Can't use items to create spell completion magic items.
definitely no, how do you make a scroll from the staff?
A staff just has a command word or other method to release the spell, it does not contain the knowledge of the spell, so no casting the spell into a book or onto a scroll... at best you achieve nothing, at worst that fireball would destroy the book/scroll.
Staff of the Master is a great concept, just handle with care.
Well, yeah, academies and the like gift such staves to Masters... now, that implies
a) a large enough organisation to have dedicated staff makers
b) a definition for what a Master is, and I don't think that means a lvl 1 graduate.
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How about using a Ring of Spell Knowledge as an intermediary step?
It would require hiring a spontaneous arcane caster who had scribe scroll and a decent spellcraft bonus, but I think it would totally work.
For an Arcanist, though, would easily work. Wouldn't even need to scribe the scroll. Just cast the spell from the rod, make the spellcraft check to put it in the ring, then write it in your book.
Can't use items to create spell completion magic items.
Did I miss something here?
https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/magicItemCreati on.html
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems.html
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
The rules seem to let you use staves, which are a spell trigger item, to provide the prerequisite for item crafting.
the rules let you cast the spell from a staff when it's required in the making of other items, yes, but the scroll, as a spell completion item, need you to scribe the procedure for casting the spell, which can't be provided from a spell trigger item.
Care to quote a rule for that? Both magic item creation rules I posted disagree with you.
Spell completion magic items (pretty much only scrolls) cannot be created without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Spell prerequisites can be provided by a spell completion magic item.
Q.E.D.
JDLPF is right. Fluff it as capturing and converting to writing the energy patterns coming out of the (slow, 8 hour long) release of a charge from the staff during crafting.
Can you add a spell from a Staff to your Spellbook?
Either directly or by using the Staff to make a Scoll and then copy from the Scroll?Thanks
No such mechanic exists.
...And, as quoted above, certain magic items do qualify as providing said prerequisites. o wo/ JDLPF's got it right, methinks.
No, magic items don't qualify.
The actual requirements are pretty clearly spelled out, and you can't bypass them.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
???
Is it not cheaper to pay the "rental" cost to copy the spell from another's book?
Well, the rules for stuff like potions say you must meet the spell prerequisites, yes? And the general section defines what spell prerequisites are? Still not seeing the conflict here.
In the following quote from the CRB description of Scribe Scrol note the use of the word "know" in the first sentence. Do you "know" the spell if you are using a staff to supply it?
"Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information."
And so begin the semantic wars
No, magic items don't qualify.
The actual requirements are pretty clearly spelled out, and you can't bypass them.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.???You are quoting the general rule for magic items as a whole. There are specific rules that apply scrolls/wands/potions/et al, that supersede the general rules (the infamous, specific trumps general scenario).
You can use a spell trigger item to create a pair of boots of speed.
You can not use a spell trigger item to create a potion/wand/scroll of haste.
In the following quote from the CRB description of Scribe Scrol note the use of the word "know" in the first sentence. Do you "know" the spell if you are using a staff to supply it?
"Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information."
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The wording for spell trigger items specifically says you know the spell to activate it. You're still not showing a conflict between the rules that allow you to use a spell trigger item to create a scroll.
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Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Creating Scrolls
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
What is the prerequisite for making a scroll?
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.A staff fulfill that prerequisite?
No. You don't have prepared the spell and you don't know it.
That requirement can be bypassed?
"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
No, you can't bypass the prerequisite when making potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion (i.e. scrolls) magic items".
So you can't make scrolls if you don't have memorized the spell or you don't know it if you are a spontaneous spellcaster.
@JDLPF
You are totally misreading what you cited. You can use a staff if your class give you access to it, that is the "just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know", but the staff don't give the spell to you, and it don't give any spell knowledge to you.
What is the prerequisite for making a scroll?
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
Do you know that the paragraph you quoted about scrolls appears in all magic item types, including wondrous items? I'll quote it again just to make clear which one I am talking about:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Every item type contains that same paragraph, or something along the same lines.
A staff fulfill that prerequisite?
No. You don't have prepared the spell and you don't know it.
The rules specifically say that the spell prerequisite can be met with a magic item. Yet every single item type says the creator must have the spell prepared or as a spell known to meet the prerequisite. Which if true, means no spell prerequisite could ever be met with a magic item (something the rules specifically say is allowed) - obviously that is wrong, as items are usable to meet the prerequisites.
That requirement can be bypassed?
"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
No, you can't make potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion (i.e. scrolls) magic items".
So you can't make scrolls if you don't have memorized the spell or you don't know it if you are a spontaneous spellcaster.
All that means is that you can't bypass the requirement by adding +5 to the DC. It doesn't change anything about how those prerequisites are met. Meeting them with an item is perfectly fine.
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What is the prerequisite for making a scroll?
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.Do you know that the paragraph you quoted about scrolls appears in all magic item types, including wondrous items? I'll quote it again just to make clear which one I am talking about:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)Every item type contains that same paragraph, or something along the same lines.
A staff fulfill that prerequisite?
No. You don't have prepared the spell and you don't know it.The rules specifically say that the spell prerequisite can be met with a magic item. Yet every single item type says the creator must have the spell prepared or as a spell known to meet the prerequisite. Which if true, means no spell prerequisite could ever be met with a magic item (something the rules specifically say is allowed) - obviously that is wrong, as items are usable to meet the prerequisites.
All that means is that you can't bypass the requirement by adding +5 to the DC. It doesn't change anything about how those prerequisites are met. Meeting them with an item is perfectly fine.That requirement can be bypassed?
"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
No, you can't make potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion (i.e. scrolls) magic items".
So you can't make scrolls if you don't have memorized the spell or you don't know it if you are a spontaneous spellcaster.
I see you have removed part of my text, it was because of the space limits on citations?
Why you have done that is relevant, because the piece that you removed is exactly the basis of my position:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
and
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
The spell prerequisite isn't simply "get the spell someway", it is "have the spell memorized or know".
The other items say that that prerequisite can be bypassed, increasing the DC by 5 or getting the needed spell from a item. But for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion items you can't bypass that prerequisite.You need a caster with the spell, not an item.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
I'm not quoting the rest, but Scrolls, Staves, Wand, and Wondrous Items all say the same thing. Every single entry (besides Rings, for some reason) says the same thing. "The creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or know the spells)". Yet we know that isn't totally true.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The rules clearly allow access through a magic item. That is not bypassing the prerequisite, that is meeting it.
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
How do you meet the prerequisite? By preparing the spell or having the spell known is obvious. But the rules also allows the spell to come from a magic item, and as per the FAQ, a spell-like ability.
And from earlier in the chapter (under Magic Item Descriptions):
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
The rules flat-out state a magic item can be used to meet the spell prerequisite.
Keep in mind that virtually all of the posts following mine have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question.
The OP wants to know about learning a spell from a staff, not creating a staff/wand/scroll or anything else.
AFAICD, there is no such mechanic for doing so.
Keep in mind that virtually all of the posts following mine have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question.
The OP wants to know about learning a spell from a staff, not creating a staff/wand/scroll or anything else.
AFAICD, there is no such mechanic for doing so.
The OP has more than one question in it.
Can you add a spell from a Staff to your Spellbook?
Either directly or by using the Staff to make a Scoll and then copy from the Scroll?Thanks
The first question ("Can you add a spell from a Staff to your Spellbook? Either directly...) is easily answered - no, you can't add a spell from a staff to your spellbook directly.
The second question ("Can you add a spell from a Staff to your Spellbook? ...by using the Staff to make a Scoll and then copy from the Scroll?") is what prompted the rest of the thread. So the rest of the thread does have to do with the OPs question and is not off topic. As has been shown, yes you can use a staff to make a scroll and learn the spell that way.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The above is the paragraph we are all having trouble with
If we turn it into point form, it might help.A) All items have Prerequisites
1)Prerequisites must be met
1.a)Spells must be known
1.b)spells from items or other caster is allowed
2)+5 DC to Prerequisites not met
2.a)Item Feat Must be known
2.b)potions, spell-trigger,or spell-completion items must also meet spell Prerequisites
So, to make Boots of Speed
Prerequisites are Craft Wondrous Item and the spell haste.
A 1a or b) cast or have some thing or someone else cast hast
A 2) +5 to DC if no access to hast spell
A 2.a) must have Craft Wonderous Item Feat
A 2.b) dose not apply
DC is 15 or 20 if no access to Haste spell
So, to make a Scroll of Haste
Prerequisites are Craft Scroll and the spell haste
A 1a or b) cast or have some thing or someone else cast hast
A 2) +5 to DC if no access to hast spell
A 2.a) must have Craft Scroll Feat
A 2.b) Scroll is a spell-completion, you must cast the hast spell A2 is cancelled
DC is 10
To answer the OP's question... With a Staff that has Haste, can you make a Scroll of Haste, then learn the spell Haste? As far as I can tell, yes.
Spending 187.5gp and 8h to make a Scroll instead of paying 45gp and 1h to copy it from another's Spellbook is up to you.
+90gp and 3h to put it in your Spellbook...