)
You posted where memory suggested I got the idea that Z-K and Shelyn have cordial (i.e., generally non-violent or better) relations. That Z-K's dogma is to at a minimum not interfere with and appears to go all the way to "make sure the beautiful lovebirds come to no harm even if you do" is icing on the cake.
Thusly I can see where Z-K and his church can be an unconventional ally to the Heirs of Aroden. It's all in the specific desires of The Script. :)
While their lord may refrain from attempting to harm Shelyn his followers see no need to extend that courtesy to her faithful, and may especially enjoy creating canvases from the stretched skins of the Eternal Rose's followers
Turin and Malefactor: fair enough on all points!
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Turin and Malefactor: fair enough on all points!
Sorry for the walls of text, it is just Shelyn is one of my favorite goddesses in Pathfinder, so whenever she is brought up I have a lot to say on the matter. Didn't mean to go on a rant or insult anyone, and apologize if I did.
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No worries, and just so you know, this:
To this day, clerics of Zon-Kuthon never harm known clerics of Shelyn —doing so results in harsh punishments that do not end with death — but sometimes they actually try to protect such clerics.For their part, clerics of Shelyn return the favor by looking the other way when they meet known clerics or cultists of Zon-Kuthon. The exception to this rule is if the clerics or cultists are obviously harming innocents, defacing art, or otherwise being unforgivably evil. This arrangement might seem like a serious drawback for Zon-Kuthon, as other evil deities might take advantage of it to put him into a difficult position. However, no gods ever really move against Shelyn or her clergy.
.. is what I vaguely recalled. I think it is a nice twist on the usual 'grar evil vs good, grar' stuff. I didn't recall it quite on-target. No big deal, and it looks like we've got it out of our systems.
I'm glad you're a Shelyn enthusiast, Malefactor. So many PCs it seems are devotees of either Arshea (get your freak on and get bonuses for doing so) or Ragathiel (let Pharasma sort 'em out and get bonuses for doing so), it's nice to see a change.
Seems we're at least two (maybe three?) Shelyn enthusiasts, really! XD
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Seems we're at least two (maybe three?) Shelyn enthusiasts, really! XD
I was under the impression that Shelyn is a relatively popular choice for PCs (which I wholeheartedly approve of, since she's one of my favorite among the major gods). That might just be because of the circles I run in, though.