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The builds listed are for PFS
I'm building a character and I'm debating between the following builds to make a divine caster that has a monk feel to it.
Race: Half-Elf
Racial Traits:
* Kindred-Raised - +2cha & +2 to another stat.
Curse: Haunted
Traits: Bifurcated Magic: Oracle & Monk, Fate's Favored
STR 7
DEX 16+2
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 17+2
-4,10,3,0,-2,13
1) Scaled Monk 1: Bab +1, Weapon Finesse (lvl 1), Dodge (monk)
2) Ascetic Oracle 1: Bab +1, Ascetic Armor (revelation)
3) Ascetic Oracle 2: Bab +2, Extra Revelation: Fleet (lvl 3)
4) Ascetic Oracle 3: Bab +3, Martial Disciple (revelation), +1 Cha
5) Ascetic Oracle 4: Bab +4, Additional Traits (lvl 5)
6) Ascetic Oracle 5: Bab +5,
7) Ascetic Oracle 6: Bab +5, Crane Style (lvl 7)
8) Ascetic Oracle 7: Bab +6, Oracular Spellstrike (revelation), +1 Cha
9) Ascetic Oracle 8: Bab +7/+2, Osyluth Guile (lvl 9)
10) Ascetic Oracle 9: Bab +8/+3
11) Ascetic Oracle 10: Bab +8/+3, Divine Interference (lvl 11)
12) Ascetic Oracle 11: Bab +9/+4, +1 Cha, Absence of Form (revelation)
Additional Traits: Aldori Defenses + Magical Lineage: X Spell
@ lvl 12
HP: 75
AC: 44 (58 fighting defensively)
Skill Points: 48
Flurry of Blows Atk: 6dex + 9bab + 5dpower + 3gmw = 23/23/18
Dmg: 2d8 + 6dex + 5dpower + 3gmw = 2d6 + 14 (monk's robes included)
Saves: 10Fort/11Reflex/12Will (with a +3 Cloak of Resistance)
Spells:
1: 6+2
2: 6+2
3: 6+2
4: 6+2
5: 4+1
Ancient Lorekeeper Spells: 0: Touch of Fatigue, 1: ???, 2: Scorching Ray?, 3: Vampiric Touch, 4: ???, 5: ???
AC: 10base + 6dex + 8cha monk + 8armor + 3aona + 4sofaith + 3mvest + 1ioun + 1dodge feat +1 monk's robes = 45ac
Fighting Defensively: + 6crane + 8cha osyluth = 59ac
Sacred Fist Build
Race: Human
Deity: Cayden Cailean
Traits: 1st - Fate’s Favored, 2nd - Free
1st Blessing: Charm
2nd Blessing: Travel
STR 16+2
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 15+2
CHA 7
10, 2, 2, 2, 10, -4
1) Sacred Fist 1: Bab +0, Deflect Arrows (lvl 1), Weapon Prof: Rapier (WP), IUS (SFist)
2) Sacred Fist 2: Bab +1,
3) Sacred Fist 3: Bab +2, Wfocus: Rapier (lvl 3)
4) Sacred Fist 4: Bab +3, +1 Wis
5) Sacred Fist 5: Bab +3, Crusader’s Flurry (lvl 5)
6) Sacred Fist 1: Bab +4, Toughness (WPFCB)
7) Sacred Fist 2: Bab +5, **FREE (lvl 7), Snake Style (WP Style)
8) Sacred Fist 3: Bab +6//+1, +1 Wis
9) Sacred Fist 4: Bab +6/+1, Dimensional Agility (lvl 9)
10) Sacred Fist 5: Bab +7/+2
11) Sacred Fist 6: Bab +8/+3, Divine Interference (lvl 11)
12) Sacred Fist 7: Bab +9/+4, FREE (WPFCB), +1 Wis
**Retrain 7th level feat at 10th level to Quicken Blessing: Dimensional Hop
@ lvl 12
HP: 87
AC: 35
Skill Points: 36
Ki Pool: 11
Fervor: 13
Charming Presence (Sanctuary) DC: 23 Will
Attack: 9/4 + 5dpower + 1wfocus + 3gmw + 1ioun + 6str = 25 -2flurry = 23
Full-Attack with Ki Strike & Divine Power: 23/23/23/23/18/18/13
Dmg: 1d6 + 6str + 5dpower + 3gmw = 1d6 + 14dmg (Keen Rapier: 15-20/x2 crit)
Saves: 11Fort/9Reflex/18Will (with a +3 Cloak of Resistance)
Spells:
1st: 5+2
2nd: 5+2
3rd: 4+2
4th: 3+1
AC: 10base + 1dodge + 3sfist + 3bracer + 7wis + 2dex + 4sofaith + 1ioun +1mrobes +3mvest = 35
I'm trying for a Dr Strange / Avatar / mystic monk vibe. Sacred Fist has a Sanctuary & Teleport (Not sure if Dimensional Hop blessing counts for Dimensional Agility feat). The Oracle build uses high AC and delivering offensive spells through punches.
Any major flaws stick out with either of these and does one seem particularly stronger than the other?
With the 1st build, how are you getting a Revelation at 1st level when your 1st level is Monk? Also, if you are going to dip Monk, wouldn't you want to use Unchained Monk (compatible with Scaled Fist) so that you don't hurt your Base Attack Bonus?
The thing that occurs to me about Ancient Lorekeeper is that since you treat all the Sorcerer/Wizard spells (that replace your Mystery spells) as 1 level higher than their actual level, you are getting basically a free 1 level Heighten Spell on them whether you want it or not, except that it doesn't increase the casting time. So ideally you want to pick spells (whether casting them through Ascetic Spellstrike or otherwise) that benefit from Heighten Spell -- usually this means by increasing the Save DC, which doesn't apply to spells like Frigid Touch, Frostbite, Shocking Grasp, and Vampiric Touch that don't have a Save (although if you put the right other Metamagic on them(*), such as Dazing Spell, they can gain a Save). (A few spells like Light and Darkness can get the upper hand over each other from Heighten Spell, but you already have these on your spell list anyway; and Heighten Spell can put a spell over the top for getting through a Globe of Invulnerability or similar effect.)
(*)If you are going to do that with spells cast through any kind of Spellstrike, you must have either Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane, option 3) or Spomtaneous Metafocus or Quicken Spell to get past the problem of Metamagic increasing the casting time. For some spells cast normally from a distance (for instance, Black Tentacles and Fireball), this is not an absolute requirement, although still important if you plan to use them a lot.
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With the 1st build, how are you getting a Revelation at 1st level when your 1st level is Monk? Also, if you are going to dip Monk, wouldn't you want to use Unchained Monk (compatible with Scaled Fist) so that you don't hurt your Base Attack Bonus?
Ah, yeah I totally missed that Scaled Fist archetype could be taken with the new Unchained Monk. That's definitely an improvement in BAB & Flurry of Blows, although a -2 hit to will save...but still worth it.
I forgot to move the revelations up 1 level for each since Scaled Fist is taken first.
Also, I guess applying metamagic feats to these spells goes out the window then also. Unless I get rid of some feats. I could swap Crane Style for Dragon Style and replace Osyluth Guile with Spontaneous Metafocus and figure a way to squeeze in Intensified Metamagic for Shocking Grasp or etc.
EDIT: Updated original post - Moved Revelations up 1 level each due to Scaled Fist being taken at 1st level & updated BAB to reflect Unchained Monk BAB.
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Not a fan of dumping strength on a dex build. That first character is basically useless at level 1. If I played that one, I would play something else until level 2; because then at least you can cast spells. I think you are much better off doing a STR build.
In PFS you can play whatever at 1st level and rebuild for free right before you play your 1st game as 2nd level. So it's not really an issue.
Also, the Sacred Fist does not gain proficiency with his deity's favored weapon at 1st level.
If you are a human fighting with a rapier, a single level dip into fighter or swashbuckler can give you Fencing Grace at 1st level -- and there is one swashbuckler archetype that lets you do this with a non-human.
Dex to damage for an unarmed strike is much tougher.
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That is true, but unless you are getting dex to damage, I would never go that low on str for any melee build. I know you are going for touch AC with spells, but still that seems a bit crazy.
An Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or an Agile Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes isn't too expensive and fixes that issue. Easy to obtain by 4th level and as an Oracle you can easily play Support, either with range weapons or casting spells.
Which one seems to be the more put together build or the stronger one at later levels though? Anyone play characters similar in build to these and have any experiences or thoughts to add?
They're quite different characters. One is a full spontaneous caster who dabbles in fighting and is quite defensive, one is a 6-level prepared caster whose spells are there to support their fighting and is offence-heavy .I don't think they're directly comparable.
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If you're going to use unarmed on the oracle build, I'd go with blackened curse instead of haunted. The -4 to hit doesn't apply to unarmed strikes, and it give you more spells. And haunted can be crippling if you need to retrieve an item in a fight.
Just saw the authors comment on Blackened curse only effecting manufactured weapons so that does appear to be a better choice.
How would one improve the Scaled Fist/Ascetic Oracle build? I'm not sure if Osyluth Guile and Crane Style are the route to go since it adds a lot of AC or if the focus should be spent elsewhere.
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Ancient Lorekeeper is not a legal archetype for half-elves in PFS. Only elves. It's in the Advanced Race Guide, which in Additional Resources is very restrictive about what races can select options.
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
It's been clarified many times that that applies to half-races as well. So a Half-elf can't take elf options or human options from the ARG. A Half-elf can't learn blend, either, for example, and an Elf can't learn paragon surge. In PFS.
Otherwise it looks interesting. I don't have access to the details of the Ascetic mystery. I posted some suggestions on spells to get with Ancient Lorekeeper HERE and don't want to retype them right now. The short version, just say no to scorching ray. Don't use your limited Ancient Lorekeeper spells on something so situational when there are similar options already on the cleric list. Your main thing is melee combat. Take mirror image. It will help you in many more fights and for many more rounds per fight than a blasting spell.
It's pretty amazing that they worded blackened like that. Its clearly not intended to leave unarmed strikes exempt. But there it is.
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Looking over the rest of the first build, stats will be an issue with a switch the Elf. Also, dumping STR to 7 will greatly hamper you as was mentioned for almost half of your PFS career. My suggestion is something like:
STR 10 DEX 15+2 CON 15-2 INT 8+2 WIS 8 CHA 16
Boost DEX at 4th CON at 8th
Definitely go Unchained Monk for the first level dip. You don't lose BAB, and you don't take a penalty when you flurry. And you get d10 HP. The poor will save hurts, but Oracle has a good will save, so it isn't too bad.
You're taking Additional Traits to pick up magical lineage, but I don't see any Metamagic feats in your build, so I'm not sure what it does for you. If you aren't going to use shocking grasp, there's really no reason to get Intensified Spell or magical lineage. I don't know if Bifurcated magic can be taken as an elf. If not, then Magical knack would be useful to keep caster level maxed for divine favor.
What UnArcaneElection said about Spellstrike and Metamagic is not correct. He posted the same thing in the other thread. Spellstrike doesn't care if you cast the spell as a standard or full-round action, because Spellstrike is only letting you deliver the spell through your weapon (in this case your fist instead of the free touch attack). Spell combat would not work with a full-round action spell, but it doesn't look like Ascetic mystery gets spell combat. But you don't have any Metamagic anyway.
Your AC is insane, so maybe you can skip mirror image. There are still better options than scorching ray. Alter self is a good utility spell that is also a combat boost. Change into a Halflings or something small for a bonus to hit and AC from the size change and a bonus to DEX for more to-hit and damage (assuming agile amulet of mighty fists around 5th level).
For first level I would normally say shield if you aren't taking shocking grasp or a damaging spell to use with Spellstrike. But again, your AC is ridiculous already. Longarm might be my second choice. Reach on an unarmed build can be very helpful.
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On your Sacred Fist build, your stat buy looks off. Even with Dual Talent Human.
STR 16 (10pts)
DEX 14 (5 pts)
CON 12 (2 pts)
INT 12 (2pts)
WIS 15 (7 pts)
CHA 7 (-4 pts)
Total: 22 points
You can drop INT to 10 without losing too much to make it work.
EDIT: Also, if you're going for a divine monk feel, why use a rapier? As mentioned upthread, Sacred Fist doesn't get their deity's favored weapon proficiency for free, and you then have to take Crusader's Flurry. And you don't get to make use of scaling damage, because Sacred Fist trades sacred weapon away for flurry. So you're better off flurrying with your fist anyway.
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Ancient Lorekeeper is not a legal archetype for half-elves in PFS. Only elves. It's in the Advanced Race Guide, which in Additional Resources is very restrictive about what races can select options.
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).It's been clarified many times that that applies to half-races as well. So a Half-elf can't take elf options or human options from the ARG. A Half-elf can't learn blend, either, for example, and an Elf can't learn paragon surge. In PFS.
Otherwise it looks interesting. I don't have access to the details of the Ascetic mystery. I posted some suggestions on spells to get with Ancient Lorekeeper HERE and don't want to retype them right now. The short version, just say no to scorching ray. Don't use your limited Ancient Lorekeeper spells on something so situational when there are similar options already on the cleric list. Your main thing is melee combat. Take mirror image. It will help you in many more fights and for many more rounds per fight than a blasting spell.
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial favored class options?
Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ, another APG FAQ, and a Core Rulebook FAQ.
posted September 2013
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Thought of rapier since it has a high critical range, which I thought would be a decent boost to damage when flurrying 6 or so attacks and fishing for crits. It still has a wandering swordsman feel but other weapons or unarmed may be a better choice.
Unless I'm reading it wrong the FAQ allows halfelf to select elf archetypes FAQ
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The FAQ is not the issue. The Additional Resources is. By the FAQ, yes, a half-elf could select an elf archetype. By Additional Resources, an elf archetype from the Advanced Race Guide is not a legal option for a half-elf to select.
This has been asked and answered so many times on the PFS boards that I'm having trouble tracking down the original post, but here is one from John Compton confirming that the FAQ on favored-class bonuses (which are not restricted in Additional Resources for the ARG) does not override the language in the Additional Resources.
Trust me on this one, or go ask on the PFS boards. Unless they have changed their minds very recently, none of the race specific options that are restricted by the Additional Resources for the ARG are available to anyone, through any means, other than by being that specific (non-half) race (EDIT: Or, I should add, with a boon). They are not legal options, and they effectively do not exist in the game except for the race they belong to.
On a related note, this means scion of humanity allows aasimars to take human fcbs too correct?That came up in discussion, and it's one of the reasons that I worded the first entry the way that I did. At one point it read more like "Races that lack a similar racial trait do not count as a member of any other race for this purpose," but the decision was made to keep a race's options exclusive to that race except in special circumstances (e.g. one of the recent GM star reward Chronicle sheets).
Jiggy, this is also the case for the Racial Heritage feat, which does not override the Additional Resources text that shows up under the Advanced Race Guide header.
Seriously though, Racial Heritage: can it get me things from the Advanced Race Guide? Yes? No?
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Mike Brock on a similar topic, while he was still the Organized Play Coordinator.
Racial spells found in Avanced Race Guide are for the specified race only. Any future books will also have the same restriction. Books that came out before Advanced Race Guide are open for all as outlined in Additional Resources.
What trips people up is that the Additional Resources does not contain "game rules." It contains rules governing what material is legal or not legal from each book. The way Additional Resources is worded, those options are only legal for the "specified race." In this case, Elf. That a Half-elf can take legal elf options is irrelevant, because elf options from the ARG are not legal options for a half-elf.
I really would like to give you a different answer, but this topic has been covered over, and over again.
Its a case of specific trumping general, the half-elf/half-orc rule is general, While the additional resources on racial archetypes is specific. Ergo you cant take the archetypes, but you can take the other racial options, for instance, I believe you can still take elven battle focus as a half elf.
Where is the Ascetic Oracle from?
Where is the Ascetic Oracle from?
Villain Codex
Not sure why people are so thrilled with the Ascetic Mystery myself. It lacks a 20th-Level Final Revelation, and one of its Revelations is entirely useless (spoiler alert: you don't need Spellstrike to make an unarmed attack in concert with a Touch Spell).
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Yup. You can make an unarmed attack with a touch spell using the holding the charge rules, but that means you cast the spell, forgo the free action touch attack you get as part of casting a touch spell to hold the charge, and then make an unarmed strike touch spell attack on your next turn.
Spellstrike gives you action economy to allow you to make the unarmed attack when you cast the spell, allowing you to cast and attack each round.
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I'm in agreement there. The Warpriest build is more of a damage dealing build. The Oracle build looks interesting and fun, but at 12th level, it has fewer total attacks (3) than the Warpriest has attacks at its full BAB. If you like the idea of more of a martial character with a little casting, Sacred Fist is the way to go.
The Oracle build also takes much longer to come online. The Warpriest will be effective from level 1, even if flurry doesn't start working until 5th. The Oracle's melee damage output will be bad until around 4th level, and Spellstrike doesn't work until 8th. So it's much more of a caster first with a little damage.
Going with a STR build on the Oracle and Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity would help the Oracle's damage output considerably, but at the expense of AC. There's excess AC on that build, though, so losing some to put out more damage would be ok.
{. . .}
What UnArcaneElection said about Spellstrike and Metamagic is not correct. He posted the same thing in the other thread. Spellstrike doesn't care if you cast the spell as a standard or full-round action, because Spellstrike is only letting you deliver the spell through your weapon (in this case your fist instead of the free touch attack). Spell combat would not work with a full-round action spell, but it doesn't look like Ascetic mystery gets spell combat. But you don't have any Metamagic anyway.
{. . .}
Sorry, I worded it wrong, What I meant is that if you want to be able to do anything other than the spellcasting and making the attack when you are using Metamagic on a Spellstrike, like for instance move into position by more than a 5' step or make Attacks of Opportunity, then you need a way to keep from increasing the casting time on spontaneously cast spells with Metamagic; otherwise, even though Spellstrike on a full round cast is legitimate, you are going to be severely limited with it. So for practical purposes you do need to keep from increasing the casting time. (Also put this in the other thread.)
Edit: But I see that you don't have Combat Reflexes, so that throws out about half of the reason for worrying about the above . . . on the other hand, with a Dexterity of 18 in your first build, are you sure you don't want Combat Reflexes?
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That is true, but unless you are getting dex to damage, I would never go that low on str for any melee build. I know you are going for touch AC with spells, but still that seems a bit crazy.An Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or an Agile Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes isn't too expensive and fixes that issue. Easy to obtain by 4th level and as an Oracle you can easily play Support, either with range weapons or casting spells.
Which one seems to be the more put together build or the stronger one at later levels though? Anyone play characters similar in build to these and have any experiences or thoughts to add?
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Well, I played a life oracle through carrion crown. Got him to 14th level. He wasn't really a melee guy. He could do ok in a pinch with some buffs, but he was mainly support, a lot of buffs and spamming channels to keep the party up and kill undead.
Does anyone know if the ascetic mystery is PFS legal?
Additional resources for Villain Codex says yes. There is a Campaign Clarications change for the Final Revelation (apparently they forgot to provide one in the Villain Codex).