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A ranged weapon with listed dmg AND the trip quality. I've been told that it deals dmg with the added benefit of being able to trip, however it is not capable of doing both at once. Based on what bolas do in real life, I always assumed it both dealt the dmg (via the weights striking you) and tripped (through the ropes), so the person could roll the attack and, on hit, roll the dmg and a CMB. But I've not found any official ruling. How do they work officially?
No they don't, thats Disarm and Sunder you are thinking of. The Trip quality is parenthesized with the word Ranged to indicate that the weapon can perform a trip attack at a distance, that is it. Like Trip Arrows.
Additionally, no, they cannot deal damage and trip at the same time without some kind of class feature or other effect adding in damage.
Is this stupid? Of course it is.
I believe the Sunder quality is also defined as adding +2 in the Adventurer's Armory companion book. It is only seen on the Flambard and was added to the Swordbreaker Dagger which means those proficient in the Dagger have +6 to sunder bladed weapons.
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No they don't, thats Disarm and Sunder you are thinking of. The Trip quality is parenthesized with the word Ranged to indicate that the weapon can perform a trip attack at a distance, that is it. Like Trip Arrows.
Additionally, no, they cannot deal damage and trip at the same time without some kind of class feature or other effect adding in damage.
Is this stupid? Of course it is.
Ranged Trip (Combat, Targeting)
This would be the feat needed to do both damage and trip
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A ranged weapon with listed dmg AND the trip quality. I've been told that it deals dmg with the added benefit of being able to trip, however it is not capable of doing both at once. Based on what bolas do in real life, I always assumed it both dealt the dmg (via the weights striking you) and tripped (through the ropes), so the person could roll the attack and, on hit, roll the dmg and a CMB. But I've not found any official ruling. How do they work officially?
Poorly written, but basically you can attempt a ranged trip attack with this instead of attacking normally. RAW, ranged trip uses normal CMB (so uses STR mod), but most GMs will rule that Dex is more appropriate here.
You would still apply ranged penalties to attack to your CMB roll (which would also include ranged increment penalties).
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I've been wanting to know the answer to these questions for a LONG time.
I've heard plenty of people say you're supposed to use Dex instead of Str on that CMB check, even though I've never seen any evidence whatsoever that, that is correct.
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I've been wanting to know the answer to these questions for a LONG time.
I've heard plenty of people say you're supposed to use Dex instead of Str on that CMB check, even though I've never seen any evidence whatsoever that, that is correct.
Paizo doesn't really seem that interested in updating the CRB. Many GM's I've played under use the Dex for ranged CMB. You are correct, there's nothing offical there.
Really, the main issue is for class archetypes, like the Fighter's Archer archetype from AVP which gains the ability to use certain maneuvers with a bow. Kinda crippling to suggest that the dex based fighter must use str for these maneuvers. And kinda ridiculous to suggest that brute force would make those trick shots easier.
And kinda ridiculous to suggest that brute force would make those trick shots easier.
In that specific example, you'd be correct, but in the case of bolas I can't help but think a stronger throwing arm is MORE likely to get someone on the ground.
That's not to say I don't like the idea of Dex to CMB. I think it's a fine house rule, but that appears to be all that it is.
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That's not to say I don't like the idea of Dex to CMB. I think it's a fine house rule, but that appears to be all that it is.
You are correct, it is definitely a houserule.
That said, I mentioned it in the rules section because it is so commonly houseruled as such, that it does seem worth mentioning to any player that is attempting to use it.
For ranged characters that have to use STR for maneuvers, try the Agile Maneuvers feat. It probably exists for precisely this reason.
It's something I know well because I have an axe-thrower with Sliding Axe Throw that will probably never see the light of day, partly because if I trip someone I'm making it harder for me to hit them with my own ranged attacks. Hnnnnh.
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Well, if you want to be really strictly raw, ranged penalties would not apply.
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
"Your attack bonus with a ranged weapon is:
Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty"
So, the same rule that says to use str, also says to ignore ranged penalties.
Bab+size+dex+ranged penalties is discarded in favor of bab+str+special size.
Or, you can count "dex and ranged penalties" as an "other effect" related to using a ranged weapon.
I can't think of an interpretation that results in str + ranged penalties.
Actually that is a really good point... and I would add the only limiting factor to the trip (per RAW) would be that the range (max) could not be greater than 50 feet. Hmmmm... makes bolas a reasonable choice again.
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I was happy until a few minutes ago when I re-read the section on Combat Maneuvers- calculating CMB and noticed the last sentence.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
So that would apply to the inclusion of range modifiers.
Drats, foiled again!!!