Nevermind on the how, though there is actually a way if memory serves, but what all would happen if the abyss, the outer shell of reality itself, was destroyed?
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Mass migration of demons and qlippoth survivors trying to conquer a new home for one, I think.
A need to rebalance the universe. If it was done quickly enough, then it endanger reality itself.
I don't think you could destroy the abyss. You could destroy parts of the abyss. You could destroy the inhabitants of the abyss. But I don't think you could actually destroy the whole plane.
But assuming you somehow could...I think it would reshape the whole multiverse. Possibly destroying everything. I don't think there is a way to destroy a plane without it having huge ramifications, except maybe the shadow plane.
I don't think you could destroy the abyss. You could destroy parts of the abyss. You could destroy the inhabitants of the abyss. But I don't think you could actually destroy the whole plane.
But assuming you somehow could...I think it would reshape the whole multiverse. Possibly destroying everything. I don't think there is a way to destroy a plane without it having huge ramifications, except maybe the shadow plane.
Killing a Danava pillar (or pillars), assuming any are tied to the abyss, could do it I believe. Of course, perhaps I might be misunderstanding.
On another aspect of this, while not delved into, there is also the matter of what is "Outside". Curious spellcasters and fiends return as devourers, for instance. What ever is there, without infinite layers in between...
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We'd all learn that the real Abyss is inside each of us...
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Nevermind on the how, though there is actually a way if memory serves, but what all would happen if the abyss, the outer shell of reality itself, was destroyed?
What you're describing is a story event, not one of mechanics, so the answer is all dependent on the storywriter. If you're under the impression that there is a metaphysical "science" as to how planes operate, let me dispel that for you right now.
Nevermind on the how, though there is actually a way if memory serves, but what all would happen if the abyss, the outer shell of reality itself, was destroyed?What you're describing is a story event, not one of mechanics, so the answer is all dependent on the storywriter. If you're under the impression that there is a metaphysical "science" as to how planes operate, let me dispel that for you right now.
Well, of course it depends on the storywriter. Writer pending, daredevil without his powers could beat the hulk at full power.
But where does that leave quintessence and potentiality? The river of souls?
Nevermind on the how, though there is actually a way if memory serves, but what all would happen if the abyss, the outer shell of reality itself, was destroyed?What you're describing is a story event, not one of mechanics, so the answer is all dependent on the storywriter. If you're under the impression that there is a metaphysical "science" as to how planes operate, let me dispel that for you right now.Well, of course it depends on the storywriter. Writer pending, daredevil without his powers could beat the hulk at full power.
But where does that leave quintessence and potentiality? The river of souls?
That's totally dependent on the story writer. I've never heard of the first two terms, as for the second, that's dependent on how Pharasma decides where those souls should go. There's a lot of unanswered questions. if something could take out the largest plane in the cosmology, what's stopping it from finishing the job with the rest. The quesiton you bring up brings up tons more and there are no "right" answers to many of them, but those answers can shape your question.
More than likely another plane will simply rise up to fill in the gap.
Quite frankly, unless it's written well is because there really isn't that much interest in it. Interesting stories ultimately center on people, not the cosmology itself.
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Actually, the outer shell of reality itself is the Maelstrom - the terrain that metaphysically border and surround each of the planes on the Outer Sphere. So if the abyss was destroyed, everything within would return to the Maelstorm.
- A war between Demons and Proteans would shake the multiverse.
- Lamashtu would probably attempt a second expedition into Abbadon, and some of her loyal demon lord followers would join her.
- Ancient qlippoth as powerful as deities, Rovagug brothers and sisters, would rise with the sudden destruction of their lair.
Actually, the outer shell of reality itself is the Maelstrom - the terrain that metaphysically border and surround each of the planes on the Outer Sphere. So if the abyss was destroyed, everything within would return to the Maelstorm.
- A war between Demons and Proteans would shake the multiverse.
- Lamashtu would probably attempt a second expedition into Abbadon, and some of her loyal demon lord followers would join her.
- Ancient qlippoth as powerful as deities, Rovagug brothers and sisters, would rise with the sudden destruction of their lair.
Im fairly certain the abyss surrounds the maelstrom, and in tern the rest of the great beyond, "like an onion with an impossibly thick skin."
But provided the demons/qlippoth/ect. are not destroyed with their plane I am sure such things would happen. Its hard to say.
Personally I always preferred the option of Swiss cheesing the Abyss with rivers of holy water, cascading down from above to fill the unknowable depths slowly over the aeons. My character even designed a special spell that causes any body of water to turn into holy water, then created an item of it meaning that any body of water touched by the rapidly growing pool turned into Holy Water (The Holy Goo Scenario)
Needless to say, that plan worked both great and poorly, good news! Heavy Demons sink! Dretch can't even teleport! Teleportation isn't much use when you keep teleporting into places filled with holy water! Quippoth race drowns! Total disorganization in the ranks and Demon Lords falling due to lack of waterwings! Dagons entire sea has been purified and boy is he salty about it!
Bad news! Demon activity up 1,000,000% across the board! Balor refugees taking refuge in the Maelstrom and Abaddon! Lesser Demons rampaging across society, half trying to join it as the power of the Abyss itself weakens, half trying to destroy it because they think they can dominate the ruins! The Abyss itself is howling with agony and driving some of the CN/NE gods insane! Oh Sweet Baby Jesus Dagon is coming and boy is he salty!
Really it went quite well in hindsight, in my opinion.
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Well, an entire metaphysical realm just exploding (or winking out, or whatever) would probably have one mother of an impact. The daemons of Abaddon would probably move in on the chaotic evil souls that had no destination- the Boneyard would get crowded as Pharasma had to sort out destinations for each and every formerly Abyss-bound soul, meaning the Boneyard would probably take on a slightly more evil character just due to the overwhelming presence of evil souls loitering around. Several gods would have to move house...
It'd be a mess, and it would probably result in the spread of evil to chaotic realms and chaos to evil realms in the long run.
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The proteans are already at perpetual war with the Abyss which they see as a corruption of true chaos and their mistake (either for cracking open the door into or creating it, their answer varies). If the Abyss goes away, the Maelstrom focuses on its metaphysical wayward children and commences to free/dissolve/liberate/devour/transfigureloveforgive the other planes.
Things get weird. Or rather they return to being weird.
Also the Abyss and Maelstrom are both infinite so the shell diagram is just metaphorical really. That sea/void of chaos never ends, but the Abyss is outside of it. There's no easy way to conceive of that on a normal map.
While you may be able to destroy the physical structures of the Abyss, the energy of it which is made up of ultimate evil and chaos would just swirl around for a while until it formed a new Abyss. It would start spitting out new Qlippoths for a while until new souls arrived and then you'd have demons again.
What lies at the "bottom" of the deepest Abyssal rift? What is "outside" even the outer planes/the Maelstrom?
It may be that the qlippoth are just pale reflections of what lurks beyond this "reality." Something so horrific and maddening that it would warp and destroy the very planes themselves if it could interact with them directly.
In the past, some have called this "The Far Realm." Some have also speculated that the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods may be harbingers or even lesser examples of the beings that exist outside of this existence: beings greater than Azathoth that float in shoals, making and unmaking all around them just by their presence.
How do you think we got Zon-Kuthon? o wo
Well the Cthulhu Mythos exists in the Pathfinder Cosmos. Perhaps the Abyss as the Outer Shell of reality is what separates us from the Outer Gods?
To answer the original question: What would happen if the sewer pipe that extends below the toilet was destroyed?
* * * * * * * *
Related to this, I have wondered about a world setting in which "Earth" and the various planes don't always correspond to the same physical place. Like some posted above, if you destroy the Abyss, another place gets converted into the new Abyss. Conceivably, somebody could even clean out the Abyss and make it into something else, but like I said above, all that poop has to go somewhere . . . And if you try to clean it up by pouring massive amounts of Holy Water into it, and actually manage to get enough Holy Water (A REALLY BIG IF), chances are that after killing a lot of its inhabitants, you will be left with a still fairly large and rapidly increasing set of Abyssals (Demons, Qlippoths, etc.) that are now resistant to that kind of Holy Water.
The Abyss is the outer layer of the planar cosmos.
It goes away, suddenly everything that was inside it would be exposed to all the stuff the Abyss was keeping safely on the Outside.
Well the Cthulhu Mythos exists in the Pathfinder Cosmos. Perhaps the Abyss as the Outer Shell of reality is what separates us from the Outer Gods?
The Outer Gods are thoroughly tied to the Prime.
They aren't being kept out by the Abyss; they're the rot in the very core of reality.
The Abyss might be the filter between the Golarion cosmology and whatever cosmology the Abyss was originally part of. Removing the Abyss may simply remove that filter, and its unknown if what's beyond is even worse.
The answer to this question also depends greatly on whether the demons are destroyed along with the Abyss. I assume they are, but if not then that's one hell of a locust horde for Lamashtu to lead against the planes.
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Mass migration of demons and qlippoth survivors trying to conquer a new home for one, I think.
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I believe that they would migrate the The Maelstrom and try to take over the realm of Chaos or that they would try to take the survivors to the Daemonic Realms. They would be the closest to the home that they lost. Going to the Nine Hells would create a war that the surviving demons and qlippoth would eventually lose
Here is a thought; The malestrom chips away at the material of other planes, taking the quintessence amd turning it into potentiality. What if at the "outside" of the abyss a similar process occurs? Given devourers, consuming souls (or merely quintessence) could be a trait of the outside and/or its denizens.
The real question, how do you make this into a meaningful campaign? Because if that's not your question, all we have so far is a nickel attempt to be Olaf Stapledon.
The real question, how do you make this into a meaningful campaign? Because if that's not your question, all we have so far is a nickel attempt to be Olaf Stapledon.
Two ways;
You have a mythic campaign where the party goes on a quest to destroy the abyss.
Or
You have a campaign set innthe aftermath, however long after.
Edit: or you use it as an Elder Evil situation. Abyss is gonna be destroyed or has been, and the party has to find a way to save the material, at least. Thats 3
For those that haven't noticed, there's a balance to the planes. The Maelstrom's primal chaos is offset by Axis, for example. So if you take one leg off the table, if you want to balance everything, one of two things might happen.
1) Heaven implodes. If chaotic evil can't have a home base, neither can lawful good. Perhaps next the other extreme alignment planes teeter and fall, the whole cosmos then headed to a point where nothing remains but the Boneyard, perfectly balanced on nothing....
OR
2) A new place for chaotic evil is created, perhaps purged from the Maelstrom. This time around, whole new breeds of outsiders form. Any remaining qlippoth and demons return to try to claim this new territory and engage in savage warfare, in the end both species staking out a few places of their own but now in a weaker position than the newest chaotic evil outsiders.
^Alternate version of #1 with a fair bit of #2 in it: Toilets start overflowing and bubbling out Demons and Qlippoths (and occasional members of other Chaotic Evil Outsider/Abyssal resident types), especially in Heaven. Soon Heaven is in really doop peep, and its residents have to evacuate. Eventually some of the surviving refugees manage to set up camps somewhere else, but they find that the Demons, Qlippoths, etc. have managed to set up a permanent home in what used to be Heaven, even rearranging its planar connections to seal the deal.