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If my character wants to know the details about a spell an ally (PC character) casts, can I use spellcraft in PFS to idenify it as it's cast? Or is that caught under the PVP clause because I'm rolling spellcraft "opposed" to their spell DC?
I'm asking from a role playing stance. I, the player, can just look up the spell. But in role playing my character, the character may or may not understand the spell being cast.
I'm often told that I can't use diplomacy "against" other players due to the PVP rule, but I'm not sure how spellcraft works here, since it seems much less offensive/abusive than the effects that diplomacy or intimidate could bring.
And no, not looking argue this. Just wondering, yay or nay, can my character use spellcraft on other players to understand what spells they are casting in PFS?
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If my character wants to know the details about a spell an ally (PC character) casts, can I use spellcraft in PFS to idenify it as it's cast? Or is that caught under the PVP clause because I'm rolling spellcraft "opposed" to their spell DC?
I'm asking from a role playing stance. I, the player, can just look up the spell. But in role playing my character, the character may or may not understand the spell being cast.
I'm often told that I can't use diplomacy "against" other players due to the PVP rule, but I'm not sure how spellcraft works here, since it seems much less offensive/abusive than the effects that diplomacy or intimidate could bring.
And no, not looking argue this. Just wondering, yay or nay, can my character use spellcraft on other players to understand what spells they are casting in PFS?
Have you looked up the rules in question? They make it quite clear.
In keeping with the “cooperate” theme of the Pathfinder
Society, player-versus-player conflict should be kept
to a minimum. While circumstances may arise where
friendly fire occurs, a player must always receive the
other player’s consent before performing such actions.
Deliberate death of a character at the hands of another
character should never occur. This rule does not apply
in situations where a character is not acting of his own
initiative, such as being mind-controlled by an NPC and
forced to attack a fellow Pathfinder.
...
Player versus Player (PVP): Player-versus-player
conflict occurs when one PC attempts, of his or her own
volition, to kill, harm, or otherwise contribute to the
injury of another PC. Player-versus-player conflict is
strictly prohibited. See page 7 for more details.
Nothing in there in any way implies that using spellcraft to find out what another player is casting is illegal.
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check
The people that told you that you can't use diplomacy against other player characters because of pvp are also wrong. You can't use diplomacy against other player characters because of diplomacy.
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And no, not looking argue this. Just wondering, yay or nay, can my character use spellcraft on other players to understand what spells they are casting in PFS?
Yes. In fact, I require it for other characters to know what spell is being cast when they party doesn't have the ability to tell each other what they are doing.
Why do you ask?
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As claudekennilol elucidated, PvP inherently means hostile intent - if there is no hostile intent, it is not PvP.
You (and others) are taking the word "opposed" and conflating it with "hostile." It is not the same at all.
Gods forbid two PCs play chess while resting - they'd be making opposed checks against each other!
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Some people go way too far in declaring something PVP. PVP is all about OOC conflicts.
For example, suppose my character is Fascinated. I might tell the wizard who's about the strafe the BBEG that "it's fine to send one of your Magic Missile bolts my way - the damage won't be a problem, and it'll wake me up". OOC I'm okay with the attack, so it's not Player vs. Player, it's one PC using a rough method to help his ally.
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There are situations where it may become necessary, but I would not suggest doing so without a good reason.
Don't see it as PVP
I think anytime a character can't or won't communicate with their allies for some reason, Spellcraft could come up. Definitely not PvP in my book.
Off the top of my head, a tongues-cursed oracle, a caster in an area of silence, a stealth situation, a social encounter... all of these would be situations where, if it's important for a PC to know what the other PC is casting, you might need to Spellcraft it.
Outside of those sorts of situations, I usually assume a PC is telling another PC in-character what they're up to.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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There are situations where it may become necessary, but I would not suggest doing so without a good reason.
Don't see it as PVP
I think anytime a character can't or won't communicate with their allies for some reason, Spellcraft could come up. Definitely not PvP in my book.
Off the top of my head, a tongues-cursed oracle, a caster in an area of silence, a stealth situation, a social encounter... all of these would be situations where, if it's important for a PC to know what the other PC is casting, you might need to Spellcraft it.
Outside of those sorts of situations, I usually assume a PC is telling another PC in-character what they're up to.
Good examples. ^^
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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To be clear, the Spellcraft roll isn't even an opposed check - the DC to identify a spell is set by the level of the spell, but it's still a simple, unopposed roll
In the same manner, you could roll Knowledge(Local) to be aware that an Elf in your group is immune to Sleep, for instance. No opposition involved.
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I wouldn't typically bother going through having someone identify the spell unless it was a situation like in the examples Terminalmancer points out. However, if a PC is relying on the caster shouting out the spell that they are casting in the middle of combat in order to prepare for it (like with an immediate action), I might be inclined to let any enemies who can understand the shouting PC react as if they have that information as well.
In most cases it won't really matter.
A common example is a PC saying, "Wait until I cast haste to charge into combat!" If the enemy is within earshot and can understand what was said, I'd probably have them react based on that knowledge without making a spellcraft roll as well. If the tactic was set up prior to rolling imitative, the. There's be nothing for the NPC to overhear.
And just to agree with what others have said, it's not PvP to use Spellcraft. I think the Season 8 guide did a good job of clarifying what PvP is. It expanded it to situations other than killing another PC, but it didn't limit everything. I guess the bigger question is why would another PC care if you're using Spellcraft on them? I guess maybe some Sovereign Court missions/faction card items it might matter. Other than that, most of the faction v faction stuff went away with the old faction missions.
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For example, suppose my character is Fascinated. I might tell the wizard who's about the strafe the BBEG that "it's fine to send one of your Magic Missile bolts my way - the damage won't be a problem, and it'll wake me up". OOC I'm okay with the attack, so it's not Player vs. Player, it's one PC using a rough method to help his ally.
This is off the original topic, but I wouldn't (unless the wizard is already considering it). Not because I worry about the PVP aspect, but because my character is fascinated. I feel that since my character wouldn't be able to make the suggestion, I shouldn't either.*
*Exception made for a table with new players who may not know the rules about snapping people out of the fascinated condition. And I'm OK with people who are still learning the game making these suggestions to each other.
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heck, before I cast invisibility sphere I often yell out "I'm Teleporting us out of here!" - but then I've told the other characters this, so hopefully they remember to go into 'stealth mode' when I do it...
I might do this if I know we are entering an encounter, but I don't perceive a threat. (Foresight Wizard, so I go in the Surprise Round, and if I beat all the enemies in Init, I might not know what the possible threat is. This might let us turn an ambush around...)
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Why do you ask?
As in the OP, just curious. I know I've been told we can't use most other skills on other players, hostile intent or no, so I was wondering if it applied here too.
Been told we can't use Ride on other players. Can't use Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive or Disguise. Can't use combat maneuvers on allies, even if totally non-lethal (like grappling them so they can't force combat during a peaceful encounter). Can't use slight of hand to steal (or borrow without asking). Stealth has very little effect on players in PFS. Might have missed a few.
As for out of character communication between party members, some GMs don't mind, while others are annoyed and ban it. The classic issue is the player character that is harmed by cure spells, but forgets to mention it at the start of the session. A GM's policy on out of character communication really comes in here, as it can mean the death of the character.
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Been told we can't use Ride on other players.
Master blaster (riding another bipedal PC) isn't really in the rules, so you should expect a lot of table variation, with the table heavily slanted towards "oh hell no"
Can't use Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive or Disguise.
Diplomacy does not work against player characters
Check: You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check.
Intimidate is definitely PVP. You're imposing a condition on your party members
I don't know where they're coming from with bluff and sense motive. party members sneak around each other all the time. Half the kitsune i see at cons are pretending to not be kitsune.
Can't use combat maneuvers on allies, even if totally non-lethal (like grappling them so they can't force combat during a peaceful encounter)
That is VERY much PVP unless the other player is fine with it. you're taking away the other players ability to act on the scene.
Can't use slight of hand to steal (or borrow without asking).
Taking someone elses stuff is also very much PVP. If the fighter can't cut off your hand for stealing, you can't take his stuff.
As for out of character communication between party members, some GMs don't mind, while others are annoyed and ban it. The classic issue is the player character that is harmed by cure spells, but forgets to mention it at the start of the session. A GM's policy on out of character communication really comes in here, as it can mean the death of the character.
Table variation on corner cases happens.
Again, you're asking for one thing when you mean something else (or two completely unrelated something elses here) and we have to try to figure out what you're really asking. Worse, we're going to assume thats what you're doing on EVERY question you ask. It makes for a really weird conversation.
If you're asking something just ask it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Re: combat manuevers to prevent allies from tanking peaceful encounters.
That doesn't really prevent it from turning into a combat encounter, since by definition, you are now in combat. It just means it may be a three way fight.
But this is a case where community play guidelines and respecting other people's play style comes in on both sides of the table.
Me: "As I am talking to her, I turn on my hypnotic gaze"
GM: "Okay, combat begins"
Other PCs: "What the heck! We thought you had a plan!"
Me: "I did have a plan. Try diplomacy, if that doesn't work, hypnotic gaze."
OP: "That is a really lousy plan!"
Last Scenario.
OP: "Stop using that plan, it never works!"
Me: "Hey, they failed their save that one time."
OP: "Yes, but their two friends didn't. So it still didn't work!"
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Why do you ask?As in the OP, just curious. I know I've been told we can't use most other skills on other players, hostile intent or no, so I was wondering if it applied here too.
As mentioned above, you aren't using Spellcraft on the other players, you're using it to gain knowledge.
Why would you want to use skills on other PCs?
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Why would you want to use skills on other PCs?
Sovereign court faction card double dip for one, where you can tick a box if you don't reveal what faction you're in
"I need to go see this nobel about joining the sovereign cour..liberty's edge.
"Wait, i never see you at the meetings...
"erm.. I'm a master of disguise. I was the caydenite"
"we have a lot of caydenites there
"see! its working!
*bluff*
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Heal skill comes up a lot for using on other PCs as well. :)
PvP is often hard to pin down, especially in an org play environment with sometimes competing factions. That which is good for the Chel - er, Dark Archive is often bad for the Andor - er, Liberty's Edge. That said, unless your Spellcraft check is to trigger something else somehow (such as warning your opponents for some reason) I'm not sure how anyone would construe it as PvP.
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As mentioned above, you aren't using Spellcraft on the other players, you're using it to gain knowledge.
Why would you want to use skills on other PCs?
Can you use knowledge checks on the other PCs? For infomation which would be in a history book, part of their race or religion, or otherwise decernable by just looking at them and remembering something you had read earlier.
If one, then the other, I suppose.
Though regarding spellcraft, there are a few in-game options which are designed to mislead opponents as to the nature of cast spells (Rashaka Bloodline Arcana, in example). Should affect allies too, if allied PCs are rolling spellcraft.
As for the why, the main reason is roleplaying.
I mean, if you are actually the character, you'd only be doing things that made sense to your character, so spellcraft, sense motive and knowledge checks would important to understanding those in your party (especially those roleplaying enigma character builds).
As for diplomacy and such, if the goal in PFS is to get along for a common goal, being able to shift attitudes either through rational converstation, outright lies, or empty threats, is very key to role playing your character. Especially since player characters are not always reoccuring members of the party during each session.
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As for diplomacy and such, if the goal in PFS is to get along for a common goal, being able to shift attitudes either through rational converstation, outright lies, or empty threats, is very key to role playing your character. Especially since player characters are not always reoccuring members of the party during each session.
Riight. But you see those other people sitting at the table with you? They also want to roleplay THEIR characters. And you can't take that ability away from them with a diplomacy (or worse, intimidate) check that forces them to act friendly towards you.
I mean, if you want to try to impress Leafytree with a diplomacy check to join in the elven tea ceremony he's doing in the middle of the mission briefing that's fine. But its entirely up to bob how leafy tree reacts to that.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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As for the why, the main reason is roleplaying.
As for diplomacy and such, if the goal in PFS is to get along for a common goal, being able to shift attitudes either through rational converstation, outright lies, or empty threats, is very key to role playing your character. Especially since player characters are not always reoccuring members of the party during each session.
You don't need to roll dice to roleplay with other players. They are really there. Your character makes a persuasive argument and the other player decides if it convinces their character. If you both agree to it, you could use dice to decide, but that is not the baseline assumption of roleplay.
Anecdote: I once let a friend's rogue steal a McGuffin from my character in a PFS game. He rolled Sleight of Hand, I beat it with my Perception. But then my Bluff beat his Sense Motive to pretend my character hadn't seen. Later in the scenario, when we needed the McGuffin, my character told his to retrieve it, and we had a laugh as he roleplayed realizing he'd been caught.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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For example, suppose my character is Fascinated. I might tell the wizard who's about the strafe the BBEG that "it's fine to send one of your Magic Missile bolts my way - the damage won't be a problem, and it'll wake me up". OOC I'm okay with the attack, so it's not Player vs. Player, it's one PC using a rough method to help his ally.This is off the original topic, but I wouldn't (unless the wizard is already considering it). Not because I worry about the PVP aspect, but because my character is fascinated. I feel that since my character wouldn't be able to make the suggestion, I shouldn't either.*
*Exception made for a table with new players who may not know the rules about snapping people out of the fascinated condition. And I'm OK with people who are still learning the game making these suggestions to each other.
Suggesting the missiles to snap me out of it - sure, I can see why you wouldn't want the Fascinated PC suggesting things to the other players. That's like IC planning when one of the planners is indisposed.
But the PVP component is about how the players feel OOC about getting zapped with a magic missile. If a player doesn't want to be zapped, then zapping him is not okay. If he says go ahead, then it's not PVP because there's no "versus".
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Why do you ask?As in the OP, just curious. I know I've been told we can't use most other skills on other players, hostile intent or no, so I was wondering if it applied here too.As mentioned above, you aren't using Spellcraft on the other players, you're using it to gain knowledge.
Why would you want to use skills on other PCs?
Only real time I've seen it come up in scenarios is with Dominate Person. And one other time that involved a bizarre set of circumstances that actually created a PVP scenario which the players asked for.
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Several of the checks that are being contested in this thread baffle me. They're not active choices. Spellcraft, Knowledge, Sense Motive, Perception,... Most of the examples given are cases where the "check" is to determine what the PC sees/remembers/notices/identifies.
These aren't active checks. They're passive. They just happen. The PC doesn't decide to perform a spellcraft check. The PC sees a spell affect and may recognize it. The check is to determine if the PC recognizes what he saw. He doesn't *do* anything. He just recognizes it or doesn't.
Some of these same checks can be made actively. For example, I see an unusual looking fellow. I spend a moment looking at details and pondering them. That's a take-10 on Knowledge to identify. If I just roll, it's whatever my first impression is.
None of these first-impression, passive checks count as Player vs anything. They're just the normal act of visual (or auditory or...) processing that people do.
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As for diplomacy and such, if the goal in PFS is to get along for a common goal, being able to shift attitudes either through rational converstation, outright lies, or empty threats, is very key to role playing your character. Especially since player characters are not always reoccuring members of the party during each session.Riight. But you see those other people sitting at the table with you? They also want to roleplay THEIR characters. And you can't take that ability away from them with a diplomacy (or worse, intimidate) check that forces them to act friendly towards you.
I mean, if you want to try to impress Leafytree with a diplomacy check to join in the elven tea ceremony he's doing in the middle of the mission briefing that's fine. But its entirely up to bob how leafy tree reacts to that.
It's an opposed roll, so if they want a character that is not easily persuaded, they could build such a character. Not unlike going with high fortitude if you don't want your character subject to poison.
Regarding role playing, if your character has shoddy social skills, your roleplaying should reflect this. If you, the player, have shoddy social skills and your character has good social skills, your lack of skill shouldn't be reflected by your character because the character is the one that is socializing in-game. Just like roleplaying a strong character when the player isn't strong at all. The roleplaying of a character's ability shouldn't be affected by the lack of real ability on the player.
And I'd much rather have players roll intimidate for their character, than actually try to "role play" intimidation in a serious capacity (you know, in a way that actually convinces me, the player, to do what they want to do).
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Several of the checks that are being contested in this thread baffle me. They're not active choices. Spellcraft, Knowledge, Sense Motive, Perception,... Most of the examples given are cases where the "check" is to determine what the PC sees/remembers/notices/identifies.
These aren't active checks. They're passive.
I don't think you have to do them if you don't want to. That would be how I would distinguish between passive and active skills, passive skills can't be turned off (or otherwise require intentionally suppressing them). SR is probably the closest ability to a passive skill in pathfinder.
But regarding those checks, am I allowed, for example, to attempt knowledge checks on the other players?
In example, rather than actually socializing with the other players, I could do a bunch of knowledge/appraise checks and have the GM inform me about the other players. Sure, I couldn't get everything, since some details unique to the character wouldn't be found in a book or via rumors, but race, ethnicity, details on equipment, notable achievements, and so forth, could all be determined without actually interacting with the other players.
And since the other players are probably close to my level, said knowledge checks are likely pretty easy.
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It's an opposed roll, so if they want a character that is not easily persuaded, they could build such a character. Not unlike going with high fortitude if you don't want your character subject to poison.
Despite the fact that he's not dead, I'm going to channel the spirit of lewis black here for a moment.
No.
in case you can't see that
Not just no, Hell no.
Not just hell no hell no with a half twist.
You cannot impose your will on the other players. you VERY much cannot justify that with "well if they didn't want to have me impose my will on them they should have had the defenses against it.". Its the EXACT same thing as throwing a dominate person on them and then claiming they should have had a better will save, or stabbing them and claiming they should have had a better armor class.
That is not their fault for not having defenses that is your fault for trying to blatantly loophole the PVP rules.
Worst of all, you tried to have everyone here sign off on blatant PVP with the logic riddled argument of
I can use spellcraft on party members
Spellcraft is a skill
Therefore i can use skills on my party members.
No, dear gods, no. That argument is an insult to sentience.
I can use spellcraft on party members
Spellcraft is a skill
Therefore i can use SOME skills on my party members under SOME circumstances.
Those last sentences are NOT the same thing. Neither the rules of the game or in life are completely binary.
Second, as a minor point, you're factually wrong. Diplomacy is a set DC modified by your charisma. So your logic is terrible AND your facts are wrong.
Just like roleplaying a strong character when the player isn't strong at all. The roleplaying of a character's ability shouldn't be affected by the lack of real ability on the player.
So because you have decided that your fellow gamers are not properly role playing their characters in how they react to your characters diplomacy score, you think it's fair to try to take player agency away from them and MAKE them role play how YOU think they should be role playing.
Yes. That is what you're trying to do. No. You are not being clever in hiding it. Yes. You really are trying to do that. No. I do not believe your protestations otherwise.
Do not remove player agency is the cardinal rule of role playing. The DM has limited ability to do this as neccesary (charms, grappling) In PFS you cannot do that at all. What you're talking about doing is the role playing equivilant of launching a tac nuke at your neighbors house because you don't like how the daisy's clash with the petunias.Its disproportionate on multiple levels of magnitude. It requires absurdist levels of self involvement to enact a major imposition on someone elses role playing to avoid such a minor slight to your own.
And I'd much rather have players roll intimidate for their character, than actually try to "role play" intimidation in a serious capacity (you know, in a way that actually convinces me, the player, to do what they want to do).
I would much rather have my character dropped to half hit points then to -87. That does not give you leave to drop my character to half hit points. Sometimes BOTH ideas are bad and you don't do EITHER of them.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Even NPCs are not automatically affected by diplomacy. There are some things people just won't do.
(Of course, if you really want to make your PC hard to persuade, that is easy. Just say "My PC is Hostile to you. If it wasn't for the decemverates stupid rules about cooperating, I wouldn't be caught dead around you. Oh, and since he hates pathfinders, it is +5 DC to diplomacy to affect him.")
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Diplomacy is not an opposed skill. It has a DC defined in the skill based on the current attitude of the target, and modified by certain circumstances. There is no roll that an NPC can make or skill ranks that it can have to make using Diplomacy more difficult. The DC also isn't based off WIS bonus like with Intimidate. Or Sense Motive like with Bluff.
Allowing Diplomacy to work on PCs is just a bad idea, and it is rightly prohibited by the rules of the core game, not the PFS PvP rule.
Spellcraft is not Diplomacy, and making a Spellcraft roll to know if you recognize a spell is not PvP. Using the knowledge you gain from Spellcraft to counter the spell cast by another member of your party would be PvP.
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@BNW: No, that is not the direction I'm going with this, nor intended. Just curiosity about spellcraft, lead to curiosity about other skills I had formerly consider banned via the PVP clause of PFS. No grand plans with this, nor any loopholes. I'm just curious, and asking regarding roleplaying of my character in PFS, since the skills are supposed to reflect my character.
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But the real question is, is it PvP to roll a Perception check versus my Stealth check?
However, "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
Since your active check forced their passive check, I would say you would be guilty of initiating PvP by making the Stealth check in the first place. :)
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But the real question is, is it PvP to roll a Perception check versus my Stealth check?However, "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
Since your active check forced their passive check, I would say you would be guilty of initiating PvP by making the Stealth check in the first place. :)
Eureka! That is it! I can can get a reactive perception check to hear a beetle crawling in the pit trap that is out of sight because it it concealed, and that will give my character a hint to search for the pit trap!
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@BNW: I just want to say, that while I agree with you wholeheartedly, I also see why someone might say the things that Murdock Mudeater is saying.
Imagine, you have a very diplomatic character, and no matter how well you roll, your "friends" and fellow players all tease you about your character saying really dumb stuff and generally making a fool of themselves. That's going to make you feel really crappy and want them to stop and treat what your character is doing within the light of what your character is actually doing.
There are better, more adult ways, of handling things, than trying to enforce a diplomacy roll or intimidate roll on the other characters, obviously. One of them is handling it person to person with those who are treating you poorly.