Dealing with Schrodinger's fighter

[Chess Pwn]

So the new recommended build for Fighters is to use Barroom brawler to gain temp access to the AWT feat to have max ranks in any skill when you need it. How are we supposed to handle this in PFS?

The deal is when you take the AWT for skills you reallocate any skill ranks currently in the skill for two skills. So if they temp gain AWT for skills, is the skill reallocation permanent or do the reallocated skills go back to their original skill once the feat is gone?

[supervillan]

The skill reallocation can't be permanent when AWT is temporary.

I think this has to be handled similarly to Paragon Surge. On any given day, once Barroom Brawler is used, the choice made should be fixed for that day. The changes to skills only last for one minute, then reverts.

Why is Advanced Weapon Training a Combat Feat when it has so many non-combat uses via the versatile training option? Surely a case for an erratum.

[Chess Pwn]

it's a combat feat so fighters can pick it up with their bonus combat feats.

[Feral]

I'm curious why this is even a problem? Barroom Brawler is a once per day thing. Is the fighter picking up Profession: Sailor on the fly threatening to break certain scenarios?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

I think most people use Abundant Tactics to get additional uses. Although it's not really clear to me how Abundant Tactics is supposed to work if you have multiple X use per day Combat feats.

[Chess Pwn]

at lv9 you're able to take an AWT that lets you use the feat additional times equal to your weapon training bonus, and the gloves of dueling do count for this. So at lv9 you're able to barroom brawl 5 times a day.

But even once per day, there is the question on how the skills relocating back or not works.

[Ryzoken]

My reading of the process is as follows:
Step 1: gain AWT(Versatile Training X)
Step 2: reallocate skill ranks spent in skills pertaining to AWT(Versatile Training X)
Step 3: time passes, resulting in AWT(Versatile Training X) no longer being possessed.
Step 4: play proceeds.

The reallocation of skill points is clearly not temporary. The possession of AWT is temporary. Losing AWT does not provide an opportunity for you to reallocate skill points. This is relatively clear, based on my reading of the relevant rule entries.

[FLite]

No, when VT ends, all of it's effects should end. Otherwise, you have a fighter who can completely reallocate all of his skill points, every game. (During down time, use VT once a day until all your skill points are where you want them.)

[Ryzoken]

Jared Thaler wrote:

No, when VT ends, all of it's effects should end. Otherwise, you have a fighter who can completely reallocate all of his skill points, every game. (During down time, use VT once a day until all your skill points are where you want them.)

Respectfully, I disagree.

Mechanically, you only get to reallocate points spent in skills applicable to the VT you select. There is no text pertaining to what happens if VT is lost, thus we must assume changes are permanent, since they typically are. This is desirable, as it creates limits on how the trick can be abused.

A fighter is, at most, going to have two weapon groups during standard play. This means that at most, the fighter's skill points are going to cycle between the options listed in Advanced Armor Training Adaptable Training (Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (engineering), Profession (soldier), Ride, or Swim.) and two of the listed weapon groups for Versatile Training. As soon as skill ranks get put in, for example, Knowledge Arcana, they're permanently placed there and can no longer be reallocated due to not being disrupted when AT or VT is selected by way of Barroom Brawler.

As to whether this is problematic or not, is up for debate. But as is, the abilities discussed (Adaptable Training and Versatile Training) reference retraining which is a permanent effect. This is very much preferable to the retraining only being temporary(as you suggest), which would remove all restriction on when skill ranks are shifted. (Need Knowledge Arcana? Grab Adaptable Training to retrain my skill ranks from Intimidate to Know: Arcana, make the knowledge check, 1 minute later, Barroom Brawler wears off, removing AT and my skill ranks jump back to what they were, letting me replicate the trick on any skill)

[WalterGM]

It needs a clarification as to how it actually works, as we obviously have some discord (do the skill points reallocate? do they stay? what happens at the end of the scenario?).

If the clarification makes it something reasonable (e.g.: changes are not permanent), I have no problem with it in PFS.

Brawlers will never beat out a skill monkey class (looking at you investigator) when it comes to skills, and it's nice to give martials something non-combat oriented every now and then. It's also lvl 9+ play, when things get silly all around the table.

Let this be the worst of it.

[Ryzoken]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

If the clarification makes it something reasonable (e.g.: changes are not permanent), I have no problem with it in PFS.

But that isn't what you want. It really isn't.

Case 1: retrained ranks are permanent
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawler to gain Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off, removing Adaptable Training. The ranks are permanently locked into Knowledge Arcana.

Case 2: retrained ranks are temporary
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawler to gain Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off , removing Adaptable Training. The ranks are returned to Intimidate, letting the Fighter later use the exact same trick to shift ranks into Knowledge Religion for a different check. Then, later, again to perform a Survival check. And then again, for a Profession Barrister check.

Case 2 is inherently more unbalanced than Case 1, as there are situations where skill ranks are permanently allocated in Case 1.

With permanent changes to skill ranks (as RAW, btw) the fighter is restricted in what skills he can shift ranks to if he ever wants to shift those skill ranks again. Specifically, he is restricted to the list of skills under Adaptable Training and whichever skills are listed in the Versatile Training that matches his Weapon Training weapon groups.

[Ascalaphus]

I think if you gain VT only temporarily, you shouldn't be moving skill ranks. Moving skill ranks makes sense if you'd permanently have/waste double ranks, but that isn't happening here.

[Keirine, Human Rogue]

Case 3: Retrained ranks are temporary, but locked per day
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawl to get Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs Knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off, ranks shift back to Intimidate. Later on, fighter uses Barroom Brawler again to get Adaptable Training on the same day. Skill ranks are again shifted from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana.

[Brain Blessed]

"Swimming? Bah, it's just climbing, but horizontally! Any fool can do it!"

[Ascalaphus]

Keirine's idea is at least similar to other such abilities are used, like Paragon Surge.

[supervillan]

Ryzoken makes a good argument. And Keirine has developed the point I was driving at upthread.

This could get almost as egregious as Pageant of the Peacock.

A fighter puts max ranks in any of the skill pairs/groups referenced by Advanced Weapon Training (versatile training) (and/or potentially the Advanced Armour Training counterpart). Bluff and Intimidate work for all fighter weapon groups. Fighter then takes Barroom Brawler and Advanced Weapon Training (abundant tactics). Fighter can now reallocate 2 x max skill ranks to any skills he likes, at the cost of a move action, 1+weapon training bonus times per day. Fighter now effectively has all the skills at max ranks when the need arises. Granted, not till level 9.

Level 9 Fighter swing sword so good, Fighter know everything about everything!

[Talonhawke]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Keirine's idea is at least similar to other such abilities are used, like Paragon Surge.

Yep that would be the best way.

[andreww]

supervillan wrote:

A fighter puts max ranks in any of the skill pairs/groups referenced by Advanced Weapon Training (versatile training) (and/or potentially the Advanced Armour Training counterpart). Bluff and Intimidate work for all fighter weapon groups. Fighter then takes Barroom Brawler and Advanced Weapon Training (abundant tactics). Fighter can now reallocate 2 x max skill ranks to any skills he likes, at the cost of a move action, 1+weapon training bonus times per day. Fighter now effectively has all the skills at max ranks when the need arises. Granted, not till level 9.

Even if this does happen I am still not that impressed. He gets the +3 class bonus but is unlikely to also have the stats or gear investment to make them really shine. At most you are likely to end up being moderately OK at some skills a few times per day. That's decent but hardly game breaking.

[Jayson MF Kip]

Is a fighter making skill checks a few times a day (what's the maximum we're looking at, 5 times?) game-breaking? After level 9?

Do we expect fighters taking move actions in combat to re-allocate skill points to make knowledge checks? It's probably strictly non-combat in its uses, and isn't doing anything lower level magic can't duplicate.

[supervillan]

It's max ranks in every skill for (almost certainly) practically every skill check you'll need to make.

Which makes (Level 9) Fighter a better skill monkey than anyone else, in at least that one way. Sure, an investigator will get a higher total. Sure, sometimes you won't be able spend that move action.

But this combo contravenes the unwritten rule that no new option should be so much better than an existing option that it makes the existing option wholly redundant. Want to have the most skills now? You need 9 levels of Fighter. Nothing else comes close.

There's also the conceptual problem that this shares with Pageant of the Peacock. PotP gave you real knowledge, like monsters' weaknesses and powers, because you could dance in a funny way. Barroom Brawler/AWT gives you the same real knowledge, about anything and everything, because you are very good at swinging a weapon around. That's just as jarring as PotP.

The obvious fix, it seems to me now, is to disallow the reallocation of skill points via versatile training and adaptable training. That puts these options on a par with Bards' versatile performance, which I would venture might be what the original intent was.

[Talonhawke]

Or like said above lock the skill choice on the first time used each day Ala Paragon surge.

[WalterGM]

Ryzoken wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

If the clarification makes it something reasonable (e.g.: changes are not permanent), I have no problem with it in PFS.

But that isn't what you want. It really isn't.

Case 1: retrained ranks are permanent
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawler to gain Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off, removing Adaptable Training. The ranks are permanently locked into Knowledge Arcana.

Case 2: retrained ranks are temporary
Fighter has ranks in Intimidate. Uses Barroom Brawler to gain Adaptable Training(Intimidate) shifting ranks from Intimidate to Knowledge Arcana. Performs knowledge check. Barroom Brawler wears off , removing Adaptable Training. The ranks are returned to Intimidate, letting the Fighter later use the exact same trick to shift ranks into Knowledge Religion for a different check. Then, later, again to perform a Survival check. And then again, for a Profession Barrister check.

Case 2 is inherently more unbalanced than Case 1, as there are situations where skill ranks are permanently allocated in Case 1.

With permanent changes to skill ranks (as RAW, btw) the fighter is restricted in what skills he can shift ranks to if he ever wants to shift those skill ranks again. Specifically, he is restricted to the list of skills under Adaptable Training and whichever skills are listed in the Versatile Training that matches his Weapon Training weapon groups.

No, I do. Case 2 is fine with me. In Case 2, the brawler is using up limited rounds of a combat ability (the key brawler ability) in order to make a skill check worse than investigator. Personally, I dont mind that.

I think that none of the changes that result from VA should be permanent. It all reverts-- defying RAW but making more sense within PFS. Which is why we need a clarification.

[WalterGM]

Talonhawke wrote:

On like said above lock the skill choice on the first time used each day Ala Paragon surge.

That seems super reasonable as well. I in fact like that more than my suggestion.

[Serisan]

#StillSeeZeroFightersAtMyTables

In several years of playing PFS, I've seen maybe 3 fighters (i.e. not just a 1-2 level dip). By comparison, I've seen an equal number of Occultists, more Mesmerists, more Investigators, more Bards by scores (haha! puns!)...classes that, by design, do the skill thing or, at the very least, tend to do skill things. Not a single one of those classes is legitimately threatened by the existence of fighters that invest resources into an "off-role."

If this is a thing that people are legitimately having table issues with (my mind boggles at the thought), yes, Keirine's Case 3 is probably the right answer in that it's most consistent with existing precedent. I simply fail to see how a class that is typically built to use its FCB to get to 2 skills/level is creating this sort of issue at tables.

[supervillan]

I've seen a lot of single class fighters in PFS here in the UK. Archers, Two-handed weapon heavies, heavy armour turtles. I have not yet seen the Barroom Brawler/AWT combo on a character. I hope not to see it before there is a clarification.

We all know fighters could do with more skill points. AWT was a good idea on the whole. But the interaction with Barroom Brawler (and similar) produces a result that breaks verisimilitude: my ability to swing a weapon real good means I get (the benefit of) all of the skills at max ranks, including real knowledge.

[Chess Pwn]

And I see the issue is that a lot of people don't take profession(), craft(not poison or alchemy), perform(X if not a bard), appraise, linguistics(to suddenly know any language you need), or knowledge(nobility, engineering, geography) which will come up as a needed checks and suddenly not only can the fighter do them, the fighter does them quite well because of max ranks and class skill bonus.

Having the skills locked in per day is a decent compromise.
I'd prefer this answer goes a bit further and looks at if you can change your AWT if you select that feat multiple time. If I flex into AWT(skills) can I later flex into AWT(cut from air). However they decide is fine, it's just the question is slightly more than skills. Skills are just the most obvious example.

[Chess Pwn]

Serisan wrote:

#StillSeeZeroFightersAtMyTables

In several years of playing PFS, I've seen maybe 3 fighters (i.e. not just a 1-2 level dip). By comparison, I've seen an equal number of Occultists, more Mesmerists, more Investigators, more Bards by scores (haha! puns!)...classes that, by design, do the skill thing or, at the very least, tend to do skill things. Not a single one of those classes is legitimately threatened by the existence of fighters that invest resources into an "off-role."

If this is a thing that people are legitimately having table issues with (my mind boggles at the thought), yes, Keirine's Case 3 is probably the right answer in that it's most consistent with existing precedent. I simply fail to see how a class that is typically built to use its FCB to get to 2 skills/level is creating this sort of issue at tables.

If you look at like any fighter thread this Schrodinger's fighter gets suggested as the fix to make the fighter versatile and flexible. The new fighter guide has it as a recommended build. So it's not that it's causing issues RIGHT NOW!! but this is something that will likely turn up in the upcoming months, so I'd rather have PFS be aware and thinking about it and give us a ruling *sooner than later when people have been having problems.

[Ryzoken]

supervillan wrote:

But the interaction with Barroom Brawler (and similar) produces a result that breaks verisimilitude: my ability to swing a weapon real good means I get (the benefit of) all of the skills at max ranks, including real knowledge.

Unless your shifting of skill ranks is permanent, at which point those skill ranks could be forever locked into a specific skill preventing you from repeating the trick.

To be clear: I believe RAW is that Case 1 is how it is. I further believe a lot of people erroneously believe Case 2 is RAW. I further believe that some of the people who understand that Case 1 is RAW believe Case 2 is preferable, presumably as a fighter buff. I believe Case 2 is detrimental to the game. I further believe Case 1 is reasonable, as would be Case 3 as outlined above. I'm of the opinion that Case 1 should be the accepted standard, as Cases 2 and 3 would require additional errata/clarification text which brings with it it's own problems down the line.

It can be challenging to figure out how the Versatile/Adaptable shuffle functions, but once you have it worked out the limitations are pretty fair in the scope of PFS play. It only really gets nutty around level 10, at which point you're 6-12 games from retirement anyway. Even with the AV Shuffle, fighters still suck...

[swoosh]

Weird how the first thing PFS people ever seem to jump on is shutting down bad classes.

Though a thought: Maybe if anything gloves of dueling need a look? It effectively doubles the efficacy of abundant tactics and is arguably a big reason otherwise fairly tame options like Warrior Spirit have ended up banned.

supervillan wrote:

We all know fighters could do with more skill points. AWT was a good idea on the whole. But the interaction with Barroom Brawler (and similar) produces a result that breaks verisimilitude

That's a personal problem though and kind of beyond the scope of this thread.

[Sin of Asmodeus]

Easiest way to fix this at that level. Lack of hit points. Easiest patch to install and maintain.

[Talonhawke]

Ryzoken wrote:

supervillan wrote:

But the interaction with Barroom Brawler (and similar) produces a result that breaks verisimilitude: my ability to swing a weapon real good means I get (the benefit of) all of the skills at max ranks, including real knowledge.

Unless your shifting of skill ranks is permanent, at which point those skill ranks could be forever locked into a specific skill preventing you from repeating the trick.

To be clear: I believe RAW is that Case 1 is how it is. I further believe a lot of people erroneously believe Case 2 is RAW. I further believe that some of the people who understand that Case 1 is RAW believe Case 2 is preferable, presumably as a fighter buff. I believe Case 2 is detrimental to the game. I further believe Case 1 is reasonable, as would be Case 3 as outlined above. I'm of the opinion that Case 1 should be the accepted standard, as Cases 2 and 3 would require additional errata/clarification text which brings with it it's own problems down the line.

It can be challenging to figure out how the Versatile/Adaptable shuffle functions, but once you have it worked out the limitations are pretty fair in the scope of PFS play. It only really gets nutty around level 10, at which point you're 6-12 games from retirement anyway. Even with the AV Shuffle, fighters still suck...

The skill point retrain is an easy fix, you don't get that options when using VT temporarily. Simply lock that part of the AWT down when its used temporarily and only allow sub BAB for ranks.

[Chess Pwn]

I'm not interested in shutting it down or not per se, more of standardizing it. This seems like a good candidate for clarification, just depending on what PFS leadership want.

The first question can you use barroom for AWT?
Option 1) can't flex into AWT.
Option 2) yes but same choice per day.
Option 3) free flexing.

And if options 2 or 3 how does the skills work?
Option 1) permanent change of skills.
Option 2) revert skills back.
Option 3) revert, but choice is locked each time you access it per day.

[Ryzoken]

Talonhawke wrote:

The skill point retrain is an easy fix,

I don't believe it needs a fix, once one accepts that my presented Case 1 is how the interaction functions.

FWIW: I'm of the opinion that Barroom Brawler should remain open ended as well.

The skill point shuffle is a neat trick for fighters, one of the first actually interesting options for them to address their inadequacies. Once it's made clear exactly how the trick works and what limitations it has (no reverting of shifted skill ranks when AT/VT falls off, restrictions on selecting VT based on weapon groups selected, etc.) that trick is within the bounds of reasonable, at least in terms of PFS play.

[JAMRenaissance]

I don't see how this could be permanent given the RAW wording. To be specific,

Quote:

When using versatile training, the fighter substitutes his total base attack bonus (including his base attack bonus gained through levels in other classes) for his ranks in these skills, but adds the skill's usual ability score modifier and any other bonuses or penalties that would modify those skills. Once the skills have been selected, they cannot be changed and the fighter can immediately retrain all of his skill ranks in the selected skills at no additional cost in money or time.

Emphasis is mine. Clearly, when using Barrom Brawler, you are no longer "using" Versatile Training anymore. Therefore, everything reverts.

There is not a reference to things going away because Versatile Training was not meant to be temporary. It's a permanent adjustment. Barroom Brawler is the thing modifying this, so there would be no specific language for it (without errata) in Versatile Training.

As an aside, if there were ever a thing to point to as to why Paizo nerfs things all to hell, it's the combo of Barroom Brawler -> Advanced Weapon Training -> Gloves of Dueling / Abundant Tactics. These things were CLEARLY not meant to work together - so, because I pick up combat stuff quickly in a Taskmaster like manner I can now understand how a catapault works (Knowledge (Engineering)), and because I have gloves that enhance my weapons I can know things more times a day? Yes, the crunch makes sense, but the fluff interaction of those four things together furrows my brow as a GM.

[Talonhawke]

The problem with it being permanent is two-fold one it allows at least a one time free skill retrain of all the skill ranks in 2 skill with no actual investment but a single use of a feat with various applications. That's a really good use even if just for that and then you can still use BB for anything else after getting to retrain all those skill points instantly. That's where making it permanent runs afoul of things. Much better to simply allow temp uses of the AWT to only give BaB instead of ranks and not allow retraining the points over effectively granting a free skill retrain with no drawback at all.

[David knott 242]

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

The deal is when you take the AWT for skills you reallocate any skill ranks currently in the skill for two skills.

There is a misstatement of the basic ability here that nobody seems to have caught. The original text of this ability says that "the fighter CAN immediately retrain all of his skill ranks in the selected skills at no additional cost in money or time" (emphasis mine). He is not required to do so, and in fact it is probably best for a variety of reasons that he not retrain any skill ranks.

Any sort of retraining via temporarily gaining this ability potentially creates problems. If the retraining is temporary, a character who has already maxed out the selected skill has a way to immediately max out any other skill for the duration of Barroom Brawler's effect. If the retraining is permanent, then the Barroom Brawler feat, which is obviously intended to grant only a temporary benefit to a character, could be used to make a permanent change to the character. The only sane approach is to grant the character a virtual number of ranks equal to his BAB and ignore any possibility of retraining.

[doctor_wu]

Well what if versital training was not permanent but any other time you use it you can not switch to other alternate skills so if you used versital training you could not get every skill new each time. This would be much easier to track in a home game than society though. Because you can only use versatile training when using barroom brawler through this and it says you cannot change it again. Barroom brawler is just what lets you use the feat and when using the feat the skill ranks cannot be changed.

[Ryzoken]

David knott 242 wrote:

If the retraining is permanent, then the Barroom Brawler feat, which is obviously intended to grant only a temporary benefit to a character, could be used to make a permanent change to the character.

And? How is this a problem?

[Talonhawke]

doctor_wu wrote:

Well what if versital training was not permanent but any other time you use it you can not switch to other alternate skills so if you used versital training you could not get every skill new each time. This would be much easier to track in a home game than society though. Because you can only use versatile training when using barroom brawler through this and it says you cannot change it again. Barroom brawler is just what lets you use the feat and when using the feat the skill ranks cannot be changed.

The issues with locking the feat to those choices is it's making the feat now unique in this respect no other feat chosen with BB would have to be tracked as to what you chose the very first time you used it.

[Tallow]

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

So the new recommended build for Fighters is to use Barroom brawler to gain temp access to the AWT feat to have max ranks in any skill when you need it. How are we supposed to handle this in PFS?

The deal is when you take the AWT for skills you reallocate any skill ranks currently in the skill for two skills. So if they temp gain AWT for skills, is the skill reallocation permanent or do the reallocated skills go back to their original skill once the feat is gone?

What's AWT?

In the future, could you at least spell out the first iteration of the abbreviation so that I know what you are referring to?

[Talonhawke]

Advanced Weapon Training

EDIT:The entire sthick is to take Barroom Brawler and use it to take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat, and then pick versatile training as the AWT. Now you have a temp usage of your BaB for 2 skills and can move the ranks in those skills to other skills.

[Tallow]

Talonhawke wrote:

Advanced Weapon Training

EDIT:The entire sthick is to take Barroom Brawler and use it to take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat, and then pick versatile training as the AWT. Now you have a temp usage of your BaB for 2 skills and can move the ranks in those skills to other skills.

Ah, and are wondering just how long this switch lasts?

[Talonhawke]

Yep if you take it normally it's permanent. So as a temp choice the question is now how does it work.

1. The Weapon group (which determines the base skills) can be chosen every time and the free retrain happens every time.

2. The Weapon group and retrain is locked if you ever take the option.

3. The weapon group can be chosen every time picked but no retrain skills happens.

4. Some other method.

Edit: As a corrollary to #1 if this is the case what happens to the skill points reallocated during the time of having VT? Do they stay put or do they go back to where they were.

[Tallow]

well this likely works similarly to temporary ability bonuses and such. The FAQ certainly made temp vs. permanent a lot less separated in scope, but the one major difference that still persists is that Temporary Ability Bonuses do not count toward prerequisites.

My opinion, is that everytime you use Barroom Brawler to do AWT(versatile Training) that you get the temporary change. Then when Barroom Brawler ends, all effects you gained by using it to take AWT end also.

[plaidwandering]

years and years of wailing and gnashing of teeth that fighters are horrible out of combat and 2 skill points/lvl with no int focus is a joke

they get an ability useable at 9th level to have a bit more skills and all of a sudden it's wailing and gnashing of teeth that the fighter can know an extra skill a day - and you know it'll get ruled as set per day like paragon surge

meanwhile the wizard charms the source of information, alters his form to slip by unnoticed, teleports next to the macguffin, turns the guardian to stone, casts a spell to disarm magic traps, and flies home whistling a tune

seriously think about how upset you need to be about a fighter knowing a skill

[BigNorseWolf]

The precedent with paragon surge picking you up a spell known is that when you use the ability again you keep getting the same spell. This would suggest that you've locked your skills in for the day , and they go back to what they were before when the temporary ability ends.

[Chess Pwn]

It's not about the fighter doing it, it's how to handle when they do.

[rknop]

Gah. These kinds of rules interactions are the hobgoblin of Pathfinder.

The Versatile Weapon Training option of AWT is clearly supposed just to be a permanent thing. The "reallocate your skill points" was in there because that's a very common house rule (but *not* a PFS rule) for bards getting Versatile Performance -- but for the Fighter, who're skill point starved in a way bards aren't, it matters more.

This form of AWT was clearly not intended to be used with Martial Flexibility. Myself, I have to admit when I see somebody find this kind of cheesy rules interaction and try to use it, I just get annoyed. I know for some people the purpose of the game is to win by finding the most stupid broken rules interaction you can, but for me, that's not the game. Alas, we're stuck with it, because Pathfinder is a rules-heavy system.

What I'd really like to see is a campaign declaration that using Advanced Weapon Training with Versatile Weapon Training is simply not allowed with Martial Flexibility or Barroom Brawler. It should be kept as a permanent option that fighters can take as just a normal feat, but it should be ruled out for temporary feats like this.

Less draconian would be the following. Already there is text that says that if a feat has a number of uses per day, you have to keep count of those uses even if you swap the feat in and out. (I forget where it is, but it's there.) Versatile Weapon Training lets you retrain your skills once, ever. So, if you use it with Barroom Brawler, the first time you use it, the skill reallocations you choose are the ones that you have to use every time you reactive it thereafter. Uses per day feats aren't allowed to be gamed with Martial Flexibility; things that a feat let you do once should likewise not be allowed to be gamed.

[BigNorseWolf]

rknop:L baring that, the ability to retrain the skillpoints out permanently is just as much an ability to use power attack permanantly depends on a 13 strength. If you loose one, you loose another.

So if its treated as permanent, rather than instantaneous, it works fine. Your skill points swap out and then go back at the end.

[rknop]

Yeah, but I'd go further than that -- next time you use the feat, you have to reallocate your skill points in exactly the same way you did previously.