I am dming a group and the Paladin insists on doing whatever is most lustful in every situation... he's Lawful Good on paper, but he's acting Chaotic Good at best, I'm thinking of whammying him but offering him the chance to play the character he wants to play by making a mini-event where he gets offered an olive branch from one of the lust domain deities. If I do do that though anti-paladin doesn't really fit but neither does a regular paladin, i was thinking of modifying regular paladin in such a way that it was Chaos based perhaps instead of evil like anti-paladin or good like regular paladin. Any recommendations on this, especially regarding what deity might offer him a deal? I was thinking perhaps calistria? but i'd really prefer more focus on the lust since that's his sin.
Edit: actually i think Shamira might be perfect for this.
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also how is being lustful being chaotic?
Rysky, I don't think the problem is that the paladin is lustful. I think the problem is he's lustful in every situation. That's not a good thing(not like Evil either).
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Rysky, I don't think the problem is that the paladin is lustful. I think the problem is he's lustful in every situation. That's not a good thing(not like Evil either).
But neither is Lawful or Chaotic. Possessing a sex drive doesn't shift you toward any alignment.
How exactly they're being lustful and acting in those situations is another matter.
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for example he violated a skull and attempted to hide in the corner when another character got thrust into a sexual situation.
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This may be more of a playing style issue. If you would rather that the player tone down the sexual innuendo, you should discuss that with him -- especially if you would be equally uncomfortable with a non-paladin doing the same things.
Edit: I wrote this before I had any details about what the guy was doing. My original advice still stands, but you might want to word your side of it more strongly than I originally suggested. I wouldn't tolerate that sort of conduct from the player of an antipaladin, let alone a paladin.
I don't care if that's how he wants to be, neither does any of the rest of the group, i just don't think it's very Lawful Good Paladin-y.
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also how is being lustful being chaotic?exactly.
Depend on how he express it.
Depending on how obnoxious he is it can violate this part of his code of conduct:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."
He importune married women? Chaotic and no honor.
He leave sons and daughters in his wake, without caring for them? The same.
He leave broken hearts and don't care? Again the same.
He don't take "No." as a response? Same.
If he limits his lust to persons that are willing and interested there is no problem, but then he wouldn't be "lustful in every situation".
Who's his current deity? Some would get pissed at this faster than others.
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It depends on what kind of "lustful" we're talking about. Lust is a sin in Christianity, but that doesn't mean that it is inherently chaotic or non-good in nature; especially in a game like Pathfinder. Is he Pepe LePew who has no concept of personal space but has no real bad intentions? Or is he full-on "Grab'em by the pussy"?
And, as has been noted, Arshea (NG) and Lymnieris (LG) both have the Lust subdomain. Arshea is more about embracing sexual release as not being sinful while Lymnieris is more about helping those who have been forced into unwilling sexual encounters to understand that negative individual experiences aren't indicative of sexual practices as a whole. There's also Bolka (NG), the Dwarven patron of marriage, who helps couples of arranged marriages find love; she has the Lust subdomain.
It seems to be that you might be projecting an unfair personal bias upon his character.
I thought so too, but I believe OP is just using the word wrong. The Paladin in question is sexually desecrating a corpse.
for example he violated a skull and attempted to hide in the corner when another character got thrust into a sexual situation.
- Violated a skull? Sexually? This can considered to be evil in Golarion. This also goes against the Code of Conduct "act with honor". (Note: I would not allow graphic 'roleplay' like that in my games at all.)
Yes Sexually, It was, I believe a "humourous" over-reaction to a tough monster (skeletal champion). Everyone in my group is an adult so sexual content isn't a big deal for me.
Thrust? Or forced? If forced into a sexual situation, not stepping in is going against the Paladin Code of Conduct. "help those in need"
It was the General Store owner of Sandpoints daughter scenario from burnt offerings. He wasn't there but tried to sneak down there, which i didn't allow since it was out of game knowledge.
Both these are reasons for temporarily restraining all Paladin powers. The Paladin will need an Atonement spell cast to get it back. Multiple/extreme cases of this will cause a Paladin to fall.
I'd rather re-cast his character to fit the role he seems to want to play instead of temporarily crippling him.
PS. Make sure to talk with the player OUT of the game to ask what his goal is with these actions? Why is he doing this and where does he want to take his character?
I warned him several times when he chose Paladin and have mentioned code of conduct to him.
Who's his current deity? Some would get pissed at this faster than others.
Iomedae
It depends on what kind of "lustful" we're talking about. Lust is a sin in Christianity, but that doesn't mean that it is inherently chaotic or non-good in nature; especially in a game like Pathfinder. Is he Pepe LePew who has no concept of personal space but has no real bad intentions? Or is he full-on "Grab'em by the pussy"?
And, as has been noted, Arshea (NG) and Lymnieris (LG) both have the Lust subdomain. Arshea is more about embracing sexual release as not being sinful while Lymnieris is more about helping those who have been forced into unwilling sexual encounters to understand that negative individual experiences aren't indicative of sexual practices as a whole. There's also Bolka (NG), the Dwarven patron of marriage, who helps couples of arranged marriages find love; she has the Lust subdomain.
It seems to be that you might be projecting an unfair personal bias upon his character.
Most of the time he's pepe lepew, and i even let him start a relationship with ameiko kaijitsu but he continued to hit on everything with boobs.
Hmm, Iomedae does not have much of a position on lust, but she is pretty big on honor. The bit with the skeletal champion´s remains goes a bit further than she would be cool with. I would give this dude a probation first, since he did not get that on the first time.
Flirting with near everything is a bit much for a paladin of Iomedae, too, but if he does not get too vulgar it might not be a big enough issue to cause a fall in itself. That is, if he knows when to stop (as in, lightly flirting with a married woman may be okay, trying to proposition her for sex is not) and to take no for an answer.
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He's definitely not living up to Iomedae's code.
I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
I will have faith in the Inheritor. I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions.
I am the first into battle, and the last to leave it.
I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not surrender those under my command.
I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
I will guard the honor of my fellows, both in thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
I will suffer death before dishonor.
I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae’s perfection.
Maybe he should switch to warpriest of Somebody else?
After reading all of your helpful advice, thanks very much by the way this is what i'm thinking of doing.
Hit him with a temporary fall as a warning but after he realizes he's been chastised have him have an encounter with Shamira where she attempts to use his lust and the offer of new power to lure him away from Iometria, which i feel would be within her MO and a "good get" for her.
I feel like this might be a nice way to address his indiscretions in game as well as giving him a logical way to redefine his character if he so desires. But reinforcing that a Paladin of Iometria wouldn't behave that way, and bringing to his attention that he could seek a more suitable patron.
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Lust is a sin in Christianity, but that doesn't mean that it is inherently chaotic or non-good in nature; especially in a game like Pathfinder.
I'll pop in to point out that Christianity doesn't have a problem with being lusty - it just directs it towards marriage etc. Even lust as a deadly sin (not actually biblical - just some monk's list in the 4th or 5th century) was in reference to it controlling your life (like the stuff listed that this 'paladin' has done >.<) - in the same way that gluttony making you 800+lbs is different from being hungry and having the occasional cheeseburger.
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Why does he want to be a paladin at all? Is it about the fancy powers? The prestige? Because he doesn't know any alternatives? He might be better off as a warpriest of Calistria or something like that...
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Encourage to him that his actions have consequences. If he wants to hit on anything that moves have it impact a diplomatic scene, result in a barfight, or whatever. If he wants to play a paladin, how is he going to handle having a bunch of kids running around. Letting all his ex hook-ups struggle financially isn't very honorable - so unless he wants to walk around without his abilities, he has to think about that. Hit him with the Golarion equivalent of an STD (although that's trickier against a Paladin), make him realise that if he wants to play this up heavily - its going to have consequences eventually.
Speaking as someone who has actually played a Lustful Paladin (granted, more of a Paladin / Oracle / Mystery Cultist of Arshea multiclass but still), there isn't anything wrong with doing so. You just need to make sure that a) you don't overstep other players personal boundaries and b) act according to your code. (there is also c) realise when you are no longer in the right roleplaying game but I digress...). I agree that he isn't acting within Iomedae code, but outside of punishing him for the skull thing, I wouldn't slam him too hard under Iomedae - but make it clear that she isn't pleased with him. Offer him other deities that might fit better but if he wants to stick with Iomedae, maybe she sends him a few signs of his displeasure at his actions, such lights flickering, metal shattering (don't be a dick and shatter his weapon though), or anything metallic losing its edge - examples as mentioned in her deity entry.
Ever seen It Follows?
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Why does he want to be a paladin at all? Is it about the fancy powers? The prestige? Because he doesn't know any alternatives? He might be better off as a warpriest of Calistria or something like that...
If he's having sex with skulls, Urgathoa is probably a better choice.
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Why does he want to be a paladin at all? Is it about the fancy powers? The prestige? Because he doesn't know any alternatives? He might be better off as a warpriest of Calistria or something like that...If he's having sex with skulls, Urgathoa is probably a better choice.
There's also Menxyr, The Coffin Groom.
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Apart from the skull thing (which I feel most good-sligned goods would find distasteful, at the very least!), I agree that simply being lustful probably doesn't *strictly* violate the Iomedean paladin code, though it might earn him some hard looks from more traditional members of the faith -- and it might run against this tenet:
"I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae’s perfection."
All-in-all, it's probably not how *I* would play a Paladian of Iomedae, but I can't really advocate for him to fall because of it.
In the circumstances, I think it might actually be fun to slow play this. Let him get his lust on, and maybe even contrive for him to engage in intercourse with one or more ladies in Sadnpoint. No need to make a big deal of it -- until several months later the young lady (or, even better, ladies) come to visit him, obviously with child. Surprise, surprise -- he's the dad!
And like many new mothers, they are not entirely keen to have the father of the child leaving them behind to go off and put themselves at risk. And, of course, one or more of them might press him to get married -- so as not to bring her shame.
Beyond nthe simple 'fun' factor, I think this sort of situation would bring home the consequences of the earlier behaviour and put the character in a situation where his obligations vis-a-vis honour are put squarely in issue.
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I had someone playing a paladin in the Carrion Crown game I ran, and in book two the party decided to break someone out of prison. The paladin helped. While I was fine with them doing it, since it's the opposite of "lawful" I told the paladin she had a very chastising dream that night, involving an apparition of one of her deity's emissaries. It might be a bit late for you to do something like that ("Wait, so I can't do this but you didn't mind when I did this other thing?"), but what you could do is have increasingly severe consequences of his actions. Here's a possible progression:
1) During one of his trysts, inform him he now has an STD. He might find it pretty funny, but until he gets a remove disease he'll take some specific penalty.
2) Later, some girl tearfully revisits him saying that he had gotten her pregnant, and because she couldn't raise the child she had it aborted. (Not out of the realm of possibility in a medieval-ish setting; some herbs will do this.) It should put a pretty sobering note on his escapades, and you could also have some of the townspeople now give him the cold shoulder.
3) Finally, like Steel Refrain suggested, you could have a girl turn up pregnant who wants the child. The most honorable thing for your paladin to do is stay with her, effectively ending his adventuring career. If he leaves her, that isn't the least bit "good" and might even cause a fall. If he kills her or the growing baby, that would almost definitely cause a fall.
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He assaulted a skull. Have his half-undead child show up later.
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Hey OP, I am not sure if you have seen the Gray Paladin archetype from Ultimate Intrigue. It has less of an alignment restriction as the standard paladin. It lets the paladin be Lawful Neutral and Neutral Good in addition to Lawful Good. Perhaps, he could retrain to this archetype and even weave it into the story with the olive branch idea from a god that is good and has the lust domain if you like, or his character can find another reason to retrain to this archetype.
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*sigh*
Sing it with me.
♩ This is a problem ♫ With a Player ♬
♯ Talk it over ♬ Like mature adults ♭
♬ That the only way ♫ To fix the problem. ♩ ♩ ♩ ♩
♩ Oh, won't you understaaaaaannnnnd ♬
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If I do do that though anti-paladin doesn't really fit but neither does a regular paladin, i was thinking of modifying regular paladin in such a way that it was Chaos based perhaps instead of evil like anti-paladin or good like regular paladin.
You might also look into the alternate paladin builds from 3.5. The Paladin of Freedom was Chaotic Good, which sounds like what you're looking for.
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Have you any prior experience with this player? Does he always act like this? "Adult" does not necessarily guarantee "mature."
Hey OP, I am not sure if you have seen the Gray Paladin archetype from Ultimate Intrigue. It has less of an alignment restriction as the standard paladin. It lets the paladin be Lawful Neutral and Neutral Good in addition to Lawful Good. Perhaps, he could retrain to this archetype and even weave it into the story with the olive branch idea from a god that is good and has the lust domain if you like, or his character can find another reason to retrain to this archetype.im all for loosening a paladins need to be lawful good but gray paladin blows hard you may as well just be playing a fighter at that point as you lose pretty much all the paladin stuff
I agree Lady-J, the gray paladin is pretty weak compared to the straight paladin. Being able to smite a neutral foe is kind of cool, but it doesn't make up for nerfing the other paladin abilities. I just threw it in the mix as an alternative if the PC wants to play a paladin with a slightly looser code of conduct. The archetype might be okay in a game where more subtlety is needed then having a straight paladin since you do get bluff, disguise and intimidate as class skills, though there are traits that can make those class skills as well.
I guess gray paladin isn't too bad when you play the archetype to its strengths - feint and demoralize should work pretty well, though other party members might benefit more from it than you. A more loose code of conduct can make quite a difference, depending on your GM - and it can avoid some trouble within the group (less 'no, my PC is too holy to allow you to play your PC like intended'). Finally it doesn't push you too much into having only one viable option way too often. It might be a nerf overall, but paladin is among the warrior classes who can afford it.
Pathfinder has the chevalier as a CG paladin-lite PrC, and there are a few other optionsthat have the "divinely inspired warrior" feel to it. As for the grey paladin...feh, it still does not offer the option for CG or TN patrons, even though it lets the character itself be freer with alignment. Alas, we still have no way to get paladins of Desna or Pharasma.
Firstly, OP, you're amazing. You managed to post a thread with a first post and title which was guaranteed to bring out the local Paladin Defence League, and then you throw down what really happened!
Awesome.
I agree with most people here: nothing wrong with a lusty paladin, but desecrating corpses is... a bit much. Smack on wrist warning time.
I'd say talk to the player about it out of character, don't have anything happen in character just yet (Except maybe a warning dream or two.)
Nothing he's done is evil and I wouldn't say violating a skull is CG, it isn't really any alignment. Being a voyeur is kind of chaotic though, in its own way since its going against the taboos of the land.
More importantly though, I'd say the player isn't taking the role seriously and that's where the problem is coming from, if he can explain it all perfectly as IC logic then fair enough, but if you want a player to play things straight and they've opted not to, no amount of in character warnings are going to change things, because its only people that are taking things seriously and care about in character consequences, that get bothered and react to in character warnings.
He assaulted a skull. Have his half-undead child show up later.
While this would be hilarious, it'd probably only drive the player more down the road of treating things like a comedy.
You managed to post a thread with a first post and title which was guaranteed to bring out the local Paladin Defence League, and then you throw down what really happened!
You mean he didn't give full details and was initially vague, then more detail was supplied and it turns out things were worse than people expected.
"Being Lustful" isn't a reason for a Paladin to fall, its not being Chaotic."Desecrating the dead" is a different kettle of fish.
The reason people feel the need to defend Paladin players is because there are GMs out there who think that a Paladin is a Challenge, that only by making them fall can you have an interesting story. Which is absurd (See above for people suggesting he should be put in a situation where he either leaves the party forever or instantly falls - you could have a girl turn up pregnant who wants the child. The most honorable thing for your paladin to do is stay with her, effectively ending his adventuring career. If he leaves her, that isn't the least bit "good" and might even cause a fall.)
*sigh*
Sing it with me.
♩ This is a problem ♫ With a Player ♬
♯ Talk it over ♬ Like mature adults ♭
♬ That the only way ♫ To fix the problem. ♩ ♩ ♩ ♩
♩ Oh, won't you understaaaaaannnnnd ♬
It didn't rhyme i'm disappointed in you snowblind.
An adventuring paladin should be able to afford child support without settling down. Heck, he can probably deposit 18 years' child support on her all at once and call it a day.
An adventuring paladin should be able to afford child support without settling down. Heck, he can probably deposit 18 years' child support on her all at once and call it a day.
Agreed on this one; settling down to raise a kid rather than adventure would be the less Good option in a lot of cases, depending on the campaign.
I thought we were talking about an archaic definition of lustful something like: wishful, desirous, having an eager desire. Which comes off as selfish and short-sighted not good traits and in excess I could see being very un-paladin-like. Then I got to the skull part....
An adventuring paladin should be able to afford child support without settling down. Heck, he can probably deposit 18 years' child support on her all at once and call it a day.
Since human characters start at base age 15, I'd say it only needs to be 16 years.
3 sp per day for food (common meals) over 16 years is 1,752 gp. Round that up to 2,000 gp for miscellaneous expenses and you're probably about right. Of course, dropping 40 lbs of gold off with someone is probably a good way to cause them problems. Some sort of annuity would be better.