What happens to a deity's soul, or equivalent, when they die? Is this any different for the soul of a demigod?
Assuming the existence of a deity's soul, is there any use for it? For example, devourers can use souls for power, daemons snack on them, souls can become other things such as new outsiders or incorporeal undead, so on.
And on a not entirely unrelated subject; Is there anything that can or does function in place of a soul? If so, how does it interact with the process souls go through differently, if it does so at all?
What happens to a deity's soul, or equivalent, when they die? Is this any different for the soul of a demigod?
Assuming the existence of a deity's soul, is there any use for it? For example, devourers can use souls for power, daemons snack on them, souls can become other things such as new outsiders or incorporeal undead, so on.
I haven't seen anything on this in a canon source yet. I'd venture that it's complicated, as (per The First World) the entire concept of souls, and the River of Souls cycle, is designed to fairly distribute life energy between deities' home planes without deity intervention. If a deity has a soul in the same sense as a mortal, they'd have their own (likely more substantial) amount of that same life energy at their disposal, which might have some effect on the planar energy economy that the River is supposed to balance.
From what I understand so far, it's more likely that if a deity has anything like a soul, it's probably an amount of aligned quintessence—the post-soul type of energy that comprises the Outer Planes and outsiders—which would jibe with how the planes and outsiders interact with alignment. In that scenario, when a deity dies, their quintessence would likely hop back into the end-stage of the River of Souls, be cleansed of its alignment in the Maelstrom, and fire back off toward the Positive Energy Plane, much like an outsider's would. Without the deity serving as a plane's "anchor", the rest of its plane might eventually follow suit unless another deity takes over that realm. (See Aroden's domain in Axis, which is vacant and which Iomedae notably doesn't inhabit.)
Xuldarinar wrote:
And on a not entirely unrelated subject; Is there anything that can or does function in place of a soul? If so, how does it interact with the process souls go through differently, if it does so at all?
There's nothing I know of in canon, but as a metaphysical hypothesis, a soul is mostly a specialized form of directed raw positive-energy but unaligned potentiality. Someone with enough time, power, and connections to the Positive Energy Plane could potentially "synthesize" a soul.
Probably a good place for that person to start their research would be a multidimensional teardown of an android corpse to see how and why a soul can enter an android corpse and bring it back to life after its previous soul exits, without undeath/negative energy getting involved. There aren't many relevant examples among more natural creatures: per canon, souls usually seek out births and hop into a body at that point, making research complicated. An android would be much easier to observe.
Aluums are also good candidates, since they're golems powered by souls instead of elemental spirits, and their creation is kept secret by inscrutable Pactmasters. Someone knows how to either trap souls or subvert the river to force a soul into a specific body, which would be an important step in doing something useful with a synthetic soul.
There's also fey, who recycle their own souls into the First World instead of the Outer Planes. The closed-circuit nature of their lifecycles would be easier, if not necessarily easy, to study than the scale of the full River.
In any case, forging a soul would make for a hell of a high-level plot hook. Pharasma, and probably most other lawful gods, won't approve of mortals tampering with any part of their energy economy.
Deites do have a sole. Aroden was judged by Pharasma after his death. The matter that she didn't tell Iomedae about this event, made the latter a bit unhappy with Pharasma.
Thank you all thus far. Looking around I found references to 'soul-like' things. This isn't an end to the discussion, but rather more to discuss and clarify;
(At least according to the wiki)
Quasi-Soul: Demon lords apparently have their 'quasi-souls' in the Realm of Repose. So I guess thats just where they go?
Un-soul: Apparently something that urdefhans possess. A soul derived from negative energy, rather than positive.
Deites do have a sole. Aroden was judged by Pharasma after his death. The matter that she didn't tell Iomedae about this event, made the latter a bit unhappy with Pharasma.
We don't know that she judged him. We don't know anything. Pharasma has said nothing about Aroden's fate—that's what Aroden's and Iomedae's followers were upset about. (A Song of Silver p73)
The only mention I can find of Pharasma judging Aroden is attributed to claims from "legends", which also suggest Pharasma knew Aroden would die. They don't come directly from any deity and aren't confirmed elsewhere. (Inner Sea Gods p117) Even Iomedae is in the dark about Pharasma's role.
Deites do have a sole. Aroden was judged by Pharasma after his death. The matter that she didn't tell Iomedae about this event, made the latter a bit unhappy with Pharasma.
We don't know that she judged him. We don't know anything. Pharasma has said nothing about Aroden's fate—that's what Aroden's and Iomedae's followers were upset about. (A Song of Silver p73)
The only mention I can find of Pharasma judging Aroden is attributed to claims from "legends", which also suggest Pharasma knew Aroden would die. They don't come directly from any deity and aren't confirmed elsewhere. (Inner Sea Gods p117) Even Iomedae is in the dark about Pharasma's role.
Are there other sources I'm missing on this?
James Jacobs has stated she judged him, I believe. Would have to go look for the posts to double check though.
Deites do have a sole. Aroden was judged by Pharasma after his death. The matter that she didn't tell Iomedae about this event, made the latter a bit unhappy with Pharasma.
We don't know that she judged him. We don't know anything. Pharasma has said nothing about Aroden's fate—that's what Aroden's and Iomedae's followers were upset about. (A Song of Silver p73)
The only mention I can find of Pharasma judging Aroden is attributed to claims from "legends", which also suggest Pharasma knew Aroden would die. They don't come directly from any deity and aren't confirmed elsewhere. (Inner Sea Gods p117) Even Iomedae is in the dark about Pharasma's role.
Are there other sources I'm missing on this?
James Jacobs has stated she judged him, I believe. Would have to go look for the posts to double check though.
Strange, I really remember reading about Aroden being judged by Pharasma somewhere in pathfinder material.
Well, maybe I just mixed James answer with a mention in Pharasmas "Relations with other religions", in Inner Sea Gods, which says that Iomedae views Lady of Graves with some resentment because she kept Arodens approaching death secret.
I definitely remember that Aroden has been judged by Pharasma.
I also remember that he was a mortal who ascended to godhood without dying and being judged first, so his fate may not say anything about what happens to gods who die without skipping that step. Demon Lords, for example, go to the Rift of Repose as a statute, they don't get a second trip to see Pharasma.
I'd love for someone to have a source definitively saying she judged him. It'd help a ton.
Here are the canon references I can find to Aroden being judged by Pharasma in 50 books that mention either Aroden and Pharasma, and also judgment. tl;dr: All of them refer to in-world legends that might be unreliable, rather than conclusive statements or direct revelations.
--
Faiths of Balance p16: "It’s said that even Aroden was judged after his death by the Lady of Graves."
Gods and Magic p30: "Legends claim that Pharasma knew the death of Aroden was fast approaching and even judged him..."
Inner Sea World Guide (one question of whether Tar-Baphon killed Aroden; ISWG repeats the same "Legends claim that Pharasma knew the death of Aroden was fast approaching and even judged him" line as Gods and Magic)
Inner Sea Gods p118: "Legends claim that Pharasma saw Aroden's death approaching—and even judged him as she does for all those born as mortals ..."
Sources that cover Aroden's death and/or Pharasmin judgment in detail, but don't mention Aroden being judged:
Several campaign setting books, AP articles, and especially 'Beyond the Vault of Souls' and 'Liar's Blade':
The Great Beyond: A Guide to the Multiverse (detailed description of the Pharasmin judgement process, but no mention of Aroden undergoing it)
A Song of Silver (article on Aroden only mentions Pharasma withholding foreknowledge of Aroden's fate)
Trial of the Beast (article on Pharasma, "legends claim" Pharasma had foreknowledge of Aroden's death; Iomedeans resent her for keeping Aroden's death a secret)
Heaven Unleashed (several references to what happened on Golarion when Aroden died, but no references to Pharasmin judgment)
Beyond the Vault of Souls (conspiracy theory by mortals and outsiders suggesting that Aroden had a soul, that it was shattered upon his death, and that Pharasma has fragments of it in soul gems kept in the Vault of Souls. By the end of the module this is all proven out to be a falsified plot by proteans to drop Groteus faster, and the best-case result is the creation of a paradoxical demigod of atheism. Metaphysics, everybody!)
Faiths & Philosophies (several mentions of Arodenite religion, but no legends or references to judgment)
The Sixfold Trial (article on Iomedae notes the transfer of followers from Aroden, but not any sort of Pharasmin judgment)
Occult Mysteries p7: "Whatever the truth, Pharasma holds the secrets of his death close, and even the evil gods have not dared to leak the information, if indeed they even know it themselves." Also, "As a GM, you may use whatever story of Aroden's death works best for your campaign. ... Be sure to keep the mystery alive, however", suggesting there isn't, shouldn't, and won't be a definitive answer--confirmation of judgment could interfere with GM theories.
Humans of Golarion (article on Aroden, no mention of judgment)
Liar's Blade (another false resurrection plot)
That's not comprehensive, but I went through about 50 books and I'm about burned out on looking.
I'd love for someone to have a source definitively saying she judged him. It'd help a ton.
Here are the canon references I can find to Aroden being judged by Pharasma in 50 books that mention either Aroden and Pharasma, and also judgment. tl;dr: All of them refer to in-world legends that might be unreliable, rather than conclusive statements or direct revelations.
--
Faiths of Balance p16: "It’s said that even Aroden was judged after his death by the Lady of Graves."
Gods and Magic p30: "Legends claim that Pharasma knew the death of Aroden was fast approaching and even judged him..."
Inner Sea World Guide (one question of whether Tar-Baphon killed Aroden; ISWG repeats the same "Legends claim that Pharasma knew the death of Aroden was fast approaching and even judged him" line as Gods and Magic)
Inner Sea Gods p118: "Legends claim that Pharasma saw Aroden's death approaching—and even judged him as she does for all those born as mortals ..."
Sources that cover Aroden's death and/or Pharasmin judgment in detail, but don't mention Aroden being judged:
** spoiler omitted **...
That does remind me. Suppose that his death was actually part of the Prophesy and he was sent to Cheliax as planned. I wonder then if he was born into the House of Thrune. I wonder how long the process takes, and if we know anyone who might have been him.. But that may be the subject of another thread.
In the book Mythic Realms on page 12 it says that the dead goddess Acavna's "soul attempted to free itself and journey to the Boneyard for Pharasma's judgment." Which means gods have souls and are judged by Pharasma.
Take that with all of these quotes form Garrett,
Garrett Guillotte wrote:
Faiths of Balance p16: "It’s said that even Aroden was judged after his death by the Lady of Graves."
Gods and Magic p30: "Legends claim that Pharasma knew the death of Aroden was fast approaching and even judged him..."
Inner Sea World Guide (one question of whether Tar-Baphon killed Aroden; ISWG repeats the same "Legends claim that Pharasma knew the death of Aroden was fast approaching and even judged him" line as Gods and Magic)
Inner Sea Gods p118: "Legends claim that Pharasma saw Aroden's death approaching—and even judged him as she does for all those born as mortals ..."
And Aroden had a soul and was judged by Pharasma.
Getting back to the main question at hand,in the book Hell Unleashed under the article about the Book of the Damned pg 19. It mentions that one of the greatest secrets gods don't want mortals to know is the fate of dead deities. I believe that's all that has ever been mentioned about that.
