Hey there!
I've been trying to flesh out a character of mine build wise, and it's proving outrageously difficult to do! The simple but very edgy role-play I've got for him now is a Half-Githzerai (Using Half-Elf as a template) he's an outcast, has some creepy fey stuff in his story, but that's about it.
I want him to be a gish, a decent gish at that, I like mechanically sound characters. I've so far found that the general consensus is that Eldritch Knight is utterly garbage and everyone should just play a Magus. Although I've also seen some Sorcerer/EK stuff that looked pretty interesting.
And well here's what I need advice on: What sort of class/class combo would I need to pull off a decent melee fighter with 9th circle spells.
If you have any classes that do magic-melee well, have cool fluff and don't have 9th circle I'd still love to look at them, I just want to avoid mainly going Magus.
All third party stuff is allowed if first approved by the DM, and I rolled stats that can literally work with anything.
With regards, Krugdork!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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It would really help if you specify (1) what level you're playing at, and (2) why you want to avoid the Magus.
The EK is not so much "utterly garbage" but neither is it a gish: it is simply a wizard with a sword in his hand. Because, if you're building a character specifically so it can use top-level spells, he's going to cast those spells and the sword is mostly irrelevant. What a gish needs is the ability to cast and attack in the same turn.
It would really help if you specify (1) what level you're playing at, and (2) why you want to avoid the Magus.
The EK is not so much "utterly garbage" but neither is it a gish: it is simply a wizard with a sword in his hand. Because, if you're building a character specifically so it can use top-level spells, he's going to cast those spells and the sword is mostly irrelevant. What a gish needs is the ability to cast and attack in the same turn.
Ah, I apologize I should have specified that in advance!
1)We are currently around level 6, about to hit 7. The campaign will likely last until level 20, but that's still a ways off!
2)And I'd like to avoid Magus since we already have one in the group!
You have a fair point though, full caster won't care about the attack anyway, I might have to switch the topic toward interesting melee classes with light spellcasting supplement.
Post with links to several builds in it. These are intended to work with 15 or 20 point buy, so if you rolled stats that can work with anything, any of these should work.
Edit: Since I got Ninja'd with the information that the reason you are avoiding Magus is that the group already has one, here is a post with ways to be a 9/9 caster and a Bard at the same time (doesn't Gish, but let the Magus do that).
If you're not set on doing arcane then a nature fang druid is a great divine gish archetype. You trade off wildshape for lots of slayer talents for fighting proficiency. You also get studied target to make up for 3/4 BAB and 1d6 SA, if you get the crocodile domain then you get some more scaling SA.
If you use your slayer talents to snag ranger fighting style then you can boost your preferred fighting style and can even go for a STR TWF build if you want.
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Eldritch Knight is actually pretty good. You get 9th level spells and 3/4 BAB, along with good HP. Check out Guide to Guides for more, but it helps to think of Eldritch Knight as a caster that can fight, rather than a fighter that can cast.
They're incredibly versatile and powerful, and with traits and feats can easily have high DC spells. It's a way to turn powerful wizards into nonsquishy gods.
If you're not set on doing arcane then a nature fang druid is a great divine fish archetype. You trade off wildshape for lots of slayer talents for fighting proficiency. You also get studied target to make up for 3/4 BAB and 1d6 SA, if you get the crocodile domain then you get some more scaling SA.
If you use your slayer talents to snag ranger fighting style then you can boost your preferred fighting style and can even go for a STR TWF build if you want.
I just have to quote this quickly and give you mad props!
Another friend of mine has been wanting to do a Martial druid for some time, he settled on base druid but this is exactly what he was talking about when we discussed characters, will pass this along!
EK is not trash just volatile. Early entry tricks help a lot though. My personal favorite build link. Sohei monk + emphyreal sorcerer is also nice.
I just have to quote this quickly and give you mad props!
Another friend of mine has been wanting to do a Martial druid for some time, he settled on base druid but this is exactly what he was talking about when we discussed characters, will pass this along!
The best part is since you're not going for a blaster build you don't need to steroid up your WIS for the higher DC and just need enough to cast at each level so ~12-14 base or so and then just use WIS headbands to get the higher stat for late game.
I honestly think the most basic EK is often the best solution. Fighter 1/Transmuter 5/EK 10/Transmuter 4. Caster level 20 (with magical knack, of course), BAB 15. Alternatively go Transmuter 3/Fighter 1 at the end for caster level 19 and BAB 16.
The important thing to ask yourself is not how to build him, but how you want to play him. There's two basic ways. One is combat-centric with high Strength or Dex (depending on combat style), using spells for utility, to buff yourself and your weapon - use protective magic and hit things.
The other is basically a high-int wizard with decent strength and some combat abilites thrown in "just in case something comes too close".
Peronally, I prefer the first approach. I have a spare character for our current campaign, who's a falchion-wielding EK. Pretty much all of his feats are combat-focused. With greater magic weapon and heroism, his fighting abilites are pretty decent and he's very hard to hit, thanks to his mithral breastplate, the shield spell and stuff like mirror image or displacement. He'd also cast mage armor every day to get some AC against incorporeal attacks. The big plus side if you go into high levels: This is proabably one of the better character to use Form of the Dragon :D
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1)We are currently around level 6, about to hit 7. The campaign will likely last until level 20, but that's still a ways off!
At level 6, the obvious choice is Warpriest or Bloodrager. As the advantage of the EK is 7th-9th level spells, it's not really something to consider until you're around level fifteen.
1)We are currently around level 6, about to hit 7. The campaign will likely last until level 20, but that's still a ways off!At level 6, the obvious choice is Warpriest or Bloodrager. As the advantage of the EK is 7th-9th level spells, it's not really something to consider until you're around level fifteen.
15 sounds a bit late. Starting around level 10 the EK will have higher level spells than any 4- or 6-level caster. Bloodrager is not really a Gish unless you consider a paladin or ranger a Gish, too. Also, he said he wanted level 9 spellcasting.
A warpriest can cast a little magic while fighting via fervor, or an inquisitor can activate their judgements, bane, the odd litany spell as swift actions. The inquisitor generally gets better fluff but the warpriest is better at fighting.
Skalds, bards & hunters are OK at fighting but they look their best when there are others they can work with. Practically everyone can work with a bard but skalds need friends who are willing to rage and a hunter wants people to use teamwork feats.
An alchemist or investigator does the magic/melee combination well (mainly via the mutagen which can be taken well in advance) and the fluff for an alchemist is fun, that for an investigator can be made to fit almost any concept.
Oracles can be better at melee than clerics but tend not to be quite as good as the 6-level casters when attacked suddenly. If you often have time to buff then they probably will match the 6-level guys.
Starting around level 10 the EK will have higher level spells than any 4- or 6-level caster
At level 10 an EK casts as, at best, an 8th level wizard albeit with caster level 10 if traits are available. That's 4th level spells which any 6-level caster has at level 10 too. It's at level 11 that an EK could possibly surpass a 6-level caster, or at level 15 if you go paladin 2/sorcerer 5-6/EK 10 which was mentioned above.
Also, he said he wanted level 9 spellcasting.
If you have any classes that do magic-melee well, have cool fluff and don't have 9th circle I'd still love to look at them, I just want to avoid mainly going Magus.
Starting around level 10 the EK will have higher level spells than any 4- or 6-level casterAt level 10 an EK casts as, at best, an 8th level wizard albeit with caster level 10 if traits are available. That's 4th level spells which any 6-level caster has at level 10 too. It's at level 11 that an EK could possibly surpass a 6-level caster.
Well, I said "Around level 10" ;) Technically, the EK will have 4th level spells one level earlier and at level 10 he'll have about more 4th level spells (including the school slot) than the 6-level caster. That's better casting in my book.
If you have any classes that do magic-melee well, have cool fluff and don't have 9th circle I'd still love to look at them, I just want to avoid mainly going Magus.
I missed that part. Thanks for pointing it out.
If level 9 spells aren't required, there's always the Pal2/Sorc3/DD4/EK10/Sorc1 build. Heavy armor and shield, using still spell to cast, focused on buffs. Great AC and saves and pretty decent damage for someone using a one-handed weapon.
Another good divine caster/melee hybrid is a Cleric/Holy Vindicator, using buff spells and combat-focused domains like tactics and heroism to improve his fighting.
Alright, thanks for the large amount of quick replies everyone,I honestly appreciate all of these wonderful ideas, and I'm saving a few for some other backup characters! I've narrowed what I want to do down.
For now the simple EK build Blave suggested seems like the best course of action for what I have in mind,I've got a guide up to help me with feats and such but if you highly recommend any or have a spread already made I would greatly appreciate it!
If anyone has any other suggestions I'm still more than open to them, but the focus is definitely Martial > Caster. And if I really feel like it I can retrain at level 18-20 when my character gets grizzled and old into a full grouchy wizard!
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15 sounds a bit late. Starting around level 10 the EK will have higher level spells than any 4- or 6-level caster.
That's not right. At level 10 both of them will have 4th level spells.
Bloodrager is not really a Gish
Bloodrager can cast and attack in the same round, paladin and ranger cannot. That makes the bloodrager a gish.
If anyone has any other suggestions I'm still more than open to them, but the focus is definitely Martial > Caster.
Just be aware that the EK is pretty much the opposite of martial>caster.
As I said, I got the character ready to go at level 12 because he's a potential spare character for our campaign. So here's a quick rundown. As I said, it's a very basic build which in fact uses almost exclusively core stuff, mostly because my group only plays with core+APG. Also note that I get the Additional Traits feat at level 1 because my GM doesn't like to hand out free traits so I have to buy them. If you get Magical Knack for free, take another feat. I'd probably pick Falcata proficiency just because I think it's a cool (and effective!) weapon.
Human Fighter 1/Transmuter 5/EK 6
Str 21 (16 base + 2 race + 3 level ups)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8
Put your +2 Ability Bonus from Transmuter into Str until you get a belt. After that, I'd go for Con, but more Dex is also nice to have.
Feats
1- Additional Traits (Magical Knack, Reactionary), Power Attack, [Weaopon Focus}; 3- Arcane Strike; 5- Arcane Armor Training; 6- [Craft Wondrous or Extend Spell]; 7- Furious Focus, [Arcane Armor Mastery]; 9- Weapon Specialisation; 11- Improved Critical, one feat of choice; 13- Greater Weapon Focus; 15- Critical Focus; 16- Staggering Critical*
*You need to take one more Wizard level before level 16 to align the last Ek bonus feat with the required BAB +13. Otherwise, Staggering will have to wait till level 17.
Equipment: Mithral Breastplate. Ideal would be celestial Full Plate if you can get your hands on that. Masterwork Weapon, probably some special material. Enhant it if you have the gold, otherwise rely on greater magic weapon. Consider getting a ring as Arcane Bond. You can enchant it starting level 7 and you are not stuck with a non-progessing familiar.
Spells are mostly buffs: Heroism, Shield, Greater Magic Weapon. Early on maybe even Keen Edge. Have Mage Armor up at all times against incorporeal attacks or in case of shapeshifting. Keep a few non-save attack spells ready for occation ranged combat (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray and so on).
If your interested, I could post the complete stat block from Herolabs in like 6-7 hours when I'm at home.
I would appreciate that very much if it posed no bother to you Blave.
Also the stats I rolled [if it makes any difference] are 17,16,16,15,12,12 [Insane, I know. Going to die the moment I get in game, I know it]
And also regarding what you said Kurald, yeah I know it's caster, I was just speaking within the two prospects Blave proposed where he had one more focused on martial, please excuse my constant forgetfulness to elaborate, I rarely do posts.
No bother at all. It's just copy and paste. I can manage that. ;) But as I said, you'll have to be patient because I can't access my PC for the next ~6 hours.
And yeah, those stats are insane. I'd porobably go with Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 12 and put first two level up points into Str and Int. The high dex actually works pretty well with the mithral breastplate. I'm a bit jealous :D
Bit later than expected, but here's the statblock. Level 12, 82k Gold.
Male human (Taldan) eldritch knight 6/fighter 1/wizard 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+3 deflection, +1 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 101 (12 HD; 5d6+7d10+41)
Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +9
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee mwk falchion +19/+14 (2d4+14/15-20)
Special Attacks battleshaping
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 12th; concentration +17)
5th—beast shape III, overland flight, teleport, wall of force
4th—dimension door (2), haste, greater invisibility, wall of fire
3rd—dispel magic, displacement, heroism, greater magic weapon, twilight knife[APG]
2nd—darkvision, mirror image (2), resist energy, scorching ray, shield
1st—feather fall, mage armor, magic missile (2), protection from evil, shield (2)
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, prestidigitation
Opposition Schools Divination, Necromancy
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Statistics
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Str 27, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +17; CMD 31
Feats Additional Traits, Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Strike, Craft Wondrous Item, Furious Focus[APG], Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Traits magical knack, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +13 (+17 to jump), Climb +12, Fly +16, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +9, Knowledge (history) +11, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Perception +12, Spellcraft +20, Swim +12, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Thassilonian
SQ arcane bond (ring of protection +3), physical enhancement (+2)
Combat Gear lesser extend metamagic rod; Other Gear +4 mithral breastplate, mwk falchion, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of giant strength +6, boots of striding and springing, cloak of resistance +3, headband of vast intelligence +6, ring of protection +3, 3,675 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Armor Mastery Swift action: -20% arcane spell failure due to armor.
Arcane Bond (Ring of protection +3) (1/day) (Sp) Use object to cast any spell in your spellbook. Without it, Concentration required to cast spells (DC20 + spell level).
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Battleshaping +1 (8/day) (Su) As a swift action, gain bite, claw, or gore attack for 1 rd with enhancement bonus based on level.
Divination You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Divination school.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Physical Enhancement +2 (Constitution) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shapechange Associated School: Transmutation
And here once more with buffs: Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Heroism, Shield, Power Attack, Arcane Strike.
Male human (Taldan) eldritch knight 6/fighter 1/wizard 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 30, touch 14, flat-footed 29 (+10 armor, +3 deflection, +1 Dex, +2 natural, +4 shield)
hp 101 (12 HD; 5d6+7d10+41)
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +11
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +3 falchion +23/+15 (2d4+29/15-20)
Special Attacks battleshaping
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 12th; concentration +17)
5th—beast shape III, overland flight, teleport, wall of force
4th—dimension door (2), haste, greater invisibility, wall of fire
3rd—dispel magic, displacement, heroism, greater magic weapon, twilight knife[APG]
2nd—darkvision, mirror image (2), resist energy, scorching ray, shield
1st—feather fall, mage armor, magic missile (2), protection from evil, shield (2)
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, prestidigitation
Opposition Schools Divination, Necromancy
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Statistics
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Str 27, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +16; CMD 31
Feats Additional Traits, Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Strike, Craft Wondrous Item, Furious Focus[APG], Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Traits magical knack, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+18 to jump), Appraise +7, Bluff +1, Climb +13, Diplomacy +1, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +2, Fly +17, Heal +2, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (engineering) +11, Knowledge (geography) +11, Knowledge (history) +13, Knowledge (local) +13, Knowledge (nature) +11, Knowledge (nobility) +11, Knowledge (planes) +16, Knowledge (religion) +16, Perception +14, Ride +2, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +22, Stealth +2, Survival +2, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Thassilonian
SQ arcane bond (ring of protection +3), physical enhancement (+2)
Combat Gear lesser extend metamagic rod; Other Gear +4 mithral breastplate, +3 falchion, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of giant strength +6, boots of striding and springing, cloak of resistance +3, headband of vast intelligence +6, ring of protection +3, 3,675 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Armor Mastery Swift action: -20% arcane spell failure due to armor.
Arcane Bond (Ring of protection +3) (1/day) (Sp) Use object to cast any spell in your spellbook. Without it, Concentration required to cast spells (DC20 + spell level).
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Battleshaping +1 (8/day) (Su) As a swift action, gain bite, claw, or gore attack for 1 rd with enhancement bonus based on level.
Divination You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Divination school.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Physical Enhancement +2 (Constitution) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shapechange Associated School: Transmutation
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If you arent deadest on Arcane, try an Oracle. The curses add fun roleplay, they get 9th level divine spells, and can do solid Melee. Battle and Metal are pretty much made for it - you can get full martial weapon and armor proficiencies, good Melee oriented revelations, etc.
If you want Arcane in a different flavor than Magus, I had a lot of fun with an arcane duelist Bard.
Occultist also seems like a good caster/Melee hybrid, but I've never played it.
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Quite a few of the classes from Occult Mysteries are natural gishes with some cool hooks and decent to amazing spellcasting.
The Occultist can be a great gish choice since you can split up some of your buffing amongst your implements and focus your spells on instantaneous effects and combat control, or you can flip it the other way. Basically you have a great class with a ton of tools, 3/4 BAB, 6+Int skills, and 6 level spellcasting off a somewhat customizable list.
The Mesmerist is another strong gish from Occult Adventures, though its performance does have more conditional modifiers than the Occultist's. You're going to be more focused in enchantment/illusion effects, but you can really build up the magical swashbuckler kind of gish, especially with an archetype like Vexing Daredevil.
Not an Occult Mysteries class, but the Oracle from the APG is a very natural divine gish, especially with the right Mystery selected. It's been a bit, but I think Battle is still a decent Mystery if you're really trying to build up the martial combatant side of the gish, and Oracle has the distinct advantage of being a a full 9 level spellcaster who doesn't need to sacrifice spellcasting to have a decent combat chassis.
The Vigilante class from Ultimate Intrigue, arguably one of the best classes Paizo has ever designed, has several gish archetypes included with it, including the Cabalist, Magical Child, Warlock, and Zealot. Cabalist is probably the most natural melee and magic mixer of the bunch, gaining the ability to deal bleeding wounds with his attacks and then essentially "feed" on them to empower his magic. It's basically an assassin with blood magic, and it does a pretty good job at what it does.
As others have already covered, Eldritch Knight isn't really bad, but many of the more modern Pathfinder classes have their spellcasting, or at least magical abilities building on/off their spellcasting, integrated into their class features making them more complete. An Eldritch Knight can fight with a sword, or cast spells. It doesn't really do both together well, or even at all for quite a few levels. Classes like the Magus get to blend sword and spell right from level one without sacrificing (and in fact often gaining) action economy.
{. . .}
Bloodrager can cast and attack in the same round, paladin and ranger cannot. That makes the bloodrager a gish.
{. . .}
Some Paladin spells (at least many of the Litany series) are Swift Action out of the box, which means that you can cast them and attack (potentially even full attack) in the same round without needing a Metamagic Rod, so Paladin can do a bit of Gishing. Can't remember off the top of my head whether any Ranger spells are like that.
Now, if you don't normally initiate attacks, but instead place yourself to make Attacks of Opportunity (and have the Dexterity and Combat Reflexes and preferably Reach to back it up), you can do quite a bit of attacking in the same round that you cast. I understand that this technique has been fairly popular among Clerics for quite a while . . . Should work fine for Eldritch Knights as long as you can get past having effectively approximately 5/8 BAB for the first several levels (Elven Branched Spear is good for this).
White Haired Witch would be mostly useless on a druid since you lose the white hair attack in wild shape.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
As far as I can tell, White Hair only depends upon your having hair, not on having Humanoid hair. If both your original and Wildshaped form have hair, it seems that your White Hair would work just fine when Wildshaped.
you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities
The white-haired witch is an archetype of the witch class.
White Hair (Su)
At 1st level...
Looks to me like you lose it.
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I don't think White Hair is an ability that depends upon having hair to begin with.
That depends.
By RAW, the ability requires you to have hair. In PFS specifically, the ability works differently and causes you to grow hair if you don't have it. So check with your GM if he agrees with that.
Another way to do an arcane caster with melee ability is dragon disciple, or dragon disciple with one fighter level and EK.
If you want level 9 spells you can take-
1 level fighter
10 levels EK
4 levels dragon disciple, and finally
5 levels sorcerer.
That will give you the spells of a level 18 sorcerer, therefore level 9 spells. The 4 levels of dragon disciple gives you +4 str, +2 natural armour and better HPs over an EK without.
you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilitiesLooks to me like you lose it.The white-haired witch is an archetype of the witch class.
White Hair (Su)
At 1st level...
While White Hair of a White-Haired Witch is a Supernatural ability, it doesn't depend upon your original form, apart from arguably depending upon your original form having hair, so polymorph effects that don't get rid of your hair shouldn't get rid of it.
If you're looking for more Casting than Fighting, Blade Adept Arcanist.
If you're looking for more Fighting than Casting, Arcane Bloodrager with VMC Magus is actually decent.
If you're looking for a balance between both, Magus works fine. Archetypes can match your playstyle. Eldritch Archer for "Arcane Archer." Myrmidarch for switch-hitter. Vanilla/Kensai/Black Blade for melee.
Most importantly, choose the option you'll have the most fun with
I'm not sure where or why the whole hair, feather, hairless race angle came into play but the 2nd half of what I quoted is what shuts down using White Hair while Wild Shaped ...
as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.White Hair is a natural attack you have in your original form. It clearly says you lose natural attacks possessed by your original form. It doesn't matter if your new form has hair or feathers or quills, the White Hair natural attack doesn't carry over.
Another way to look at it is if you have a tail attack in your natural form and you polymorph into a form that has a tail you do not automatically get a tail attack unless the form you change into has one as well.
But White Hair of a White Haired Witch is not dependent upon your original form -- it is a natural attack awarded by your class. If you were an Awakened Rhino that took levels of White-Haired Witch, your White Hair would still work. Now, if you had instead taken levels in some Awakened Rhino Witch archetype that did something with your existing horn/gore attack (NOT granting you a gore attack that you didn't have naturally), you would be in trouble with respect to using that class feature, similar to the example of the tail attack that you gave.
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet.
It's entirely possible to read this as an ability that allows you to manipulate your body to perform this effect whenever you decide to. It by no means requires you to believe that this causes a permanent change in your existing body when you take the class and gain the ability.
It's a GM call.
Even so, White-Haired Witch gives you the natural attack. It is not dependent upon your form as long as your form has hair for it to use, and thus not at all dependent upon your original form (your original form doesn't award the natural attack). Looks clear to me.
Even so, White-Haired Witch gives you the natural attack.
Polymorph rules say you lose your natural attacks. There we have it folks.
A Witch-Gish is probably going to be a lot better off with Strength Patron going into Eldritch Knight anyhow. Divine Favor on an EK can be pretty powerful.
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Even so, White-Haired Witch gives you the natural attack.Polymorph rules say you lose your natural attacks. There we have it folks.
The rules quoted above say you lose natural attacks dependent upon your original form. White Hair natural attack doesn't depend upon your original form -- your original form didn't have it to start with, and your class awarded it to you.
For easy reference, here it is again:
{. . .}
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
{. . .}
White Hair appears to depend upon your having a form that has hair, since the wording of White Hair says that you gain the ability to use your hair as a weapon, and doesn't say that you sprout hair if you don't have any, and the above says that you lose class features that depend upon form, which leads to the inference that your polymorphed form needs to have hair for White Hair to work with. But it is not an attack that you would have had without the White Haired Witch 1st level class feature, so it does not fall under "natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form" in the text above.
If, instead of being a White-Haired Witch, you were a Medusa, you would lose the snake/hair bite attacks that your form awards you, when under a polymorph spell.
I don't even think that this needs an FAQ.
As written, you lose any "class features" that depend on form, which would apply; but, it also says that "your new form might restore" an ability.
I think the most straightforward reading would be that you lose your hair abilities when you lose your hair, but taking on a new form that has hair restores them.
^This comes out to the same thing as I was saying, so I'll go along with that . . . .
To make a comparison, say I cast "fly" on a humanoid person, and then said humanoid somehow gets polymorphed into another form.
is the fly speed a "movement type possessed by your original form"? I believe the answer to this question and the one currently being discussed is the same, as "white hair" is a supernatural effect and thus also magical in nature.
My personal argument is that because polymorph is not a dispel or an anti-magic field, it does not get rid of white hair OR fly, because neither of those things are possessed by your original form; they are granted by magical sources and not currently suppressed or dispelled.
Just thought of something: The text that says "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form" is probably a misguided attempt to prevent confusion in case a new form gives you an ability that is similar in general idea, but different in details (for instance, your original and polymorphed forms both have gore attacks, but of a different size and/or Critical width/depth). The problem is that some polymorph spells and Wildshape (especially lower level ones) don't give you everything that the creature whose form you are changing into would have. (According to some admittedly rather old Druid guides, this is a cause for substantial grief for Totem Druids, made even worse because it is not equally grevous for all varieties.) So in some cases you might nerf yourself with a polymorph spell when changing to a form that has an ability like your original form, but the spell doesn't qualify for giving you that ability. The text that says "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form" is supposed to cover this, but it is easy for a too widely spread blanket reading of the first text to make unwanted holes such as a dog polymorphed into a wolf losing Scent.
A possible fix would be additional text for the first text above: "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form, except for abilities possessed by both your original form and your polymorphed form; abilities possessed by both forms, if similar but not identical (such as Darkvision) operate to the lesser extent specified by your original and polymorphed forms, unless the spell description specifies otherwise".
Back on the OP topic, the Eldritch Knight is far from garbage if you have the system mastery to exploit all the options it has. The view that it's bad tends to come from generalized theory-crafting, or experiences with sloppy building that results in a multiclass mess.
Just as an example, a Witch/ Eldritch Knight with the Strength Patron can use Heroism, Divine Favor and Arcane Strike for a massive combat buff through their casting side, and then use a level of Bloodrager with Extra Rage and Mad Magic through their martial side. At level 9, those buffs combined can be worth +9 to attack and damage on a character that already has decent BAB. A level 9 Witch/EK will also already have level 4 Witch spellcasting, allowing for things like Confusion or Persistent Glitterdust or whatever else.
Thank you for all of the comments everybody, I really didn't expect so many, and all of the branching topics were also interesting and gave me a few neat character ideas!
The character itself is finished, and I've come to appreciate EK a little bit more, after me and the DM gave it some more fluff to float on!