This is a different class for sure. Curious if anyone sees it as viable in society play and would be willing to share some thoughts (not concepts necessarily) on how it may play out.
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There are some good threads on the PFS General forum.
People are certainly making the vigilante work in their games. Not every concept will work in a PFS setting, but there are plenty that do. What are you thinking about?
So that just means using all your abilities and not worrying about keeping a secret identity?
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So that just means using all your abilities and not worrying about keeping a secret identity?
yeah. That concept is really hard to make work in pfs.
if you're going to try anyway, you should have a readily identifable signal for the dm and other players: a table tent you rotate, a mask you put on and take off, or a pair of character portraits on popsickle sticks: it has to be something the dm can identify in the middle of combat after more beers than hours of sleep.
There *is* something that may be handy for some folks that just came out in Blood of the Beast .
This got me looking at vigilantes. And my god they can be sick.
(*) Psychometrist Vigilante
(Lvl 1) Power Attack
(Lvl 2) Transmutation Implement-Legacy Weapon and buy a +1 weapon
That Lvl 2 takes up all your social and vigilante talents this far. But 1+Int times per day, you can take a standard action to make your weapon +2. This can take the form of any enchantment...including bane. And it lasts for 1 minute.
Think about it. For a standard action you can make your weapon +3 to hit and +2d6+3 damage. The limit of band is that it is only against a single type of enemy. With this you can choose the type as needed. That's insane!
So let's say...a half-elf with Str 18 Str 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7 who swings a greatsword.
At Lvl 2 he power attacks for 4d6 + 10 damage. That puts raging barbarians to shame. Sure, you can only did it twice per day...but in PFS you rarely get more than a handful of combats per day.
Tag on clever wordplay to use Int for diplomacy and skill focus diplomacy. Then at Lvl 3 he gets +4 to diplomacy, for a total of +14. A pretty decent party face and a dps beat stick.
yeah, vigilante is pretty sweet class.
That standard action hurts though
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I agree with that too, but the class is great even if you don't go that route.
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I think the Tony Stark method is the best working method for the class. Re: Grumbaki's build, there's very little there that you can't do better on an Occultist given that the Occultist was built to use implements in the first place.
The Vigilante gets a lot of its strength from its talents and giving them up removes much of the reason that you would use that class over something else. I recently put together a build to resemble the Overwatch character Reinhardt, focusing on skirmishing, charging, and being a big ol' wall of meat. It uses a lot of very powerful vigilante talents to create the combat side, while using social talents that flesh out the concept. Having built a mock-up, I kind of want to explore the class in actual play within PFS, but again, using that Tony Stark model of play.
Well there is the Tony Stark Method.. But there is also the Count of Monte Cristo method. In which your social Identity isn't ever used and you're in the vigilante mode all the time.
Most Social Talents don't need you to be in your social persona that really help at all anyways.
Social Grace is to me the best social talent and it's for social mode only.
A big problem is the viglante class itself. You need to burn all of your talents just to keep your identity secret and functioning instead of having a scaling benefit like most vigilante talents. That means you can either use a really hard to use ability.. or you can use a bunch of more powerful more useful abilities that are more relevant to your scenario.
A big problem is the viglante class itself. You need to burn all of your talents just to keep your identity secret and functioning instead of having a scaling benefit like most vigilante talents. That means you can either use a really hard to use ability.. or you can use a bunch of more powerful more useful abilities that are more relevant to your scenario.
Burn all your talents?
I don't think so. Though I would have liked to have Subtle Vigilante Talents and not-Subtle Vigilante Talents.
For example a character who takes the vigilante talent that lets him see in the dark, has to make checks technically for every time he can see in the dark.
If the vigilante uses any of these talents while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers (without the +20 circumstance bonus from seamless guise) or the onlookers will realize that he is more than his social identity appears to be and perhaps discover the social and vigilante identities are one and the same.
I mean really. The fact that its all vigilante talents is pretty dumb. Like if your social talent is that you're the fricking captain of a the guard, being proficient in the heavy armor you're wearing suddenly makes people gasp! They've discovered you're really the shadow! A vigilante who uses the cover of the night and light armor at most because you're really good at wearing heavy armor! No one else is good at wearing heavy armor after all!
Now something like Chase Master I could potentially see.. Though oddly it would make it so that you get a +4 on the disguise attempts up to level 9, to conceal your Identity. Then 1/2 vigilante levels after that.
For example a character who takes the vigilante talent that lets him see in the dark, has to make checks technically for every time he can see in the dark.
You could always just pretend you can't see. Nobody else is going to instantly be able to tell that you're seeing in the dark (heck, half of them probably can't even see you at that moment.
...I guess if there's folks with darkvision around you miiiiight want to make a bluff or two to fake being unable to see, but at the very least that should give your secrecy an extra layer of defense. Fail the bluff and they realize you can see? Then you do your disguise check.
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If the vigilante uses any of these talents while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers (without the +20 circumstance bonus from seamless guise) or the onlookers will realize that he is more than his social identity appears to be and perhaps discover the social and vigilante identities are one and the same.
Bolding mine.
If you use a vigilante talent in your social identity, the check is not to determine if on-lookers instantly know you're the crimson shadow, it's to determine if they figure out that Fritz the Blacksmith is more than they thought. You can easily explain away, in character, a lot of those suspicions through any plausible reason your character could have acquired those skills in their mundane life.
If Bruce Wayne is attending a fancy party and it's attacked by goons, and he punches one of them out, the check would be to determine "That was an expertly thrown punch" not to determine "he's Batman!". Bruce could just explain that he was trained with former heavyweight champion Ted Grant as a teenager and still likes to spar from time to time since it's excellent cardio (and a sufficiently macho passtime for a billionaire playboy) and people would know a new fact about Bruce Wayne but not that he's Batman; after all a lot of people know how to throw a punch.
So the aforementioned guard captain who moves well in heavy armor who doesn't pass the disguise check would just have onlookers conclude "he moves exceptionally well in heavy armor, I wonder where he learned that; is he ex-military?" not immediately conclude that he's a vigilante.
The Chase Master example is similar to if Bruce Wayne were to pull out a Katana and start using techniques that betray that he's a master ninja, since that's not something a billionaire playboy could easily explain away.
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I suppose my problem with the hidden identity thing is the setting.
You come to the table. The parties are...
(1) A wizard who openly brags about how powerful his family is
(2) A dispossessed nobleman with fancy clothes and a rapier
(3) A dwarven smith (day job) who specializes in hitting things with a hammer
(4) A cleric of Asmodeus
(5) You, a vigilante.
Given such a group of people...who really cares what your background is? Even if you are Bruce Wayne, you now live in a world where roaming adventurers are a part of life that nobody bats an eye at.
If Spiderman was in Golarion, you know what he'd be? Just another oddity fighting the Aspis. People might ask him where he got his powers from, but when every third person can cast lvl 1 spells, him being strong and being able to web people isn't that impressive.
----
"Hello, fellow pathfinders! I am Lars. Humble blacksmith."
"Ok...what the hell are you doing here?"
"I...uhm...am actually pretty good in a fight."
"Well I'd hope so! Otherwise you are going to get yourself killed."
<Two hours later, the first combat happens>
"Someone please tell me why Lars is wearing a mask."
"I wear this mask because I must hide my identity!"
"Nobody cares about your identity. So your day job is being a blacksmith. I've met four other pathfinders with the same day job. Stop acting silly."
------
"Hello, fellow pathfinders! I am Lars. Warrior."
"Good to meet you!"
<Two hours later, the party needs to make some knowledge tests. Lars makes them all>
"Egads! Now you all know my terrible secret. I am not your average warrior. My real name is Ludwig von Strumpin, dispossessed nobleman."
"Ok."
"Aren't you shocked?"
"Hey, if my name was von Strumpin I'd change it to. Just glad you were able to translate those books. Come on, lets get the McGuffin."
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TL/DR: I can't picture any scenario where anyone in PFS would care about your secret identity.
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I think the "Secret Identity" concept works in a traditional adventuring party when your vigilante identity isn't "The Silver Ferret" but an adventurer who is operating under a pseudonym in order to protect family, personal, or business interests from whatever enemies he or she is liable to make as an adventurer.
Like if the PC is a daughter of a noble family highly placed in the royal court, and is adventuring under an assumed name in order to prevent any political repercussions. The inevitable "reveal to the party" is something like "Guys, my father is a Duke, I'm the eighth kid so not that important in lines of succession. I'm actively avoiding that life, so I don't really want anybody to know, but if you guys need to get an invitation to the masquerade, I can pull some strings."
I mean, Edmond Dantès is as good a model for the Vigilante as anybody, and he was upfront about a great many different identities (Le Comte, Zatarra, Lord Wilmore, Abbé Busoni, etc.) just not as who he truly was.
The benefit of a vigilante who wants to hide their real identity hanging out with regular adventurers is that none of them are liable to care who they are, beyond who they say they are.
If the vigilante uses any of these talents while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers (without the +20 circumstance bonus from seamless guise) or the onlookers will realize that he is more than his social identity appears to be and perhaps discover the social and vigilante identities are one and the same.Bolding mine.
If you use a vigilante talent in your social identity, the check is not to determine if on-lookers instantly know you're the crimson shadow, it's to determine if they figure out that Fritz the Blacksmith is more than they thought. You can easily explain away, in character, a lot of those suspicions through any plausible reason your character could have acquired those skills in their mundane life.
If Bruce Wayne is attending a fancy party and it's attacked by goons, and he punches one of them out, the check would be to determine "That was an expertly thrown punch" not to determine "he's Batman!". Bruce could just explain that he was trained with former heavyweight champion Ted Grant as a teenager and still likes to spar from time to time since it's excellent cardio (and a sufficiently macho passtime for a billionaire playboy) and people would know a new fact about Bruce Wayne but not that he's Batman; after all a lot of people know how to throw a punch.
So the aforementioned guard captain who moves well in heavy armor who doesn't pass the disguise check would just have onlookers conclude "he moves exceptionally well in heavy armor, I wonder where he learned that; is he ex-military?" not immediately conclude that he's a vigilante.
The Chase Master example is similar to if Bruce Wayne were to pull out a Katana and start using techniques that betray that he's a master ninja, since that's not something a billionaire playboy could easily explain away.
However it doesn't say you get a chance to explain away anything. Or rather the ability to explain away is the Disguise check that you must make when you use a vigilante talent.
If the vigilante uses any of these talents while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers (without the +20 circumstance bonus from seamless guise) or the onlookers will realize that he is more than his social identity appears to be and perhaps discover the social and vigilante identities are one and the same.
That disguise check is you explaining away why you're prof with heavy armor. Why you have expertly timed punches. Etc.
It doesn't give you a chance to use anything to explain anything away in any other way than making that disguise check.
And of course the seamless guise doesn't apply to the check of someone thinking you are more than what you are.. even though that is when seamless guise is suppose to trigger. :/
I disagree, the disguise check is you making yourself look like someone who is not an accomplished boxer, but knocking the goon out anyway. Like how Batman generally makes it look like it's an accident or a lucky break when Bruce takes out the goon.
The NPC who succeeds on their perception check doesn't conclude "you're a vigilante" they just realize "huh, that's unusual" and how they choose to rationalize the "that's unusual" is up to the NPC, but I would venture unless you use your vigilante talents around that particular person *a lot* they're much more likely to conclude something far more mundane for the more mundane vigilante talents like "has heavy armor proficiency" or "has IUS". After all, lots of people in the world have those things that aren't vigilantes.
From a RPing perspective, you can basically guarantee that people will conclude that there's nothing that weird about you knowing how to punch if, after you knock the goon out, you loudly brag about having been taught by the former champ.
The point of a vigilante is that you're hiding from legal or social sanction for your crimes (or heroic actions). I imagine if PFS wants to punish the PCs for that it's a rare integral part of the plot that is supposed to be resolved, rather than a pervasive background threat. So the appeal isn't there.
Religious warrior in Rahadoum? Vigilante has benefits. Pathfinder conducting sanctioned missions out in the wilderness with few witnesses, and supported by a legal organization back home? Not so compelling.
If Spiderman was in Golarion, you know what he'd be?
Most likely a Wild Soul (Arachnid) archetype Vigilante.
Just another oddity fighting the Aspis. People might ask him where he got his powers from, but when every third person can cast lvl 1 spells, him being strong and being able to web people isn't that impressive.
That too.
The big thing is they wouldn't ignore him as some kid out of the local Academy who is too young to be adventuring.
There are ways to do it, but most of them should probably start by the player announcing "Today I'm playing a vigilante, so you will frequently see <X> disappear and shortly after that <Y> will appear. Nothing to see here, move along please."
That way the players can enjoy them knowing something while their characters are clueless.
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Might as well be in your vigilante identity the whole time, except for the odd scenario where it may actually help you to disguise yourself.
It's honestly better to be in your social identity to get whatever bonuses you get from that, and still use all your vigilante talents without any real drawbacks.
The Tony Stark approach would be , "Hi everyone, you all know me as John the blacksmith, but I am Heavy Metal, defender of the weak!" And then just carrying on as you go?
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More like "I'm Heavy Metal." Takes off mask to eat a pastry. "Oh, alright you've got me! I'm John the Blacksmith. Please don't tell people I'm Heavy Metal."
Then by about third level it is just "I'm John the Blacksmith, but you might have heard of me as Heavy Metal."
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I've found that it's much, much easier to just tell the party in the pre-boxtext introduction about the dual nature of your Vigilante. It saves on confusion, but more importantly, it saves on precious time. I enjoy the idea of having 'two' characters as much as the next person, but PFS play is not the same as a home game or an AP.
Besides, the biggest mechanical draw of the second identity is the divination immunity. In that case, you're traveling with 3-10 liabilities that practically invalidate it.
If Spiderman was in Golarion, you know what he'd be?Most likely a Wild Soul (Arachnid) archetype Vigilante.
Nah. That archetype feels a bit less like this and more like this. Or maybe this. I love that they tried, but you don't get to feel like Spooderman until level 18.
Might as well be in your vigilante identity the whole time, except for the odd scenario where it may actually help you to disguise yourself.It's honestly better to be in your social identity to get whatever bonuses you get from that, and still use all your vigilante talents without any real drawbacks.
I'm struggling with the same problem. Lisena here focuses on Snake Style, which is significantly better in her Social Identity thanks to Social Grace. That +4 to Sense Motive checks is pretty tempting. And hell, the +4 to Disguise means she can pull it off.
I still use the Vigilante Identity because it's fun and I get to talk with a silly hissss, but I'm considering a personal arc where she goes Tony Stark. Or, hell, maybe takes on a more traditional use of the Disguise skill to invent a third personality that blends the two.
You know, an idea for a pretty decent PFS Vigilante.
(1) Faceless Enforcer Archetype
(2) At lvl 5, for alternate identity, choose Aspis Consortium
For a bunch of scenarios, it could actually be pretty useful. Need to sneak into an Aspis base? Just walk right in and you've got access to it.
For making the character halfway decent...
Race: Dwarf
* Alternate Racial Trait (trade Hardy for toughness and +1 fort)
- Already get great Ref and Will saves from the class, but HP is lacking. This boosts you up to a d10 HP class.
* Alternate Racial Trait (trade your situational bonuses for +2 Diplomacy, +2 Bluff and +2 Prof-Merchant)
- While you get 20ft movement in your fullplate, Shadow's Steed gives you +10. For anyone but a dwarf, you'd still be stuck at 20ft. Now you up to 30ft, and at lvl 10 you are at 40ft.
Starting Stats:
Str (18) Dex (12) Con (16) Int (10) Wis (12) Cha (5)
Traits:
* Clever Wordplay (Int for Intimidate) and something that gives +1 Fort or Ref
- Between this and racials, you have an effective Cha10 for all face skills
Throw on a two handed weapon with power attack (lvl 1 feat). You've now got someone who plays initially just like a fighter, only with better saves and much better skills. And unlike a fighter you can dress yourself (thanks to the archetype allowing you to put your fullplate on by yourself), you can talk to people, and pretty soon you can move on par with monks and barbarians.
By the time you reach lvl 12, you can easily be sporting +10 in all your saves and AC-33, making you really resilient. The fact that you'll be Str24(ish) with a two handed weapon means that you can put on some serious hurt. And with D8 (+toughness and + Con16) you'll have enough HP to back it up as well.
And finally, the RPing potential is great. For example...
Social: You were a dwarven merchant whose shop was burned down by Aspis agents when you refused to sell. Your family was inside.
* Lawful Neutral
Vigilante: You are a heavily armored warrior who takes every opportunity to fight get vengeance against those who wronged you.
* Chaotic Neutral
Armored Enforcer: You can pretend to be an Aspis agent, so you can move inside your enemy's lairs and can learn their plans. All the better to return as a vigilante to extract your revenge.
* True Neutral
I can see it making an effective and fun character. Sure, it won't be the party's face (effective Cha10), and it won't be primary DPS (only Str24 with power attack), but you can be the party's tank. You can still DPS effectively, you can talk when need be, and you can rock the hell out of Aspis scenarios.