[quote = Dysartes]
If they didn't want to deal with the implications of casting an [EVIL] spell being evil, they should just have banned the spell (and, by extension, any other [EVIL] spells) to be in line with the no evil characters policy.
I think their choice is less likely to alienate the PFS players, who are by necessity used to going wargame over roleplay/simulation. Nature of the beast.
SV, if your are serious, as a PFS player, you are used to accepting what is allowed/disallowed to allow for standardized play.
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If they didn't want to deal with the implications of casting an [EVIL] spell being evil, they should just have banned the spell (and, by extension, any other [EVIL] spells) to be in line with the no evil characters policy.
OR they can just say that the castings are too small of an effect on your alignment to worry about in the timeframe of a pfs scenario. That way someone gets to be dark and gritty AND imaginary orphans get to "live" through the scenario.
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Wow, Celestial Healing sucks, I never even noticed how different it was from Infernal Healing... though I'd say that 1 round per 2 levels is still minimum 1, that's still a total waste of a spell slot...
As for the topic as a whole, no we can't ditch the nonsense with Infernal Healing, but YOU can when you are the GM. That's really what it boils down to. The spell exists, it's not going away, but any individual GM can do away with it or make it corrupt you faster or whatever.
From looking at the spell, I have to wonder if I should get Arcane Anthology. The spell is a poor replacement for Infernal Healing, and my arcane casters will likely rely on potions or a high Use Magic Device score. Indeed, I have to ask why it is such a poor replacement as I see no reason why the spell's creator could not merely duplicate the healing power of Infernal Healing, even if the material component was a little more costly. (Are there any other low-level spells that allow arcane casters to use healing magics? I seem to recall a few in 3.0 and 3.5.)
In PFS, I have to go with the rules as written for the campaign. So, the spell works as written. I understand how tempting it can be to use evil means for good ends. Also, I know a lot of GMs who could have NPCs who detect evil on a party of adventurers assume the worst about them.
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So I finally got caught up on the thread and the discussion of whether infernal healing's material component has a cost not covered by a spell component pouch
Seeing as its got around to the inevitable point where some people are arguing that a dose of unholy water must be a full flask and thus a spell component pouch cannot work, let me break one of your key assumptions.
Unholy water does not have a price, and thus, no matter how much "1 dose" is, it's covered by a spell component pouch by RAW.
Don't believe me? Go ahead, crack open your CRB right now. Not some online database where they've assumed unholy water has the same price as holy water, the actual printed book.
You'll find that the price for unholy water isn't listed anywhere in the CRB or, to my knowledge, any other book Paizo has ever printed.
So there ya go, debate settled as far as RAW goes. Feel free to houserule if you're not playing PFS.
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From looking at the spell, I have to wonder if I should get Arcane Anthology. The spell is a poor replacement for Infernal Healing, and my arcane casters will likely rely on potions or a high Use Magic Device score. Indeed, I have to ask why it is such a poor replacement as I see no reason why the spell's creator could not merely duplicate the healing power of Infernal Healing, even if the material component was a little more costly. (Are there any other low-level spells that allow arcane casters to use healing magics? I seem to recall a few in 3.0 and 3.5.)
In PFS, I have to go with the rules as written for the campaign. So, the spell works as written. I understand how tempting it can be to use evil means for good ends. Also, I know a lot of GMs who could have NPCs who detect evil on a party of adventurers assume the worst about them.
The greater version of Celestial healing isn't nearly as bad, though it's still far outclassed by an equal level heal spell.
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The spell curse water, which is used to make unholy water, costs 25gp worth of powdered silver, just like the spell bless water used to make holy water.
People playing the Pathfinder game are actually allowed to make relatively simple logical deductions without having a rule for every single little thing.
Of course you're allowed to make simple logical deductions! But don't claim your logical deductions are the RAW. That's what we're arguing here. Not how the spell should be handled through rules we make up because they make sense; thats houserules territory.
And thats fine, its very reasonable to say unholy water costs the same as holy water, but not what the rules say.
By the rules as written, unholy water has no purchase cost or value listed and has its cost covered by a spell component pouch or eschew materials.
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You'll find that the price for unholy water isn't listed anywhere in the CRB or, to my knowledge, any other book Paizo has ever printed.
Going on the weirdest argument for something thread....
Mind you, and this is coming from someone that AGREES with the conclussion that there is no gp cost to the spell.
Temples to good deities sell holy water at cost (making no profit). Holy water is made using the bless water spell.
Curse Water
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 1
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (5 lbs. of powdered silver worth 25 gp)
Range touch
Target flask of water touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
This spell imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with negative energy, turning it into unholy water (see Equipment). Unholy water damages good outsiders the way holy water damages undead and evil outsiders.
So while unholy water might be 25 gp or 50 gp depending on whether evil temples hand it out at cost like good temples do , there is a definite in game price for an entire flask of holy water.
I could have sworn that some source listed the dose for infernal healings holy water as 25 gp, but as there's either an inconsistency in my memory or the sources. The devils blood is undeniably free.
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Going on the weirdest argument for something thread....
Oh please do add it to that thread. I'm quite aware the argument is ridiculous. However, I made it precisely because it is so rediculous.
Those who think the spell should have a gp cost are trying to say that it must have a cost because, by RAW, the only defined dose of unholy water we have is a full flask. Thus, the spell must have a defined gp cost because unholy water has a gp cost.
I then made an argument going purely by the RAW that unholy water has no given cost or value.
Do you see the point I was trying to make now? I was simply using their own logic to disprove the notion.
Apparently I should have made that more clear.
Do you see the point I was trying to make now? I was simply using their own logic to disprove the notion.
It's not quite working. 1 dose= 1 flask is a little arbitrary (unless that line with "worth 25 gp wasn't a figment of my imagination). That we don't know what the cost of unholy water is when we know it has a material component and we have prices for spellcasting services is NVTS nuts. While i disagree with them, their argument isn't THAT bad.
You seem to have more emotionally invested in being right, over someone you have likely never met, about a wargame based on make believe, than might be reasonable.
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Eh, from a common sense standpoint sure, unholy water should probably have a cost of 25 gp or more. But by pure RAW it doesn't as its never directly listed with a price and thus whatever amount you need to cast infernal healing can be considered part of your spell component pouch.
It sounds stupid, but by the letter of the rules its true.
Edit: @Daw: Not emotionally invested at all, just a little bored and thought I'd chime in on the debate. Personally neither I, nor my players, ever really use the spell so it doesn't really matter. Just thought it was an interesting debate and found it funny what the strict RAW says about it.
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It sounds stupid, but by the letter of the rules its true.
No. It is not. Having a listed price in the chart is not the only way to figure out a cost for something. There's no cost for an adamantium dagger, it does tell you how to figure it out though.
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It sounds stupid, but by the letter of the rules its true.
No. It is not. Having a listed price in the chart is not the only way to figure out a cost for something. There's no cost for an adamantium dagger, it does tell you how to figure it out though.
Left out the patronizing link, as it was rather uncalled for.
And the difference is that the CRB gives you a section on Special Materials and lists formulas for you to calculate the cost of the items made from those materials. No such thing is given for other items.
You're comparing apples to oranges.
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(US&UK pints are different)Wait really? Well you learn something new everyday.
You can see through one, but not the other. :P
(US&UK pints are different)Wait really? Well you learn something new everyday.
A U.S. Pint (dry measure) isn't even the same volume as a U.S. Pint (liquid measure).
Or just a +2 weapon, or damage from a creature with DR/silver, as those count as silver weapons too.Only for the purposes of DR, not for any other purpose, such as stopping Regeneration or negating Infernal Healing.
FYI - these are incorrect. It takes a +3 weapon to bypass cold iron and silver DR, and creatures with DR/silver do not bypass the DR of other such creatures.
{It is correct that neither impact regeneration or infernal healing}
Left out the patronizing link, as it was rather uncalled for.
I'm sure it was quite unintentional, but I find it eminently hilarious that you called a link to the-toast "patronizing".
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Infernal healing was a mistake. It breaks a ton of the rules UM sets out on making spells and PFS should have banned it outright.
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Holy s%*!, you and I agree on something!
I'm a pretty big proponent of separation of themes...especially where spellcasting is concerned as its already the most versatile and powerful class ability.
Arcane casters shouldn't get healing, and if they do the healing they get shouldn't be more efficient or powerful than divine healing of an equal level.
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Holy s%*!, you and I agree on something!I'm a pretty big proponent of separation of themes...especially where spellcasting is concerned as its already the most versatile and powerful class ability.
Arcane casters shouldn't get healing, and if they do the healing they get shouldn't be more efficient or powerful than divine healing of an equal level.
Baba Yaga says hi.
Well, witches are divinish arcane casters so they and psychic casters whose lists are fairly arcane can have healing, but wizards and sorcerers probably shouldn't, at least not "better than what clerics get for out-of-combat healing".
Infernal Healing probably does fit certain bloodragers pretty well though. It's just that the Infernal Bloodline is one of the less appealing ones.
It really isn't better than what divine casters get in any sense. First, divine caster classes get infernal healing too, so arcane casters can, at best, match them via that spell.
For another thing, path of glory blows infernal healing out of the water under many circumstances. Though caster level actually matters for it, so getting it in staff form (or actually spending spell slots for it) is recommended.
First, the fact that clerics get it too isn't much better it still means they broke the UM balance guide with the spell, and beyond that, only neutral or evil clerics get it. Not that i have an issue with alignment restrictions on things but there it is.
Second, path of glory is level 2, so it should be a superior option, and it takes it even longer to be a superior option if you extend infernal healing
As for Baba Yaga, story based plot fulcrums don't count, exceptions tend to become the rule when players can access them.
The rules for researching spells are pretty clear, and she did just that. The only "story based plot" is how long she's lived.
I had all the things that emphasize how much of a plot device she is typed up but for the sake of those who might not want spoilers i deleted it. Basically despite having a statblock, she's got a list of nonstandard abilities that render her functionally unkillable unless the gm wants to make it the focus of the campaign entirely.
She's a plot fulcrum same as any demon lord, not a template for what pc's can achieve by using published supplements.
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Path of glory at CL 3 versus extended infernal healing
Path of glory at CL 3 will give four squares for three turns, four squares for two turns, and four squares for one turn. A grand total of 24 hit points healed, provided there are at least 12 people, though the healing cannot be concentrated. This is without any efforts to make people end their movement in the same squares on the same turn, which I am aware of a few ways to achieve.
Extended infernal healing will heal up to 20 hit points from a single target (taking a full two minutes to achieve). It cannot be shared in any way, and does not work against damage from silver or good-aligned weapons, nor good-aligned spells.
Conclusion: Even at CL 3 Path of Glory does better than Extended Infernal Healing in total hit points it can heal and it's always better at types of damage it can heal. Now, what's actually better in a situation can easily switch between the two, but it is very much not firmly in favour of Infernal Healing. Path of Glory becomes superior to Infernal Healing under a greater percentage of situations as caster level increases.
It also doesn't require people to keep track of how much damage is caused by silver or good-aligned attacks, so that simplifies bookkeeping a fair bit.
And yes, I suppose good-aligned clerics are forbidden from using infernal healing. I'm far more used to considering oracles since I prefer spontaneous casters by a very large margin.
It's not because you don't actually do that. You don't carry tons of them just in case, anymore than Batman always carries all the gadgets he's ever used. He just always has the one he needs on him.
It only looks different with Batman because his stories are written out, so the author can forshadow mention tonight's gadget by mentioning it before it saves the day.
You're not carrying several parts of each humanoid in existence. You're carrying the one (or two) you wind up using during the adventure. That's all.
Practically speaking it's similar to your 1), but you think about it very differently. And it's still different than Eschew Materials, because you actually need the pouch. It can be taken or sundered or whatever. Not a huge limitation, but a real one.
Ok then. I only carry 2 or 3 pieces of humanoids. Also another 2 or 3 pieces of non humanoids, for my polymorph spell. Plus a few pieces of bat guano because I also cast fireball. And 2 or 3 vials of acid for acid pit. Oh, and a shovel, for the acid pit. Some roots for haste, a bit of sand for color spray, some extra cobwebs for Web, and a vial of molasess for slow. Of course, no wizard goes to adventure without mage armor, so 2 or 3 pieces of cured leather are necesary too, and a metal bar for Hold Monster and a couple of crystals for Cone of Cold. I dont have enough level to cast lvl 6 spells yet, but as it is probable that I level up during this session, I will preemptively carry a few lodestones because I want to take Desintegrate when I do, and if I dont carry them now, they will have to poof into my pouch, which would need us to whistle and turn a blind eye to the whole material component stuff to avoid suspension of disbelief.
And I am going to carry all of that, in my ever expanding self replenishing dimensional pocket spell pouch made of handwavium weave.
Path of glory at CL 3 versus extended infernal healing
Path of glory at CL 3 will give four squares for three turns, four squares for two turns, and four squares for one turn. A grand total of 24 hit points healed, provided there are at least 12 people, though the healing cannot be concentrated. This is without any efforts to make people end their movement in the same squares on the same turn, which I am aware of a few ways to achieve.Extended infernal healing will heal up to 20 hit points from a single target (taking a full two minutes to achieve). It cannot be shared in any way, and does not work against damage from silver or good-aligned weapons, nor good-aligned spells.
It also requires you to be stationary or nearly so. There are going to be many situations that don't allow that. I'll grant you, for raw throughput you get more, but thats more spread out amongst a bunch of people. In a 4 man party it only takes 1 person going uninjured to make path of glory have less throughput than infernal healing.
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Why is it required that the caster can Alter Self into every possible humanoid, even ones the caster doesn't know about?
It is not. But the spell pouch still have pieces of all of them, in case he needs. Rules say so. The spell pouch you got at lvl 1 last the entire campaign
The big question is how important flavor is versus power.
I dont think so. The important thing here is how people selectively decide to poke some things, while they are blind to some others, based on personal preference.
There are hundreds of posts arguing crossbows, for example. How they need to be slower to load than a bow, and thus require a feat. Because realism is important in that regard. However, in the case of a wizard taking a vial of acid from his pouch and drawing a shovel as a free action, nobody bats an eye. Retrieving a alchemist flask is a move action, at best. But if you are an alechemist, you can actually retrieve your flask, a catalyst, mix them both, and throw the flask, in a single action. More than once per turn, in fact, if you have rapid shot or more than BAB 6.
So here we are. Arguing that Devil blood should have a cost, because it is a rare component, and thus should be escarce and valuable.. But not arguing that, say, Green Annis Hag hair, which is a component for Monstrous Physique, should have a cost. Because we selectively decide to be blind to Monstruous Physique material component, and not for Infernal Healing.
Well, witches are divinish arcane casters so they and psychic casters whose lists are fairly arcane can have healing, but wizards and sorcerers probably shouldn't, at least not "better than what clerics get for out-of-combat healing".
I suppose you mean at lower levels.
Because Summon Monster IX gives you your own lvl 14 cleric to heal you.
It also requires you to be stationary or nearly so. There are going to be many situations that don't allow that. I'll grant you, for raw throughput you get more, but thats more spread out amongst a bunch of people. In a 4 man party it only takes 1 person going uninjured to make path of glory have less throughput than infernal healing.
Indeed. I never claimed that path of glory was ever always superior to infernal healing, extended or otherwise; there will basically always be situations where one or the other is better. However, having access to both is always going to be superior to having access to only one, and no arcane spellcasting class that I am aware of can have both. As such, divine casters are, in general, still better at healing damage than arcane casters. And that's not even getting into heal, which blow everything else completely out of the water. Though I'm obviously biased in favour of path of glory; it's such a cool spell! Especially when healing groups of people. :D
To me, archons having a stockpile of profane weapons that they just bust out when they need to kill some azatas feels wrong to me, even if it is sensible from mechanical point of view.
They could go with Axiomatic
To me, archons having a stockpile of profane weapons that they just bust out when they need to kill some azatas feels wrong to me, even if it is sensible from mechanical point of view.They could go with Axiomatic
Very true, yet mechanically it would be inferior choice because it does not bypass DR.
Which is one more annoyance, because sometimes DR feels random. It is always DR/good until whoops some chaotic evil outsider things are DR/law.
To me, archons having a stockpile of profane weapons that they just bust out when they need to kill some azatas feels wrong to me, even if it is sensible from mechanical point of view.They could go with AxiomaticVery true, yet mechanically it would be inferior choice because it does not bypass DR.
Which is one more annoyance, because sometimes DR feels random. It is always DR/good until whoops some chaotic evil outsider things are DR/law.
Celestial armies should do just fine with +5 weapons rather than eat the negative level from holding an Unholy weapon.
To me, archons having a stockpile of profane weapons that they just bust out when they need to kill some azatas feels wrong to me, even if it is sensible from mechanical point of view.They could go with AxiomaticVery true, yet mechanically it would be inferior choice because it does not bypass DR.
Which is one more annoyance, because sometimes DR feels random. It is always DR/good until whoops some chaotic evil outsider things are DR/law.
This is largely why I houserule that if they have alignment-based DR anything that opposes their alignment subtypes bypasses that DR. So archon DR is bypassed by either chaotic or evil weapons, daemons are only bypassed by good weapons, etc. Allow for the opposition of chaos and law to be just as important, and useful, as that between good and evil.
Indeed. I never claimed that path of glory was ever always superior to infernal healing, extended or otherwise; there will basically always be situations where one or the other is better.
Infernal healing blows path of glory out of the water in terms of amount healed per gold piece spent for an adventuring party, which is what you're looking for in a wand. If you're healing an army i'm sure path of glory is great, but for a party of 3-6 its very meh.
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Yeah, because "money is finite" and "we can't just rest whenever we want" (or the GM allowing this breaks the game quickly) what you really want for healing is something that doesn't cost spell slots or other character metacurrency like a wand. Since the wand cost formula multiplies everything by the level the spell is cast at, you pretty much want 1st level wands to.
This is not to say that higher level healing spells are not useful, but they're not going to be used for your bread and butter healing situations where nobody is attacking you and you'd like to fill up on HP.
But a 750 GP wand of infernal healing heals 6 HP per charge, but a 750 GP wand of CLW heals 2-9. On average, infernal healing comes out ahead, which is kind of absurd since "Available to Wizards/Sorcerers" should be the draw of the spell not "is more efficient than CLW on a wand".