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The GM can make whatever ruling he likes, it's his game. However, there is no rule or mechanic to prevent the addition of Str to the damage of a normal melee attack.
It would be different if we were discussing a touch attack spell, like Shocking Grasp - those are different, and have mechanics defining how they work. The Plasma Blade is mechanically a melee weapon, despite dealing energy damage with a touch attack. In fact, a weapon with the Brilliant Energy enchantment is also a melee weapon that uses a touch attack - should it also not get a Str bonus to damage? Why?
GM thinks otherwise because its a "touch" weapon that does energy damage.
Nothing in the rules about touch attack or energy damage says strength doesn't apply.
There are similar abilities that do specifically state that strength does not apply. The flame blade spell, for example. But it has to specifically say that your strength modifier does not apply. If that was the general rule, the spell wouldn't need to state it.
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The closest weapon I can find is the Laser Torch, from the Technology Guide (here). Laser Torch is a light melee weapon that resolves as melee touch and doesn't add Str mod to damage. Deals fire damage only.
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From what I can find, there is no weapon thats base damage is energy that gets to add their strength modifier to damage. Kinetic Blade, warlock's mystic bolts, similar weapons don't do it. With this setting a presidence, I believe that it wouldn't get strength bonus added to damage. It makes sense. Hard to hit harder with something that has no mass. I'd rule the sane as your gm.
I feel like there isn't much of a point in using that weapon if you can't get modifiers with it. It's a touch attack, whoopdeedoo
From what I can find, there is no weapon thats base damage is energy that gets to add their strength modifier to damage. Kinetic Blade, warlock's mystic bolts, similar weapons don't do it. With this setting a presidence, I believe that it wouldn't get strength bonus added to damage. It makes sense. Hard to hit harder with something that has no mass. I'd rule the sane as your gm.
Well, first of all none of the things you mentioned are weapons. They're magical effects you can wield like weapons.
Second, they all (and the laser torch mentioned upthread) go out of their way to mention that they don't add strength. "This weapon specifically says it doesn't add strength to damage, so this other vaguely similar weapon that does not mention any such thing obviously doesn't either" is a bit of a weak argument.
Plus Kinetic Blade just adds a different modifier instead.
Thirdly as Sauce said this ruling would make it absolutely abysmal. Not really a rules argument but still relevant when discussing potential ambiguities.
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I feel like there isn't much of a point in using that weapon if you can't get modifiers with it. It's a touch attack, whoopdeedoo
Depends on your build, and that of the opponent. A Rogue would get decent use out of it.
I will note that this weapon lists a Charge/capacity, which at least implies that it's a Technological weapon, so comparing it to the Laser Torch does seem reasonable.
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Thirdly as Sauce said this ruling would make it absolutely abysmal. Not really a rules argument but still relevant when discussing potential ambiguities.
Indeed. If the rule text could be read two different ways but one reading produces an absurd result, it's a pretty good indicator for how the rules should probably work.
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It's a mele weapon. The rule is you add Strength to damage with mele weapons unless they say otherwise.Or you just ignore the weapon until Paizo FAQs it.
The other energy dealing melee weapon option is the Battle Poi, which as far as I know, still lacks an FAQ on this very question.
I'd agree with this if there was a general rule stating that energy dealing mele weapons did not add strength to damage.
But just because a few other weapons that do energy damage have lines that say you don't add strength doesn't make that the default rule.
Also, it'd be utter garbage for the level you get it at if it just did 1d10 damage without any modifiers added in. Doubly so since it uses charges and won't work soon anyways. Though to be fair, that's not an argument for intent as we've had poor options published before.
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In general, the bigger issue is regarding if the Strength mod is able to add energy damage. I would be down with it - if the strength mod would add slashing damage only (or bludgeoning), but having a stronger character deal more fire or electical damage seems iffy.
As an aside, any clue if the weapon above is considered "timeworn technology"? If so, that makes it unable to be reloaded, which makes this whole debate more iffy, as I really don't care what PCs do with an item they can only use for 10 minutes....
Anyway, if you are the GM, just pick what you want to do. I think it's totally up to the GM. If this is for PFS, you can probably get an official answer in their forums, but that makes it probably not up to the GM per say.
So what book is this even in?
edit: Never mind
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as far as the debate goes, i have seen nothing to suggest a general rule that energy based melee attacks cant add str as other melee attacks can, only specific exceptions for individual abilities.
Search through the books that paizo has FAQed. Find an example of a non-magical melee weapon that deals energy damage. Or even just find an example of a magical melee weapon that adds energy damage. Does your example mention anything regarding using your strength to add damage?
For example, the CRB, the Torch from the adventuring equipment section. Says that an improvised torch deals bludgeoning damage as a gauntlet of it's size, and 1 fire damage.
So, for a medium creature, that's D3 bludeoning+1 fire damage. When adding Strength to damage, do you really think your adding to the fire damage? It doesn't say, but I would venture to guess that you think adding your strength as fire damage is unreasonable in this example. So why is it reasonable on the Plasma Blade?
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From the stat block that the plasma blade was printed with:
Melee plasma blade +17/+12/+7 (1d10+3/19–20/×3)
Str 17
I went over the stat block a couple times and couldn't find anything else that might be adding to it, so it appears that Strength is indeed in play.
It doesn't say, but I would venture to guess that you think adding your strength as fire damage is unreasonable in this example. So why is it reasonable on the Plasma Blade?
Well for starters the plasma blade doesn't do bludgeoning damage. That makes it kind of obvious, really.
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It doesn't say, but I would venture to guess that you think adding your strength as fire damage is unreasonable in this example. So why is it reasonable on the Plasma Blade?Well for starters the plasma blade doesn't do bludgeoning damage. That makes it kind of obvious, really.
Avoiding the question, I figured you'd do that.
OK, here is something very close.
Description:
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
This would tend support the don't add your strength at all interpretation.
The plus 3 damage points the other direction.Interesting thought though, would Dex to Damage work on a Melee attack that doesn't get a STR damage bonus?
I would suggest asking Mark Seifter. This is usually his area of expertise. :v
I could go either way on it. On one hand, I could totally handwave why Strength shouldn't be added to the damage, much like how you can't use Power Attack on melee touch attacks ("If all you have to do is touch something for an effect to work, what good is more force going to do?")
Then again, it is a melee weapon and doesn't specifically say you can't add your Strength bonus. So you could use your natural Strength, but you can't swing forcefully and wildly with a plasma blade using Power Attack.
Avoiding the question, I figured you'd do that.
It's not avoiding it at all: It's reasonable to take a weapon that does bludgeoning damage and then conclude that your strength modifier does bludgeoning damage as well (because that's the kind of damage the weapon does).
It's not reasonable to take a weapon that does not do bludgeoning damage and then assume that if your strength score is high enough it suddenly does.
The closest weapon I can find is the Laser Torch, from the Technology Guide (here). Laser Torch is a light melee weapon that resolves as melee touch and doesn't add Str mod to damage. Deals fire damage only.
This gives me all I'd need to allow a Plasma Blade to add Strength to damage. It doesn't have the same restrictive wording Laser Torch does.
The closest weapon I can find is the Laser Torch, from the Technology Guide (here). Laser Torch is a light melee weapon that resolves as melee touch and doesn't add Str mod to damage. Deals fire damage only.This gives me all I'd need to allow a Plasma Blade to add Strength to damage. It doesn't have the same restrictive wording Laser Torch does.
Is that intended though or an oversight?
Is there any precedent for energy-type or touch weapons adding str? None of the weapons in the TG do.
Can you think of even one?
OK, here is something very close.
Description:
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.This would tend support the don't add your strength at all interpretation.
The plus 3 damage points the other direction.Interesting thought though, would Dex to Damage work on a Melee attack that doesn't get a STR damage bonus?
No, that does not tend to support the "don't add your strength at all" interpretation. Why? Because it specifically has to say you don't add your Strength modifier.
The plasma blade is a melee weapon. By default, you always add your strength modifier to the damage roll with a melee weapon. There has to be a specific rule to change that. There is no specific rule that says weapons doing energy damage, or touch attacks, do not get to add your strength modifier. Individual weapons do have that specific rule written in, but nothing that applies to all such weapons. It might be an oversight, but as written the plasma blade gets your strength modifier to damage.
Is there any precedent for energy-type or touch weapons adding str? None of the weapons in the TG do.
Can you think of even one?
The barbarians hurling rage power?
Hurling, Lesser (Ex): As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object (Core Rulebook 443) plus the barbarian's Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian's level + the barbarian's Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.
A physical attack with an improvised weapon, that is a touch attack. It adds the strength modifier to damage.
A mancatcher is a melee weapon that has a touch attack. It still adds your strength modifier to damage, because it doesn't say you don't get it.
A swashbucklers Perfect Thrust deed turns a normal weapon attack into a touch attack.
The Pinpoint Poisoner feat makes a blowgun dart attack into a touch attack, and you get to add any bonuses that would normally apply to your unarmed strikes damage to the dart damage, which would include your strength modifier.
So there are at least a few ways to have a touch attack weapon that adds your strength modifier to damage. I can't find an example for energy attacks, but all such attacks that would normally get your strength modifier to damage have to have a specific line stating you don't get it. That at least implies that even an energy-based melee weapon touch attack would get your strength modifier to damage unless it specifically said otherwise.
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From the stat block that the plasma blade was printed with:
I went over the stat block a couple times and couldn't find anything else that might be adding to it, so it appears that Strength is indeed in play.Melee plasma blade +17/+12/+7 (1d10+3/19–20/×3)
Str 17
I think this is all the evidence that is really needed. If the NPC using it adds STR, then the PC who kills him and takes it uses STR.
I think this is all the evidence that is really needed. If the NPC using it adds STR, then the PC who kills him and takes it uses STR.From the stat block that the plasma blade was printed with:
I went over the stat block a couple times and couldn't find anything else that might be adding to it, so it appears that Strength is indeed in play.Melee plasma blade +17/+12/+7 (1d10+3/19–20/×3)
Str 17
To be fair, stat blocks aren't always correct. A number of them have potions listed of spells that can't be made into potions.
I believe it is correct in this case, but just because it is in a statblock doesn't make it automatically correct.
I feel like there isn't much of a point in using that weapon if you can't get modifiers with it. It's a touch attack, whoopdeedooDepends on your build, and that of the opponent. A Rogue would get decent use out of it.
A lot of characters can abuse the hell out of such a weapon. Go TWF and anything with bonus damage. It's like TWF pistols without reloading problems!
Weapon Master Fighter with (Greater) Weapon Spec, Bard with Arcane Strike, UnBarbarian with Reckless Rage and Powerful Stance, cBarbarian Elemental Rage (and rage cycled Lesser Elemental Rage), Wyrm Singer Skald with Reckless Rage, Arcane Strike and Elemental Rage, Warpriest with the regular stuff, the list goes on.
I feel like there isn't much of a point in using that weapon if you can't get modifiers with it. It's a touch attack, whoopdeedoo.
Guns I mean really that's all the reason anyone needs to see why it might be limited. The outrage over gun touch attacks led to having a weapon group that needs to break the laws of time and space to be competitive a lot of the time. And other modifiers would apply i mean if your a low str Finesse build then this could be great.
On the other hand Brilliant Energy turns the weapon in light and still gets STR so it's still anybody's game.
On the other hand Brilliant Energy turns the weapon in light and still gets STR so it's still anybody's game.
Brilliant energy weapons aren't totally energy, but only a "significant portion", though weight isn't changed. So it is still partly physical. They also aren't a touch attack.
On the other hand Brilliant Energy turns the weapon in light and still gets STR so it's still anybody's game.Brilliant energy weapons aren't totally energy, but only a "significant portion", though weight isn't changed. So it is still partly physical. They also aren't a touch attack.
Just going off the massless theory. And while not a touch attack it's pretty close.
The barbarians hurling rage power?A physical attack with an improvised weapon, that is a touch attack. It adds the strength modifier to damage.
A swashbucklers Perfect Thrust deed turns a normal weapon attack into a touch attack.
The Pinpoint Poisoner feat makes a blowgun dart attack into a touch attack, and you get to add any bonuses that would normally apply to your unarmed strikes damage to the dart damage, which would include your strength modifier.
Interesting. The hurling rage power is one example, although it does specifically state it adds str (it wouldn't have added it otherwise since falling objects don't normally add str).
I don't know what you mean by "a physical attack with an improvised weapon ," could you elaborate please?
The other two are both special cases of attacks with weapons that already have their own rules. There are a quite few other special abilities like this that change some of the normal rules for normal weapons, but don't really have any bearing on attacks not using these special abilities.
It's hard to draw any inferences from Hurling since, like flame blade, it specifically states whether or not str damage is applied.
Just going off the massless theory. And while not a touch attack it's pretty close.On the other hand Brilliant Energy turns the weapon in light and still gets STR so it's still anybody's game.Brilliant energy weapons aren't totally energy, but only a "significant portion", though weight isn't changed. So it is still partly physical. They also aren't a touch attack.
It's pretty close for someone wearing full plate and a heavy shield, but against a creature with natural armor, mage armor, and shield, Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore any of it, but none of these adds to touch AC.
Interesting. The hurling rage power is one example, although it does specifically state it adds str (it wouldn't have added it otherwise since falling objects don't normally add str).
I don't know what you mean by "a physical attack with an improvised weapon ," could you elaborate please?
It is in regards to the hurling ability. It is a physical attack, not an energy attack. It attacks as an improvised weapon. Therefore, it is a weapon attack as a touch attack that still gets your Strength modifier to damage.
All of that was in response to the question:
Is there any precedent for energy-type or touch weapons adding str? None of the weapons in the TG do.
Can you think of even one?
All of what I posted were examples of touch attacks adding strength. So there is precedent for touch attacks that add strength.
It's pretty close for someone wearing full plate and a heavy shield, but against a creature with natural armor, mage armor, and shield, Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore any of it, but none of these adds to touch AC.
Mage armor and shield actually do add to touch attacks, but only against incorporeal touch attacks.