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I'm really struggling with the mesmerist class. It feels very overpowered. I'm running the Iron Gods adventure path and one of my players has brought in this character:
Carmina
Female gnome mesmerist 11 (Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 38)
CN Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 17, flat-footed 12 (+1 armor, +6 Dex, +1 size)
hp 100 (11d8+33) (currently 94)
Fort +9, Ref +16, Will +20 (+2 to saves vs. emotion and fear); +2 vs. illusions, +2 bonus vs. fear and despair
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 agile whip +17/+12 (1d2+7 nonlethal)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with +1 agile whip)
Special Attacks bold stares (nightmare, psychic inception[OA], sapped magic[OA]), hypnotic stare (-3), manifold tricks (3 tricks), mental potency (+2), mesmerist tricks 16/day (false flanker, fearsome guise, gift of will, mask misery, mesmeric mirror, reflect fear), painful stare (+7 or +4d6+7)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +19)
. . 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound (DC 19), prestidigitation, speak with animals
Mesmerist Spells Known (CL 11th; concentration +19)
. . 4th (4/day)—enervation, phantasmal killer (DC 23), synapse overload[OA] (DC 22)
. . 3rd (6/day)—bestow curse (DC 21), charm monster (DC 21), ray of exhaustion (DC 21), vision of hell[UM] (DC 22)
. . 2nd (6/day)—castigate[APG] (DC 20), glitterdust (DC 20), knock, mirror image, silence (DC 21)
. . 1st (7/day)—charm person (DC 19), command (DC 19), healing thief[UC], mental block[OA] (DC 19), paranoia[OA] (DC 20), ray of enfeeblement (DC 19)
. . 0 (at will)—daze (DC 18), detect magic, flare (DC 18), ghost sound (DC 19), mage hand, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 5, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 26
Base Atk +8; CMB +4; CMD 20
Feats Enforcer[APG], Intense Pain[OA], Skill Focus (Intimidate), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery[UC]
Traits bloody-minded, memorable, skymetal smith
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+2 to jump), Bluff +27, Craft (tattoo) +7, Diplomacy +24, Escape Artist +19, Intimidate +29, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (religion) +6, Linguistics +13, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +20, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +18, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Craft (tattoo)
Languages Abyssal, Androffan, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ attached, consummate liar +5, eternal hope[APG], glib lie (DC 26), gnome magic, touch treatment 11/day (Greater)
Combat Gear mesmerizing tattoo, wand of blur (50 charges); Other Gear haramaki[UC], +1 agile whip, belt of incredible dexterity +4, cloak of resistance +3, headband of alluring charisma +4, masterwork tattooing tools, 2,166 gp
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Special Abilities
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Attached (Skymetal Bauble) If your attachment is threatened, -1 Will & -2 save vs. fear
Consummate Liar +5 Counts as Combat Expertise for some feats.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Eternal Hope (1/day) +2 save vs. fear and despair. 1/day, reroll a 1 rolled on 1d20.
Glib Lie (DC 26) (Su) You are protected from truth-telling magic; CL check to compel truth or detect your lies.
Gnome Magic Add 1 to the DCs of any saving throws to resist illusion spells cast.
Hypnotic Stare (-3, 30 feet) (Su) As swift action, target creature takes penalty on Will saves.
Manifold Tricks (Su) You can have mulitple tricks implanted at once.
Mental Potency (+2) (Ex) Increase HD limit and total HD of enchantment or illusion spells by 1.
Mesmerist Tricks (3 tricks, 210 feet, 16/day) (Su) Implant hypnotic bond with allies. granting edge vs. foes.
Nightmare (Su) Target rolls twice on Will saves vs. fear, taking lower result.
Painful Stare (+7 or +4d6+7, 1/round) (Su) As a free action, hyp. stare target takes extra precision dam from a hit.
Psychic Inception (Su) Hypnotic stare can affect creatures that are mindless or immune to mind-affecting effects.
Sapped Magic (Su) Hypnotic starer penalty applies to DCs of spells and spell-like abilities, and SR.
Touch Treatment (Greater, 11/day) (Su) Remove certain conditions from creature touched.
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
I'm having a hard time with the simplicity of reducing the Will saves of the opponent. I'm also really not pleased with the way spellcasting works. There isn't anything that can tell if the mesmerist is casting a spell? So it's impossible to counterspell?
Psychic spells can be observed and identified. Even spell-like abilities — which have no components — can be identified. So it is possible to notice and counterspell and what have you.
All right, here goes.
- Reducing enemy will saves isn't as much of a problem as you might think. At 11th level, the Mesmerist has 4th level spells, while an Enchanter Wizard has 6th level spells (with the same number of castings per day on nastier spells, too). Mesmerist can reduce saves by 3, but that's only one harder to resist than the Wizard's spells. That's just a difference of one feat (or two if they wanted to cover both illusions and enchantments). A Sorcerer would only have 5th level spells, but their bloodline could make up the DC difference. The real problem would be if you had the Mesmerist helping a save-or-suck full caster.
Basically, Hypnotic Stare closes the gap between the Mesmerist's super-specialized 6/9 casting and a much more versatile full caster, since it would be a bad if Wizard, Sorcerer, Psychic, and Arcanist were all automatically better Mesmerists than the Mesmerist.
- There is no difficulty in telling that the Mesmerist is casting a spell, nor in counterspelling. An FAQ covered this exact problem. The player could take two feats to have a chance at hiding their casting (there are a few combinations, but always two), take a prestige class, or use the one Mesmerist archetype that can make people remember somebody else casting the spell, but that's not the case.
- Iron Gods has a lot of mind-affecting immune creatures. The Mesmerist will only be able to cast on them at 50% effectiveness (and they get a small save bonus).
- Your player hasn't taken a lot of compulsions that lock the target down or remove them from combat (like Suggestion), so failed will saves aren't doing as much. Even their nastiest spell (Phantasmal Killer) offers a fortitude save as well.
- That is a terrible strength score. Remember, even psychic casters have to make concentration checks while grappled! And they need to spend their move action if it has a thought component, otherwise the DC is ten higher.
The very first combat we had was a cake walk for him. Applying a total of -5 to all mind-affecting spells for anyone casting the spell makes for an incredibly simple encounter. He managed to put the leader of the enemy group into the fetal position for the majority of the fight with ease. At no point did he feel threatened as he walked through a bunch of ogre spiders.
- Castigate has a bucket of descriptors on it. Immunity to anything other than mind-affecting will stop it, and even mind-affecting is a 50/50 that requires keeping Hypnotic Stare focused on that target.
- The Mesmerist's AC is pretty low (courtesy of dumped strength limiting armor), so multiple enemies can still attack her just fine. Hopefully obvious casting will help inform enemies better of actual threat levels. (Also, counterspelling/dispelling works wonders when it's viable.)
- Don't base things on just one combat, especially one where you were misinformed about how the character's casting worked.
What's the rest of the party look like? Are there more than four PCs?
He just walked through the ogre spiders and went right for the lady in charge. He demoralized her (-2 to saves) and used the stare (another -3). He didn't care at all about the spiders until the ash giant was crying in the fetal position.
There was 1 ash giant and 7 ogre spiders.
There is a sorcerer (air/lightning based), barbarian, and oracle of life. There are actually others, but they weren't there for the fight.
I'll keep working with the player. As of right now, I am really not happy with this class at all.
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This is something I find with a lot of GMs. So do not freak out but this sounds like its on you mate. It is in your head, the character nor their class is OP. The player (correctly) targeting the weak save on the most dangerous opponent with a save or suck spell.
No duh they are going to be effective in this scenario, this is literally the single situation in which they shine. Single target, low will save, speaks common. This is what the mesmerist is BUILT to smash. This is where he shines, let him have the moment.
Now, if you insist about complaining. Then let me point out that literally any caster built to target will saves would roll the Ash Giant. It is a CR 11 monster with a +5 to will saves, it fails the roll verses Command half the time from a level 1 spellcaster with 18 in their casting stat.
Basically, you are mad at your player for being in the right place at the right time. This is silly. Instead, understand that this is a niche situation in which the player's build shines and move on with the campaign. There will be moments for your other players to shine, especially in Iron Gods.
Yeah, Mesmerist is very effective at doing the one thing it can particularly effectively do, in a showy and obvious way. In kind of an annoying way - failing save-or-sucks isn't that fun for anyone, even the GM, and that's why I'd never play one in PvP. But, it's more dramatic in success at the right time than overpowered, imo. Are the other players feeling shown up or not getting to do things because of it, or otherwise unhappy?
After taking some time to think this over, I am convinced that there are two problems going on:
1. I barely have the time to keep up with the adventure. Learning another new class is not something I'm prepared to do.
2. I'm struggling with something else, not gaming related. It's probably just a personal thing interfering with my ability to deal with something new.
#2 is the most likely culprit.
If you as a the GM are not ready to learn with a new class..than you every right to ask the player to change his character.
The class itself is not actually too bad if you know how it works...but I can understand how things can get out of hand when the GM is not up on a class.
So talk to your player and just tell him you are not yet ready to allow Occult Adventures Classes till you have enough time to learn it.
I'm giving it a try. We already found a few things that he didn't expect. I'm going to give it a chance. Something that he didn't account for was that the constructs are immune to necromancy effects.
I'm giving it a try. We already found a few things that he didn't expect. I'm going to give it a chance. Something that he didn't account for was that the constructs are immune to necromancy effects.
That is good that you are willing to give it a try. I as a player would prefer that kind of answer from my GM. But also as a player I would be understanding if the GM came to me and asked me to change characters.
Just keep talking to the player about this. So just keep communicating with the player about this.
One thing that I don't like to do is to change the world to deal with one character. I'm going to have to figure out how the class works and read through the abilities of the monsters in more detail. I haven't had to deal with some of their abilities because it never came up.