The maximum level for any normal person is 5. These represents the best of the best of the best; the professional athletes and veteran soldiers. Most average guards should be level 1, or level 2 tops.
Going beyond that you reach unique people who are the paragons of their generations or professions. Getting into the double digits are heroes and saints, people who will go down in history as legends.
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And then you have Brodert Quink, a Sandpoint resident who's a level 7 expert. And he's hardly considered the "best of the best."
And Rasputin is an 18th level Oracle, what's your point? Pathfinder is inconsistent at the best of times.
What is important is that you set a consistent scale. PFS, for example, doesn't go above certain levels in normal play.
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And Rasputin is an 18th level Oracle, what's your point? Pathfinder is inconsistent at the best of times.
Rasputin is a unique creature, created for a unique encounter, in a unique adventure path, to challenge a high level party.
So you're really running thin on your strong man argument.
And Rasputin is an 18th level Oracle, what's your point? Pathfinder is inconsistent at the best of times.
Rasputin is a unique creature, created for a unique encounter, in a unique adventure path, to challenge a high level party.
So you're really running thin on your strong man argument.
Then the answer becomes "the level of the average guard is based on the level of the party encountering them", which isn't all that helpful
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I wouldn't consider the max level to be 5, but it really isn't necessary to have high leveled NPCs. The worst your average town guard is going to have to deal with is the local bandits, and if we go by the assumption that most ordinary people are fairly low level, these local bandits aren't going to be that strong either. If they are, the kingdom has a serious problem and needs Adventurers, ASAP. Otherwise, they need to deal with things like wolves, which are a significant threat but a pack of guards should be able to handle a pack of wolves.
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And Rasputin is an 18th level Oracle, what's your point? Pathfinder is inconsistent at the best of times.
As I recall, in that same book, the average (or even low-skilled) Russian soldier was a level 6 fighter. Clearly, average Russian troops from the early 20th century are as skilled as some of Golarion's finest.
Then the answer becomes "the level of the average guard is based on the level of the party encountering them", which isn't all that helpfulAnd Rasputin is an 18th level Oracle, what's your point? Pathfinder is inconsistent at the best of times.
Rasputin is a unique creature, created for a unique encounter, in a unique adventure path, to challenge a high level party.
So you're really running thin on your strong man argument.
Well... yes. IF it's the intention that this be a challenging encounter. And AGAIN, Rasputin describes a UNIQUE encounter that's part of a linear story path. 1908 Russia isn't full of 18th level Oracles with a bizarre archetype.
Comparing this with a typical random encounter doesn't even approach an Apples/Oranges matchup.
And Rasputin is an 18th level Oracle, what's your point? Pathfinder is inconsistent at the best of times.As I recall, in that same book, the average (or even low-skilled) Russian soldier was a level 6 fighter. Clearly, average Russian troops from the early 20th century are as skilled as some of Golarion's finest.
Correct, given that Foot Soldiers are level 1 in the Bestiary and Warriors are level 2 a Russian soldier would tear through them.
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Scale Mail only costs 50 GP, so it's perfectly in-line with expectations for 1st level NPC's.
As for what level the soldiers should be, that's a difficult worldbuilding question and there's no right answer. I follow the rule of halves for these purposes: for any general population about half of all people are 1st level, one quarter are 2nd level, one eighth are 3rd level, one sixteenth are 4th level, and so on and so forth. Since soldiers are drawn out of the general population, the vast majority (about 9 in 10) would be 1st-3rd level. Those few that are higher level would likely be promoted to higher rankings and wouldn't be exactly "common" footsoldiers.
The "level 5 limit" is another rule of thumb that works best for low fantasy settings that hew close to the real world, since level 5 is about the threshold at which even NPC classes can start doing non-magical things that are impossible in real life. If you're running E6 or E7 that's a great rule of thumb, but in a more standard Pathfinder setting similar to Golarion the superhuman isn't exactly uncommon so there will be a handful of people who exceed 5th level even in small villages.
As for Paizo AP's, they follow the rule of "whatever level the NPC needs to be for narrative purposes". If the PC's are supposed to fight them, then their level is set to make for an appropriate encounter. This isn't very great for worldbuilding, but works well for storytelling provided the PC's don't start asking questions.
Makes you wonder how all the kingdoms of Golarion haven't been overthrown already.
A single lvl 12 mage (at the end of a PFS career) could destroy an army of lvl 1-5s.
I mean, let's say that you have a platoon. Let's assume that it is made up out of 42 lvl 1-2 fighters, 7 lvl 2-3 fighters (the sergeants and staff sergeants) and a lvl 4 first sergeant.
They're in a shield wall. Fighting like normal people fought back then. Assuming Con14 average, the lvl 1s all have 13HP. The lvl 2s have 24HP. The lvl 3s have 33HP. The lvl4 has 42HP.
The single wizard casts fireball. That's going to hit a good chunk of them for 10d6 damage. Enough to kill even the first sergeant in one go. Let's say that the wizard quickened it, so he gets to throw another fireball. Most of the platoon is dead in one round. From up to 80ft away.
I mean...against that an army of lvl 1-5s would just evaporate. And their scale mail isn't going to help at all.
It seems like if there is a war both countries should just take all of their high level characters and have them fight. Whichever side wins that wins the war, because the army itself will be useless against them. :P
Makes you wonder how all the kingdoms of Golarion haven't been overthrown already.
The same reason armies of giants or other powerful monsters haven't taken over - the person running the games doesn't them want to. It is the same reason a lot of setting are just medieval Europe with magic thrown in, without actually looking at what magic is capable of and how society would have developed differently with it.
There are many things about the game and most setting that make no logical sense.
Your example of fighting in a shield wall, like normal "back then". Normal for medieval Europe, yes. In a setting with easily available area of effect magic, probably not as normal. Just like castles shouldn't look like medieval castles - medieval castles didn't have to worry about giants stepping/hopping over the walls, aerial cavalry raining down rocks or magic, or dragon fire.
Making the changes to the setting that easily available magic and powerful monsters bring would require would make the setting nothing close to real-world medieval.
Really, I feel like the "skilled warrior" cap should be at 10, with members of major armies around 7-8. That small, sleepy backwater whose biggest problems are goblins? Of course their guards are level 3-4. The biggest threat to their regular existence is the tribe of (let's say 50) CR 1/3 pests.
Besides, in a world with gods and monsters, what self-respecting king wouldn't have massive amounts of skilled warriors at their disposal?
For that matter, the best tactic would be to try and ally with a couple of dragons, lure trolls into alliances formed around lots of food, get your court wizards spamming planar binding, and strike with hit-and-run tactics. Honestly, the classic idea of a medieval army marching off to war simply wouldn't fly in a setting with magic. A magical battlefield would look a lot like a modern one, only with dragons, not fighter planes, and fireballs instead of grenades.
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http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gameMasteryGuide/nPCGallery.html
Cavarly listed as lvl 6 Fighter
General listed as lvl 11 Fighter
Would a shieldwall count as cover, giving both a reflex bonus and evasion? Also, the radius of the spell is 20', which means you're getting at most eight soldiers in a rank with it. Two ranks means that you've got at most sixteen soldiers in your AoE. So you're getting around a third of the unit at best.
Not that I think you'd see particularly medieval formations all the time in a PF-style war. Skirmish lines, shallow formations, troops all armed with some sort of missiles, those are more likely. Or the unit standards provide magical protection to the troops - when you consider the religious ceremonies attached to ones on Earth, assuming that on Golarion those same religious ceremonies provide no benefits at all seems mildly unlikely.
As fireball is a spread, which can turn corners, cover shouldn't apply (the fireball will just go around the edge of a shield or into any gap and spread out from there). And a shield wall will have the people much closer together than 5 feet, so more than 8 in a a row will be hit (most formations do not map to a 1 creature/5 foot square grid). Not to mention you can target the fireball just above their heads, not in front of the shield wall.
You can hit far more than just 16 soldiers. Aimed in the middle of the unit, just above their heads, assuming 1 person per square, you could hit as many as 44 Medium-sized soldiers.
I generally put soldiers a lvl 1 or 2 warriors, 3 if they are seasoned.
Elite forces might use actual fighters rather than warriors.
Elite forces could be made up of lvl5 combatants, with officers of accordingly higher level if they are truly experienced (the lvl 2 aristocrat commanding a troop made of elite lvl 5 warriors, with a couple seargeants who are real lvl 7 warriors or fighters is always a possibility...)
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If I'm trying for a realistic setting, I just use a level 1 Warrior and level 2 at the very most. The Foot Soldier in the GM guide is even noted as being much tougher than your average person and could withstand blows that could kill a common man.
Even if a soldier has as low as a +3 bonus to their ranged attack, with farshot they can shoot and hit a fine sized object nearly 1,000 ft. away 50% of the time with a longbow if you run the numbers.
I've seen people (not necessarily in this thread) who stat them as 5th level fighters, but I just don't buy it. The dude's going to have more hit points than a fully grown Rhinoceros and can cleave through half a dozen soldiers before they even attack.
Level 10 is just too overboard. Think it was impressive when Legolas took down an Oplihant by himself using his Bow? What about a Brawler taking one down with his fists?
They share the same CR, too, which goes to show you how deadly a 10th level character is.
Sorry for the rambling. I was trying to offer some perspective.
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Well, the important thing to remember here is that Golarion isn't earth, so the same benchmarks don't apply to soldiers there as they do to soldiers here. If we're talking about things that should kill a common amn but don't kill a Golarionite, just look at falling. On Earth, it is possible to die from falling off a chair, if you're unlucky. Golarion? A lucky person could fall from orbit, get up and walk away without so much as a sore back.
Also, there has to be at least a few retired adventurers in the army; it's inconceivable that not a single soldier "used to be an adventurer like you; then I took an arrow to the knee," or the Golarion equivalent.
And of course humans can do supernatural things. Golarion humans are not Earth humans. Golarion humans have adapted to surviving in a world that could literally eat them at any time. Let's assume that the best of the best
Also, a +3 to ranged attack isn't hard at all. A level 1 warrior with 14 Dex has that, or a level 2 one with 12 Dex. It's the Farshot feat that would make that skill rarer. But, in any case, what's wrong with that? Here's a few scenarios where even a low-level character could blow away anything we on Earth have, never mind combat ability:
The Olympic record for 50 meter (150 feet in Golarion) swim is 21.3 seconds. A level 5 rogue with 5 ranks in swim and the skill unlock could do that same distance in 45 seconds. A level 10 one could do it in 15.
The world standing high jump record is 8 feet. A level 1 monk with +12 to acrobatics (1 rank, 5 dex, skil focus, class skill) could make that 1/20 of the time.
And the list goes on, but I'm out of time, so I'll leave it at that. Basically, Golarion humans are awesome.
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There really is no single answer to this question. It really comes down to the DM's world building.
There are a number of questions you can ask yourself to come up with an answer. So that your foot soldier, town guard, commoners, etc fit in and don't break verisimilitude. Here are a few to get you started.
First, What is your world's level cap? This sets the scale. Are there more then a small handful of epic level people in the world? The more epic people the more mid level people there would probably be. So your commoners can easily scale up to match. On the other hand if your looking at E6 or a variation then you would probably scale down.
How special are your Pcs : Are your pcs considered heroes right from level 1? or are they common folk themselves that may or may not rise to greatness.
How much adversity is in the life of a commoner : In a large metropolis where people live relatively safe and comfortable lives your typical commoner or guard will be low level as their day to day is rather mundane. On the other hand if your town is more remote, colonial, in a war zone, plagued by bugbears from the mountains, settled by veterans from a war etc. then your commoners probably have a few levels and your guards a few more to match.
I stat them as necessary for the story I want to tell. If they're supposed to fight (or be led by) the PCs, then I take the PCs' level into account.
But if we're talking about standard base-line for the world in general? I usually put common foot soldiers as Warrior 1, elite foot soldiers as Warrior 3, and specialists as PC classes, depending on their function and role.
But, then again, I tend not to bother nailing down stats for generic NPCs when doing world-building. I only stat up an NPC if the stats become relevant, such as if there's going to be a fight or if dice are otherwise hitting the table.
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For the example of the 12th level wizard vs a platoon of soldiers, that's roughly equivalent to making medieval soldiers fight a helicopter shooting rockets at them. Yeah, they're going to die.
But realize that the fantasy soldiers have knowledge of the existence of magic, and probably have adapted tactics to deal with it. Scattering and switching to slings comes to mind, for example. Also, I would assume that most units would have a low level adept assigned to them for basic magic expertise/access. A single 4th level adept using see invisibility to direct missile fire for an army could possibly make Mr. 12th level wizard reconsider his day. Focus fire from several dozen/hundred ranged attacks gets through a lot of defenses.
Is it a sure thing? Heck no. Like most things tactical, it's sequence of actions and counters. But a little forethought and a unit of 1st-3rd level soldiers are not innately screwed in a battle against a single adventurer.
Also, a +3 to ranged attack isn't hard at all. A level 1 warrior with 14 Dex has that, or a level 2 one with 12 Dex. It's the Farshot feat that would make that skill rarer. But, in any case, what's wrong with that?
One problem is it's almost impossible to have an army of low-level soldiers who wouldn't get wiped out in the time it takes to close the distance on a group of archers on a battlefield. Pathfinder melee weapons are only competitive in confined spaces with limited visibility.
Then again, maybe this isn't entirely unrealistic. It just means most battlefields would be like Agincourt.
Makes you wonder how all the kingdoms of Golarion haven't been overthrown already.
A single lvl 12 mage (at the end of a PFS career) could destroy an army of lvl 1-5s.
I mean, let's say that you have a platoon. Let's assume that it is made up out of 42 lvl 1-2 fighters, 7 lvl 2-3 fighters (the sergeants and staff sergeants) and a lvl 4 first sergeant.
They're in a shield wall. Fighting like normal people fought back then. Assuming Con14 average, the lvl 1s all have 13HP. The lvl 2s have 24HP. The lvl 3s have 33HP. The lvl4 has 42HP.
The single wizard casts fireball. That's going to hit a good chunk of them for 10d6 damage. Enough to kill even the first sergeant in one go. Let's say that the wizard quickened it, so he gets to throw another fireball. Most of the platoon is dead in one round. From up to 80ft away.
I mean...against that an army of lvl 1-5s would just evaporate. And their scale mail isn't going to help at all.
It seems like if there is a war both countries should just take all of their high level characters and have them fight. Whichever side wins that wins the war, because the army itself will be useless against them. :P
Not really. The game system is actually very, very poorly made to deal with large numbers of enemies, and extended conflicts.
Most spells that aren't just simple buffs have a duration of minutes at best. Facing an army of 1000, many of which are shooting arrows at you... that will eventually wear down your spells.
Remember- in this game, ACTION ECONOMY IS KING. An army of 1000 gets 1000 turns. Even if they are measily levels 1-5, that still means they can do 1000 standard actions to shoot a bow. And while yes, there are spells to protect from that... you still run against the 'spell duration' problem'. You might have to spend all your decent spell slots on protection from arrows just to not die.... and even then it is dicey.
Heck, even the highest CR red dragons could be taken down by 1000 mage apprentices shooting ray of frost cantrips.
There is a reason why the PC's are usually asked to kill the enemy warlord, rather than wiping out 1000's of orcs personally. It is easy for a high level party to burst in and do a quick kill of a specific target... but large scale subjugation is still a problem. Assassinations are the place for individual skill- everything else is a game of numbers.
Unless we are talking about earth element kineticists. Those guys can be custom made to destroy armies with hit and run tactics and enough DR that it is hard for the rank and file to do even 1 damage to them.
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Besides, in a world with gods and monsters, what self-respecting king wouldn't have massive amounts of skilled warriors at their disposal?
That's a big one. Given how quickly an AP takes you through the first few levels, no self-respecting kingdom should ever have a soldier lower than fighter 5, and given that essentially anyone can learn magic in some form, it's likely the ranks would be suffused with gishes and full casters as well. Unless there is some sort of diegetic reason why people don't advance as far or as fast as PCs, the average soldier of a large nation should be a force to be reckoned with.
As for villages or small settlements that rarely have to contend with large existential threats, you're more likely to see the low-level types who are probably more militia than professional soldiers.
Given how quickly an AP takes you through the first few levels, no self-respecting kingdom should ever have a soldier lower than fighter 5
I reached level 5 after killing around 30 enemies. So to get an army to level 5, they just have kill about 30 other armies.
Besides, in a world with gods and monsters, what self-respecting king wouldn't have massive amounts of skilled warriors at their disposal?That's a big one. Given how quickly an AP takes you through the first few levels, no self-respecting kingdom should ever have a soldier lower than fighter 5, and given that essentially anyone can learn magic in some form, it's likely the ranks would be suffused with gishes and full casters as well. Unless there is some sort of diegetic reason why people don't advance as far or as fast as PCs, the average soldier of a large nation should be a force to be reckoned with.
As for villages or small settlements that rarely have to contend with large existential threats, you're more likely to see the low-level types who are probably more militia than professional soldiers.
There is only so much room for individual strength when it comes to soldiers. In real life, it is usually just a numbers game. That is why the spear was one of the most popular weapons in the era of cold weapons- it was cheap to produce, and it was not hard to train random farmers to use ('keep the pointy end between you and the target, and thurst when they get close'; even just standing there stupidly with their spears out can still lets them serve a defense since charging enemies have to worry about running into the spears).
Now, if we are talking about the king's guard, or the guard around a general... then yes. They should be of a much, much higher quality. Both in game and in life... it is WAY easier to just attempt to kill 1 leader than it is to wipe out an entire army of hundreds or thousands.
Canon fodder are there to waste the enemies' time while you have archers fill them full of arrows. They are replaceable, and their actual quality only has a slight advantage. But the guards of the king (or other elites) need to protect the big tactical weakness. Ergo, they need to actually be strong enough to deal with threats.
So I would say that common soldiers are levels 1-5. Everyone higher than that are transferred over to key positions like the king's guard.
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Given how quickly an AP takes you through the first few levels, no self-respecting kingdom should ever have a soldier lower than fighter 5I reached level 5 after killing around 30 enemies. So to get an army to level 5, they just have kill about 30 other armies.
Or, do it the way PCs do it, and send smaller training platoons to frontier territories to fight goblins and orcs until they're seasoned. Hell, send them to fight at the Worldwound, or any other hostile place. Golarion does not lack for excellent forges to shape soldiers in. Make your army Sardaukar.
You'd have to personally kill over a hundred standard goblins to make it to level 5 - and if there are that many around, what happens if they attack you all at once? And if there are orcs around, what percentage of level 1 warriors are going to live long enough to see level 2?
In my opinion, only PCs level up through encounters. NPCs do it by training.
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Let's not use character advancement rules as world building rules.
Except without the narrative advantages PCs get, most of your small training platoons get killed and the rest go up a few levels then can't find enough meaningful opposition to gain more levels.Or, do it the way PCs do it, and send smaller training platoons to frontier territories to fight goblins and orcs until they're seasoned. Hell, send them to fight at the Worldwound, or any other hostile place. Golarion does not lack for excellent forges to shape soldiers in. Make your army Sardaukar.Given how quickly an AP takes you through the first few levels, no self-respecting kingdom should ever have a soldier lower than fighter 5I reached level 5 after killing around 30 enemies. So to get an army to level 5, they just have kill about 30 other armies.
Exactly this. You might get a higher-level army out of it, but it's also likely to be a much smaller army.
If you want a good real-world equivalent, look at ancient Sparta. Yeah, the hellish, high-casualty training meant that individually their soldiers were superior, but it also meant their army and citizen population were small compared to their territory/resources, and it was incredibly difficult for them to replace any losses.
Also, a +3 to ranged attack isn't hard at all. A level 1 warrior with 14 Dex has that, or a level 2 one with 12 Dex. It's the Farshot feat that would make that skill rarer. But, in any case, what's wrong with that? Here's a few scenarios where even a low-level character could blow away anything we on Earth have, never mind combat ability:
I didn't mention the +3 ranged bonus because I have an issue with it, it's because I'm showing how impressive a 1st level character can be, even an NPC. The point is to show that a "trained" soldier doesn't need to have half a dozen levels to represent that they are competent on the battlefield. It's also a part of the reason we run into realism issues when your average soldier from wherever converted into pathfinder has more hit points then large dinosaurs.
Makes you wonder how all the kingdoms of Golarion haven't been overthrown already.
A single lvl 12 mage (at the end of a PFS career) could destroy an army of lvl 1-5s.
I mean, let's say that you have a platoon. Let's assume that it is made up out of 42 lvl 1-2 fighters, 7 lvl 2-3 fighters (the sergeants and staff sergeants) and a lvl 4 first sergeant.
They're in a shield wall. Fighting like normal people fought back then. Assuming Con14 average, the lvl 1s all have 13HP. The lvl 2s have 24HP. The lvl 3s have 33HP. The lvl4 has 42HP.
The single wizard casts fireball. That's going to hit a good chunk of them for 10d6 damage. Enough to kill even the first sergeant in one go. Let's say that the wizard quickened it, so he gets to throw another fireball. Most of the platoon is dead in one round. From up to 80ft away.
I mean...against that an army of lvl 1-5s would just evaporate. And their scale mail isn't going to help at all.
It seems like if there is a war both countries should just take all of their high level characters and have them fight. Whichever side wins that wins the war, because the army itself will be useless against them. :P
Shield Walls only make sense when magic is rare/rarely seen. though Tower Shield means none are hit.
If they exist, even if not common, a smart kingdom prepares.
A couple detect magic Inquisitor (Class or role) to warn of casters, legion of archers/bow/gunmen, etc.
Against Mages you don't cluster (unless have some anti-magic defenses ready).
You can Tanglefoot bag/burn the wizard.