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Edit: traits are not free of roleplay baggage at our table, is basically what im saying, and using cunning and logic to get people to agree to what you want doesn't make one likeable.I'm not saying that there's no roleplaying attached to the trait at all. Only that it can be used to portray both a character who uses cold logic to convince people as well as a character who is friendly and both is incapable of lying and, when trying to scare people, gets replies of "that's cute."Except the second option ignores the flavor of the trait. It doesn't say anything about friendly. It talks about cunning and logic. Diplomacy isn't just whether you're friendly, or even likeable, its about getting cooperation without burning a bridge.
Look this could go on forever but here we go
Likeability and personal magnetism is linked to the charisma score.
Nothing about diplomacy says people have to like you cause you made the check, its about getting cooperation.
The flavor of the trait in question doesn't lend itself to a likeable character, just a manipulative one. The attitude changes only last 1d4 hours
Taking a trait or feat that lets you move a skill mod to a different stat doesn't change the fact that stat is low and the 6 stats represent more than just a number that goes next to a skill save or attack bonus.
As for the cha 6 dwarf whose the stubborn no nonsense negotiator? "And...you don't have to bring your dwarf friend." Lord Patronpants mused idly. "I know he means well its just, discussions with him get so...intense and the people at this dinner have a more....refined taste in evening conversation." He stares at his wine as he swirls it. Subtlety, grace, and a willingness to compromise will go farther with the people here than bullheadedness. He may hurt your chances"
As for the inquisitor, again, being a powerful persuader doesn't mean you're liked. People have to give you the time of day before you have enough time to be...
That's just one way of portraying it, though. I'm saying that using the trait to portray a likeable yet gullible character is not badwrongfun.
You're saying that a trait that sets a person as someone who uses cunning and logic to make people do what they want via diplomacy could be classified as friendly and gullible.
I profoundly disagree that those two character traits are compatible.
You're saying that a trait that sets a person as someone who uses cunning and logic to make people do what they want via diplomacy could be classified as friendly and gullible.
I profoundly disagree that those two character traits are compatible.
I'm saying that if that's how the player wants to portray the character using that trait, then I'd let them. That's all.
I sniffs badwrongfun...better get out of here...
Most kineticists stay away from melee. Their blade is their backup for a lot of the one's I've seen.
That's fair, but this applies to op attacks just as much as it applies to a normal attack. Looks like its just as effective for a ranged character trying to stay ranged as a melee character trying to engage.
Ranged > AoO > shift > ranged > AoO ... still plenty of reason to take it
I sniffs badwrongfun...better get out of here...
Yeah its almost like offhandedly commenting on how dumping stats that low in order to optimize combat effectiveness has consequences at my gms table offends people who use out of context traits to try to patch self inflicted weaknesses.
As much as people dont like it, its entirely believable that someone is unlikable and unable to convince others through speech or debate but that they are also intelligent enough to know this and rely on charismatic friends to get points across for them. The low CHA guy standing back and letting the face do the talking is no different than the barbarian listening to what the wizard knows about the ancient artifact.
Perspective: In legacy of fire there is a character described as mangy, and anyone who gets close to them notices an odor that betrays a loose relationship with hygiene who ravenously and sloppily stuffs food in his face when he eats. He's the first person suspected of any wrongdoing by other npcs in the party and generally only tolerated due to his particular expertise. Cha 8, 3points higher than whats being discussed.
Perspective: In legacy of fire there is a character described as mangy, and anyone who gets close to them notices an odor that betrays a loose relationship with hygiene who ravenously and sloppily stuffs food in his face when he eats. He's the first person suspected of any wrongdoing by other npcs in the party and generally only tolerated due to his particular expertise. Cha 8, 3points higher than whats being discussed.
As much as people dont like it, its entirely believable that someone is unlikable and unable to convince others through speech or debate but that they are also intelligent enough to know this and rely on charismatic friends to get points across for them. The low CHA guy standing back and letting the face do the talking is no different than the barbarian listening to what the wizard knows about the ancient artifact.
Just because an adventure writer makes the same mistake as several players/GMs, doesn't mean it isn't a mistake.
Just because an adventure writer makes the same mistake as several players/GMs, doesn't mean it isn't a mistake.Perspective: In legacy of fire there is a character described as mangy, and anyone who gets close to them notices an odor that betrays a loose relationship with hygiene who ravenously and sloppily stuffs food in his face when he eats. He's the first person suspected of any wrongdoing by other npcs in the party and generally only tolerated due to his particular expertise. Cha 8, 3points higher than whats being discussed.
As much as people dont like it, its entirely believable that someone is unlikable and unable to convince others through speech or debate but that they are also intelligent enough to know this and rely on charismatic friends to get points across for them. The low CHA guy standing back and letting the face do the talking is no different than the barbarian listening to what the wizard knows about the ancient artifact.
Just because players on this board think its a mistake doesn't mean it is. The foundation of this argument is based on a twisting of a trait against the meaning of its descriptive text, a massive overreach of the diplomacy skill, and conveniently ignoring what the core book says charisma represents.
My post was more in regard to how someone said their GM punishes stat dumping charisma in ways that i found to be more about punishing a player for the stat rather than reflecting what the stat value would mean or how circumstances would change people's reactions. CHA 5 does not mean you have to lack manners, smell bad, be ugly as sin and are shunned on sight by all the goodly folk.
Based on what written interpretation of the charisma stat? The one where its your personality, personal magnetism and general appearance like in the rulebook?
"res a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."
being unkempt is not the only way to represent low CHA. CHA is personal strength, leadership. There are Hags with quite high charisma, I doubt the people in the world see them as great beautiful people they'd love to chat with.
The hot jerk lacky of the main hot jerk girl group is not a leader, bad personality, but super hot. This could well be represented with a CHA of 8 or 10, the negatives outway the positives that her hotness brings.
So a CHA of 5 could be super ugly and a little socially strange, but it shouldn't be a crippling hatred of the person on sight.
EDIT:
Or lets give a -1 for slightly ugly, -1 for some BO, -1 for socially unaware, -1 for having few interests, and -1 for being a follower.
This is just a small problem in every category to get to a -5, Not major penalties to all the areas.
"res a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."
being unkempt is not the only way to represent low CHA. CHA is personal strength, leadership. There are Hags with quite high charisma, I doubt the people in the world see them as great beautiful people they'd love to chat with.
The hot jerk lacky of the main hot jerk girl group is not a leader, bad personality, but super hot. This could well be represented with a CHA of 8 or 10, the negatives outway the positives that her hotness brings.
So a CHA of 5 could be super ugly and a little socially strange, but it shouldn't be a crippling hatred of the person on sight.
Who said crippling hatred, thats just the hyperbole that started getting thrown around because people didn't seem to like the idea that dumping your charisma into the toilet might have rp consequences at one table they dont even play at.
People might not want to sell to you, nobles might uninvite you from events or try to get the party to leave you behind so you dont embarrass them, Peoples initial impression of you will be more negative than someone with a 10 charisma. These are just as legitimate consequences for a low stat as being unable to open a stuck door because you dumped strength to 5.
Perspective: In legacy of fire there is a character described as mangy, and anyone who gets close to them notices an odor that betrays a loose relationship with hygiene who ravenously and sloppily stuffs food in his face when he eats. He's the first person suspected of any wrongdoing by other npcs in the party and generally only tolerated due to his particular expertise. Cha 8, 3points higher than whats being discussed.
As much as people dont like it, its entirely believable that someone is unlikable and unable to convince others through speech or debate but that they are also intelligent enough to know this and rely on charismatic friends to get points across for them. The low CHA guy standing back and letting the face do the talking is no different than the barbarian listening to what the wizard knows about the ancient artifact.
Said character also was raised by gnolls, and not exactly in a pleasant way, you might be extrapolating a little off that one example?
I mean, the counterpoint with appearance goes to point at stuff like Green Hags that have a charisma of 14, and are described like this: "Knots of dark, moldering hair spill over the features of this sickly, thin, green-skinned crone". Not exactly the definition of beauty, nor does it seem like they act like one.
If you are really bothered by your party dumping charisma, throw some tooth fairies at them and watch them scream as they realise their folly. ;)
"res a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."
being unkempt is not the only way to represent low CHA. CHA is personal strength, leadership. There are Hags with quite high charisma, I doubt the people in the world see them as great beautiful people they'd love to chat with.
The hot jerk lacky of the main hot jerk girl group is not a leader, bad personality, but super hot. This could well be represented with a CHA of 8 or 10, the negatives outway the positives that her hotness brings.
So a CHA of 5 could be super ugly and a little socially strange, but it shouldn't be a crippling hatred of the person on sight.
EDIT:
Or lets give a -1 for slightly ugly, -1 for some BO, -1 for socially unaware, -1 for having few interests, and -1 for being a follower.This is just a small problem in every category to get to a -5, Not major penalties to all the areas.
Tell ya what, find me an NPC written somewhere who dumped cha to 5 and isn't presented as socially crippled or hideously deformed and i'll rethink my position. But nothing ive seen anywhere has ever presented someone with a stat that low as anything but crippled in that area of influence.
I think in general Psychic Anthology should be a pretty good boost for all the elements that lack good utility talents at low levels (earth among them). There's a whole lot of new kineticist stuff in there.
One of the downsides to a lot of the elements was that you really didn't have anything interesting to do out of combat until you get much higher level. Sure all the stone shape stuff for the geokineticist is fun, but you get it at 8th-10th level and meanwhile "add your elemental overflow bonus to your CMD against being moved or tripped" is no Telekinetic Finesse.
That's because nobody tried to make a character with 7 or even 5 strength. It's actually much worse for 2 reasons:
1) Carry capacity
2) Shadows!Shadows being the worse of the two. They exist, Paizo seems to love them and find a way to put them everywhere, and they never get old.
I would not consider a medium size character with less than 10 Str, and a Small one with less than 8. Anything less requires someone to carry your gear, only really works for those that want to walk around with no armor, and makes you Shadow bait.
Weeeeell...
My gnome in Emerald Spire has 6 STR. It's worked out.
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"res a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."
being unkempt is not the only way to represent low CHA. CHA is personal strength, leadership. There are Hags with quite high charisma, I doubt the people in the world see them as great beautiful people they'd love to chat with.
The hot jerk lacky of the main hot jerk girl group is not a leader, bad personality, but super hot. This could well be represented with a CHA of 8 or 10, the negatives outway the positives that her hotness brings.
So a CHA of 5 could be super ugly and a little socially strange, but it shouldn't be a crippling hatred of the person on sight.
Who said crippling hatred, thats just the hyperbole that started getting thrown around because people didn't seem to like the idea that dumping your charisma into the toilet might have rp consequences at one table they dont even play at.
People might not want to sell to you, nobles might uninvite you from events or try to get the party to leave you behind so you dont embarrass them, Peoples initial impression of you will be more negative than someone with a 10 charisma. These are just as legitimate consequences for a low stat as being unable to open a stuck door because you dumped strength to 5.
Bottom line: What a low Charisma should represent for a given character should probably be something that is discussed and agreed upon by the GM and the player prior to play. There's just too much variance both at different tables, and within the rules themselves; such internal group clarification becomes necessary to avoid potential conflicts.
EDIT: Sorry, just saw that we're killing this topic. This is my last post on the matter.
AND... i just realized how off point this thread has become... To take it back a little bit:
The first few levels of Kineticist suck but so do most classes at level 1 and 2.
I have a lot of play time with an aeromancer at this point and somewhere on the forums i have a thread of my experiences.
If i had to do it again? Spec' for melee first, Grab Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade at level 1, be a switch hitter from the get go. The class pushes you to DEX and CON so even with light armor and a D8 chassis you can rock the AC and HP of a front liner, dont be afraid to get into melee.
Get PBS and Precise shot when you can. Toughness is great, Opening Volley is good. Weapon Focus is something else to think about as it will boost your ranged and melee attacks.
Your accuracy is going to hurt, as thematic as an earth throwing dorf is, you need to land that hit and you wont have much going for you to help out. By level 4 though you could be looking at 3 BAB, 1 EO, 3 Ability Mod plus whatever party buffs you all get going and thats about on par with a power attacking/deadly aiming front liner. Also since you dont need nearly as much support gear you can dump a lot more into stat boosting items. Push your dex up as fast as you can.
That is kinda what I feared. I'll definitely be prioritizing a dex belt. :) I wish there was a way for me to fit in "weapon focus(K Blast)" somewhere, but as far as I can tell, there aren't any free feats until high level for a "switch hitter" like the geokineticist tends towards (I'm also planning on going Kinetic Whip, Combat Reflexes, and Kinetic Form when they are available to be tanking for the team). At least I'll do good damage when I hit.
I'll take the communal advice of grabbing Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade, and just trying to mix it up in melee as much as possible, as I won't have Precise Shot at lvl 1 either way, so I may as well be good at something. It still feels like the character won't really get rolling mechanically...
So one of the builds i saw was Weapon finesse, combat reflexes lunge, the talent that makes you act as large for reach cmb/cmd, and kinetic whip, basically acting as area denial with high con and invulnerable rager DR. Seems like thats pretty legit.
The Kinetic Knight indeed looks nice. But apparently looses the ability to blast at range.
Also seem like it might not favor earth as it prolly works better if you can target touch AC all day.