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Seems like every week there is a debate or argument on these forums in which someone ends up saying something along the lines of "much of this could have been avoided if the GM just talked to his players before the start of the campaign."
So I'm starting this thread to list/brainstorm all of the important pregame topics that should be discussed to ensure a smooth, fun experience for the group; and to discuss which of those discussion topics are likely most important.
- Campaign theme
- Available player resources
- Optional rules
- Homebrew rules
- The paladin's code
Any other ideas?
*Advanced notification of any rules discrepancy that has yet to be ruled on by the PDT.
*How you are adjudicating Take 10 rules based on the action preventing T10.
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In general, I really mean in brief you want to know:
If your players want to be on the railroad or freedom sandbox, maybe a mix of the two.
Do they want quests to be literally thrown at them or they want to go look and find them? (Everquest vs WoW)
What kind of difficulty do they want? Do they want to fight for their lives every single session or something more moderate?
How much roleplaying do they want? Hack N slash and high court intrigue are both valid game choices.
How much optimization?
What level do the players want to reach/stop the game?
What is their preferred session length?
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The setting. Urban Cheliax.... extra-Planar.... rural River Kingdoms. Or just: Very rural & low fantasy.... Urban and low fantasy.... Dungeon-Crawl and high magic
Level start to finish -- and pace for leveling-up
Campaign theme depending on the campaign (and theme) -- sometimes 'for me' it's less important.
My Homebrew rules are the same so everyone already knows them.
(I learned at PaizoCon that Greg friggin Vaughan shares one of my houserules: for healing you reroll ones! His is slightly different than mine, but still -- it's cool.)
Every Player has to have some kind of explanation of what the particular Alignment means for that PC. What does Chaotic Good mean for Your Barbarian? What does Neutral mean for Your Investigator? What does Lawful Evil mean for Your Wizard? Duh, what does Lawful Good mean for Your Paladin ....And the further away from the default conceit, or the further away from the group norm, the more the player has to explain -- and the burden is on That player to make sure it's playable with the group.
How does the GM interact with the rules? Are they the laws of the universe or are they just sort of guidelines? Is there any variation between this for heroes, NPCs or villains? What types of things are exceptions? For example, do you use the "Rule of Cool" and how is that implemented.
Seriously, there's some things civilized DMs just don't do. :P
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Over or under for toilet paper?
Seriously, there's some things civilized DMs just don't do. :P
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Tell the players your plans for what happens when a PC dies. I recently ran into this and it can be messy if not handled right.
Ravingdork pretty much summed up everything I would do. The only difference being that in my next campaign (which will hopefully start around the first of next year) Paladins and Antipaladins will not be player options. They are just too polarizing and the PCs are going to be part of a guerrilla war on an oppressive empire. Though it sounds good for a Paladin, there might be things that the PCs have to do that would make a Paladin really, really angry. My players actually came up with this idea and I agreed it was a good one.
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I go over some of this with players prior to starting a new campaign. I also try to be open to questions about what character concepts or choices do and don't make sense. I also try to provide a campaign primer (like a setting document about the area0 and a player guide prior to the campaign.
My group has been playing together for more than 15 years, however, and some things go unsaid simply because we resolved them as a group years ago.
Most intra-group problems can be solved if everyone remembers to 1) communicate like adults, and 2) don't take the game too seriously.
-Skeld
How players are expected to join or leave the group. If you're playing for any length of time, folks will drop in and out. Set a maximum and minimum group size, and ask for as much advanced notice of comings and goings as you need.
Literal house rules: Don't make noise on the back porch and wake the neighbor's baby. That sort of thing.
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Wow, how about whether PvP will be allowed. That is a big thing I get a consensus on before we start.
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We have a couple principles we follow that I think would help many groups and gaming styles....
1) If your PC is significantly stronger than the other PCs, we're going to have to adjust your PC. I know the build is legal. I know the optimization makes sense. But you're getting five attacks to everyone else's two and your attack bonus is better. We're going to rebuild your PC to make it more fair.
2) All treasure is shared no matter what. Whenever a Cloak of Resistance, for example, is found then we look at which PC needs it the most and that PC gets it. Whichever front-liner needs the AC bump the most gets the AC item. Etcetera.
3) No PvP ever. Not ever. No matter what.
4) Everything is teamwork. Teamwork first. We share all campaign information and don't have anybody say things like, "Well my PC would be selfish -- and not tell anyone what he learned -- and keep the ring he picked from someone's pocket -- and act like a douche -- and not wake up the other PCs when on guard duty after he hears something in the woods." The PCs have to act as a team. We don't friggin care whther it's something your PC may or may not do. Fix your PC's personality, ass-hat.
....But, you know, this is all stuff maybe for another thread topic.
4) Everything is teamwork. Teamwork first. We share all campaign information and don't have anybody say things like, "Well my PC would be selfish -- and not tell anyone what he learned -- and keep the ring he picked from someone's pocket -- and act like a douche -- and not wake up the other PCs when on guard duty after he hears something in the woods." The PCs have to act as a team. We don't friggin care whther it's something your PC may or may not do. Fix your PC's personality, ass-hat.
Yup. This.
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My take on alignments (open to negotiation)
Specific restrictions on what is allowed
The theme of the campaign and any information needed to create PCs that will feel fun to play there
Players' expectations
Houserules
How we will tackle issues that arise during the game (including new restrictions or houserules)
Over or under for toilet paper?
Seriously, there's some things civilized DMs just don't do. :P
And of course this varies depending on if the host has curious cats.
Magic Walmart or not...
Crafting...
Your view on Take 10/20...
Traits needing a background...(always find how many PCs have been bullied in childhood amusing)
Tell the players your plans for what happens when a PC dies. I recently ran into this and it can be messy if not handled right.
This one is a great addition! I've had GMs who forced the player to sit on a couch twiddling their thumbs for hours just because unlucky rolls killed his character early on. Talk about boring!
I've had other GMs, allow the player to play a companion creature or NPC for the rest of the current game (sometimes even borrowing it from other PCs with their permission), bringing in a new character in the next.
Yet other GMs insisted players have backup characters ready to go, and they were introduced more or less immediate (in a game of unlimited imagination, it's really easy to make up a reason for the sudden appearance of a new character).
Some GMs will let your gear go to the party, others come up with ways to avoid the power boost. Some will say you come back in a level lower, creating a potential death spiral.
There's just all kinds of things that could be discussed on this topic alone.
Wow, how about whether PvP will be allowed. That is a big thing I get a consensus on before we start.
By default this is a cooperative game. Unless specifically stated otherwise early on, I would hope it is understood by all that PVP is generally not okay.
Maybe storytelling tropes? I guess that's a subset of "theme."
I was painting pretty broad strokes in the OP. Don't be afraid to get more specific.
1) If your PC is significantly stronger than the other PCs, we're going to have to adjust your PC. I know the build is legal. I know the optimization makes sense. But you're getting five attacks to everyone else's two and your attack bonus is better. We're going to rebuild your PC to make it more fair.
Wouldn't it be better to bring the other players up, then to bring one down? You don't punish the smart player with good system mastery. You teach those with less knowledge fun new stuff.
Here is my list:
For more ideas, especially about identifying aspects of 'fun', click on my name, and select the "Optimizing Pathfinder for Fun" spoiler.
How does everyone have fun?
I would start by going over the different ways the players and GM have fun and discussing them as a group. This is NOT the time to argue, it is a time to be HONEST with yourself and the group, and express and LISTEN to everyone's opinions. Do you like Rollplaying more then Roleplaying? Be open about it! Your not doing yourself or anyone else a favor by pretending to like things you don't really like. Be open to new experiences and playstyles, but express your desires and expectations honestly. Come to some kind of consensus with the GM and players about how you will all enjoy the game.In addition to how YOU have fun, this is a great time to discuss other aspects of play, such as:
Again, BE HONEST with yourself and the people you play with.
- House rules.
- Use of computers and/or phones and access to reference material at the table. In general, characters should have access to all information about their own characters, but most GMs frown on players looking at information about enemies. Reading the adventure path or module is usually very strictly forbidden.
- What books and material are allowed in the game and what restrictions are there. Do these restrictions apply equally on both sides of the screen?
- Dice handling and GM and/or players ignoring dice. This usually take one of three forms:
-GM roles in the open, results are not altered by the GM
-GM rolls in secret, and may or may not follow the dice. Requires the players to trust the GM will fudge, but they will not know when, for fun to be maintained.
-GM dictates action in some opposed circumstances without dice rolls. Requires players to trust the GM will dictate the action for the benefit of the game (without the 'illusion' of dice rolls) for fun to be maintained.- Amount of table time dedicated to combat, NPC interactions, and exploration.
- Amount of expected wealth, mundane and magic item availability.
- How downtime and/or crafting will be handled.
- Tracking of encumbrance, minor items, ammunition, rations, water, mounts, living expenses, etc.
- Tracking of important information such as HP, spells cast, limited abilities used, harmful conditions, etc.
- If tracking discrepancies occur, will there be punitive action?
- Level advancement - will the game use an XP advancement track or will leveling be handled a different way?
- How will PC death be handled and how will bringing new PCs into the game be handled. Note: I recommend bringing in new PCs at the same level as the rest of the party, but with the starting wealth of a character one level lower. I also disagree with the designers about allowing characters to exceed WBL if they have crafting feats. I feel this unbalances the game in favor of the classes that generally need the least help (especially wizards) and breaks the assumptions that a PC used all his powers to get his starting wealth.
- Expectations about what general types of encounters the PCs can expect. Players should be able to make informed decisions about character aspects such as favored enemy, deity and domains, schools, etc.
- How alignment will be handled. Is it polar (the rules/setting default) or more of a subjective "realistic" situation.
Level of gore and sexuality in the game as well as any topics that players would have issues with encountering in game.
- Out of game issues like food, drugs/alcohol/smoking, money, attendance, guest etiquette, etc.
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1) If your PC is significantly stronger than the other PCs, we're going to have to adjust your PC.
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Wouldn't it be better to bring the other players up, then to bring one down? You don't punish the smart player with good system mastery. You teach those with less knowledge fun new stuff.
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Yes. Sometimes.
Usually its easier to 'fix' one PC than the other five, though.
And the principle works both ways.
I'll give three examples from the last couple years. One PC is a Druid and built his PC the way he really wanted to play it. It was a bit weaker than the other PCs and I wanted to give him a bump. And, um, also, the group did not have a healer. I decided to allow his Druid to also choose spells from the Cleric list. And Channel Energy like a Cleric. I found a way to include, in a treasure hoard, a CHA Headband (since he wasn't built with CHA) and gave him Selective Channeling for free. He became a good bit stronger, but most of the power came from healing the rest of the PCs so it worked out.
Another PC is a Ranger archer. Not even a Fighter archer which we all know is a stronger build. But especially since he wasn't on the front line risking getting hit like the front-line PCs were, the fact that he had more attacks, and higher 'to-hit' rolls, and did more damage, was just flat-out unfair to the other Players. ....Now, we're all mature adults and and no one minded or was too bothered, certainly no one complained. But I didn't like it as DM. So when he and I went out to dinner one afternoon I showed him his PC's +18/+18/+17/+13/+13 compared to the other PCs' +15/+10, +15/+10, +16/+11 and +12/+12/+12. And the damage was also comparable. I asked him if he could enjoy playing his PC if he traded one or two of his Feats, Manyshot or Rapid Shot or whatnot, for a couple other Feats. He agreed. I think he may have picked up Toughness or Iron Will or maybe even Nimble Moves or somesuch. Ultimately he became more equitable to the other PCs and no hay was made over it. I will say this, though, I'm confident that my pre-campaign mentioning that I would do that had to have helped. The Player was not caught flat-footed at all, and he's still playing the PC he wants to play.
A third PC is gestalt Ninja/Sorcerer. Catfolk. Newer to the d20 System and built his character for fun -- not optimized. Barely even playable. I remember one time we were in a combat and he was using another Fireball and we were concerned about his remaining 3rd level spells -- the PCs knew they needed (HAD to have) a Dispel Magic for something soon -- and there was still likely another combat after the one they were in before the Dispel Magic was brought up. So the Players expressed concern (Remember this guy is a newer Player and helpful advice is called for sometimes.) at his running out of spells. Well, he declared, he had plenty of Dispel Magic spells and using a Fireball here was wise. ....He thought Spells per Day meant he had 4 Fireballs, 4 Lightning Bolts, 4 Dispel Magics and 4 Hastes PER DAY. That's how he'd been playing the whole campaign. Spells per day was for each Spell Known, instead of for each Spell level. The table was aghast! And I leaned over to the Player next to me and whispered -- in ALL sincerity, "And he still sucks!" And the Player started laughing. Because it was absolutely true. The poor Ninja/Sorcerer was dramatically underpowered. ....So, at some point I took the Player aside and bumped up his PC. More spells, more CHA, maybe a couple Feats, whatever, and he slowly started catching up to the other PCs. (He no longer had, though, 4 Fireballs, 4 Dispel Magics, 4 Hastes, etc.)
Ultimately, whatever list you're making for this Thread, talking to the Players beforehand is a good idea. I do think it helped for me recently when I had a Player nerf his PC to make it more in-line to the other PCs.
1) Rules for Rolling
2) Optimization level for characters
3) Amount of Combat
4) Source books allowed
5) Defining the alignments
6) IRL Food and Drink expectations
7) Campaign Tone. IE Serious vs Goofball
8) How you intend to do in game rulings
- House Rules
- Game style / expectations
- Food / Snacks / Refrigerator
- Permitted content
- How rules adjudications will be handled
- DM philosophy on munchkins / power gaming.
Those are some interesting examples, Molech.
It's not the way I would have handled those situations, but it is very insightful to see how others work things out in their groups.
At the beginning of each session, the GM should take a few moments to review every player's character sheets. This isn't designed to try to catch shenanigans. It's to help the GM refresh his/her memory about all the character's capabilities and limitations. The GM should take a few minutes to check up on any class abilities, feats, spells, etc. the characters have that the GM is unfamiliar with. This should be repeated in more depth each time the characters level up.
A great idea!
I do this already, incidentally, since I keep electronic records of everyone's characters and, if there are significant changes, print out new copies before each game. This way, everyone is using the same format, and everything goes through me by default.
- DM philosophy on munchkins / power gaming.
Also, discussing the definitions for munchkins/power gaming in addition to one's acceptance/rejection/philosophy of them.
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- What toppings do you want on your pizza?
- Where should we get our pizza from?
- Why don't you like pizza and what's wrong with you?
- What toppings do you want on your pizza?
- Where should we get our pizza from?
- Why don't you like pizza and what's wrong with you?
Pineapple?
PINEAPPLE!?
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Pineapple?!
Really? Pineapple?
I don't know if anyone of you have played in Mike Johnson's PbPs for Medieval Europe or Post-Apocalyptic Cthulhu -- but Mike is in my homegame group and, when we order pizza (Full disclosure, I'm the one who pays for the damn things.), we'll get a couple typical pepperoni pies and supreme pies -- and a Pineapple & Ham for Mike. Since he likes those. (But none of us really do.)
....And when the pizzas arrive, Mike eats slice after slice of pepperoni, and slice after slice of supreme. And the next thing you know there isn't anything left but that god-offal Pineapple crap cuz Mike ate someone else's share of the others!
Damn Pineapple pizza!
- What toppings do you want on your pizza?
- Where should we get our pizza from?
- Why don't you like pizza and what's wrong with you?
I love pizza. But with lactose intolerance, the other players won't let me love pizza.