so recently i posted a tread about the need for new swashbuckler archetypes. so i decided to do a quick check on classes that had swashbuckler like features. then i found the new Virtuous Bravo paladin archetype!!! it looks like a paladin and a swashbuckler had a baby...a very very beautiful baby! here's what it trades out
heavy/medium armor for swashbuckler finesse
smite evil for smite evil(without AC bonus)
mercy for nimble (sort of makes up for no cha to AC from smite evil)
spell casting and aura of justice for just about ALL swashbuckler deeds (even parry/riposte )!!!
Holy champion for bravo holy strike (which is add debuff+1 round of stun on a crit)
so basically you have the following:
1) divine heath/grace/bond
2) channel positive energy/ lay on hands
3) smite evil/detect evil
3) all auras (except justice)
4) swashbuckler finesse and panche/deeds
5) nimble
and lose
1)mercy
2)spellcasting
3) aura of justice
4) heavy/medium armor
now i don't know if losing spellcasting hurts the paladin, but to me this combines my two favorite classes into a very flashy combo. i mean really, you basically get everything a swashuckler has except swashbuckler weapon training and those extra bonus feats. the only thing that could make this archetype better is if it could be of All good or neutral good alignment so i could be a paladin of Cayden Cailean. thoughts?
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The loss of mercies hurts worse than the lost spell casting.
If you want to make a high charisma dex based paladin this would be a great way to do it.
I believe if you worship Shelyn you can get an ability to use a glaive as though it were a one-handed weapon that is finesse-able, which would be really cool.
Swift action self LOH is competing with all the swash swift actions, too many options.
The archetype is good, but not great. As Claxon said losing mercies really hurts.
yeah as a paladin losing mercy and spellcasting hurts, but i kind of view it as a swashbuckler that gets more toys to work with, rather then a paladin that loses stuff.
Java Man: yeah that was a concern, but having extra options when i need them appeals to me.
What book is this in? This feels like, while a downgrade to the paladin, a strict upgrade to the swashbuckler. I mean, divine grace is so much better than charmed life and saving throws is where every swashbuckler I've ever made got into trouble.
What book is this in? This feels like, while a downgrade to the paladin, a strict upgrade to the swashbuckler. I mean, divine grace is so much better than charmed life and saving throws is where ever swashbuckler I've ever made got into trouble.
I will never figure out why an ostensible Gunslinger/Fighter hybrid doesn't have a good Fortitude save while both parent classes do.
What book is this in? This feels like, while a downgrade to the paladin, a strict upgrade to the swashbuckler. I mean, divine grace is so much better than charmed life and saving throws is where every swashbuckler I've ever made got into trouble.
its from the new book, Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the High Court
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Could be awesome with a Scaled Fist dip (though that applies to most Paladins):
Feats:
Virtuous Bravo: Weapon Finesse
Human: W. Focus (Glaive)
L1: Bladed Brush
Unchained Monk: Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike
L3: Slashing Grace (Glaive)
L5: Crusader's Flurry
Takes a while to fully get going, but you get to be quite the aesthetic ascetic. At higher levels it might be worth taking the Mantis Style feats and getting a Ki Focus enhancement on your Glaive.
Like the swash, it probably will get used as a dip more often than it is the main class. The difference is that paladins are a 2-level dip rather than 1-level.
With smite and precise strike I add double my damage to attacks, don't I? Quadruple when spending panache against dragons etc.?! 5times with VMC cavalier.
i'm going to be honest, the reason i'm freaking out about this archetype is because i'm currently playing a CG inspired blade swashbuckler who is very religious (Caydan Cailean follower) and loves to punish evil while looking cool while wielding a rapier in one hand and a small flask of ale in the other,the DM even gave me a +1 rapier blessed by Caydan himself for doing a good deed 0_o. plus by chance, part of my character's back story is that he wish's to have a pet since he didn't have one as a child, namely a pure white Chocobo...i mean Axe beak!!..which a paladin might be able to summon, so overall this archetype seems to fit my character a bit more then inspired blade. i mean a divine swashbuckler, that's very cool
note: i know this is a paladin archetype, but my silly head can't help but to view it as a better swashbuckler...i suppose i'm a little hyped!
There is the slight problem that a paladin wouldn't worship Cayden Cailean. In fact, mechanically they cannot.
There is the slight problem that a paladin wouldn't worship Cayden Cailean. In fact, mechanically they cannot.
whoops, yeah i forgot about that, but my DM is a pretty cool guy, he said he might allow certain things if we can make a case for it. things such as allowing androids to barbarian rage. so maybe i could ask him to allow me to be NG/CG and be the first paladin of Caydan in the campaign world.
With smite and precise strike I add double my damage to attacks, don't I? Quadruple when spending panache against dragons etc.?! 5times with VMC cavalier.The only problem is one of spending panache, smiting, and challenging in the same turn. Though if you're determined, you could just smite, challenge, and finally attack/spend panache on 3 separate turns.
this is actually pretty sweet! i don't know if i would spend panache to double precise strike, but since i'm in a undead/tainted/fiend heavy campaign i should have 3X my lv damage for most fights (until i run out though).
Edit: never mind
There is the slight problem that a paladin wouldn't worship Cayden Cailean. In fact, mechanically they cannot.
"You've got to be within one step of your deity for alignment" (for non-clerics/warpriests) is a (very common) house rule not an actual game rule. There's a lot of table variation on this.
Or Lore/Nature Oracle and you can still wear armor.
Lore Oracle gets to use CHA instead of DEX for AC, Scaled Fist gets to use CHA and DEX for AC. The latter is pretty much better since you have weapon finesse baked in to the class.
CRB from Paladin:
"While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
So, does this deity "consistently offend her moral code"? And I find it funny that a Paladin cannot hire a LN or NG janitor, but could follow the commands and teachings of a CG deity.
Edit: removed response to an earlier comment I misread.
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While not explicitly listed as a requirement, like many rules of the game they are apparent if you look at the spirit of the rules rather than trying to adhere only to what is written.
As Java man points out, it would be silly for a paladin to only have cohorts, followers, and henchman who are LG but be allowed to have who was CG.
While not explicitly listed as a requirement, like many rules of the game they are apparent if you look at the spirit of the rules rather than trying to adhere only to what is written.
I feel like though exceptions are absolutely within the spirit of the rules when a character is choosing a deity because their portfolio is what the character cares about, and "caring about that stuff" is wholly legitimate within their alignment.
Like a Paladin from the Mwangi Expanse who loves sailing and natural places doesn't really have a lot of better choices that fit better than Gozreh. There are after all no formal rules for "worshiping a deity" in the game.
You can view a deity as either "a representative of the elemental forces that are alignment" or "the deity in charge of what's in their portfolio" and I think the latter is vastly more interesting. You shouldn't be required to be a certain alignment to care about a specific thing not intrinsic to any alignment.
You just get the consolation of... uh... Smite Evil. Which really makes it no contest.
You still want to crit as much as possible because it's your primary panache recovery mechanic (unless this changed for the archetype), so you'll still want to pick up improved critical later.
Could be awesome with a Scaled Fist dip (though that applies to most Paladins):
Feats:
Virtuous Bravo: Weapon Finesse
Human: W. Focus (Glaive)
L1: Bladed Brush
Unchained Monk: Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike
L3: Slashing Grace (Glaive)
L5: Crusader's FlurryTakes a while to fully get going, but you get to be quite the aesthetic ascetic. At higher levels it might be worth taking the Mantis Style feats and getting a Ki Focus enhancement on your Glaive.
I should point out, Paladins of Sarenrae might be able to make even better use of this:
- Saves two feats (you only need Dervish Dance, not Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace + Bladed Brush)
- Lets you use a high crit range weapon (18-20 x2 is more overall damage than 20 x3 even before you consider the tripled Panache generation)
But:
- No reach
- Significantly less damage per hit (smaller damage die and no 1.5x bonus from two-handing)
Instead of using Reach + Combat Reflexes you might use your Monk bonus feat on Dodge and take Crane Style with one of the feats you save, and it frees up that Human bonus feat for a different race, such as Halfling or Half-Elf. A mid-high level Halfling with this general setup and Crane Style, Osyluth Guile, and Cautious Fighter feats with Fate's Favored and Cautious Warrior traits would have incredible defenses, while still having a decent offense in melee.
Paladins of Irori could also take Hamatulatsu (refluff as necessary) to deal piercing damage with Unarmed Strikes, foregoing the need for Crusader's Flurry, and use your Swashbuckler stuff with that.
While not explicitly listed as a requirement, like many rules of the game they are apparent if you look at the spirit of the rules rather than trying to adhere only to what is written.I feel like though exceptions are absolutely within the spirit of the rules when a character is choosing a deity because their portfolio is what the character cares about, and "caring about that stuff" is wholly legitimate within their alignment.
Like a Paladin from the Mwangi Expanse who loves sailing and natural places doesn't really have a lot of better choices that fit better than Gozreh. There are after all no formal rules for "worshiping a deity" in the game.
You can view a deity as either "a representative of the elemental forces that are alignment" or "the deity in charge of what's in their portfolio" and I think the latter is vastly more interesting. You shouldn't be required to be a certain alignment to care about a specific thing not intrinsic to any alignment.
We have very different opinions on what constitutes a paladin.
For my opinion, a paladin can enjoy the hobbies of sailing and enjoy the natural beauty of the world. But he is never a worshiper of it. His thing is good and law above all else. To me, your character that your describing is a Warpriest, cleric, or Inquisitor. Heck, I think they even make a Warpriest archtype that gets a smite mechanic.
I realize we cannot resolve our dispute in this matter,and so I suggest we don't pursue this further.
so recently i posted a tread about the need for new swashbuckler archetypes. so i decided to do a quick check on classes that had swashbuckler like features. then i found the new Virtuous Bravo paladin archetype!!!
Awesome! I have pulled up and bookmarked the SRD page for future use.
I love mixing Swashbuclker with other classes. My wife is currently playing a Swashbuckler/Magus multiclass that is a lot of fun.
i see this is starting to turn into a "how should a paladin worship/act" discussion. I'm just going to ask the Dm if he would change it to "all Good" probably going to shoot for NG because my character can play by the rules, but if he needs to break a law or two for the greater good, he can. but yeah a "ask your DM question"
i hear a lot of votes for bladed brush, but i can't choose between it or fencing grace.