Apologies if this is not the normal area for this post, but since I am sort of looking for advice (if there even is any for this situation), I figured I would go here.
I'm a relative newbie to Tabletop RPGs. I've been playing for about 2 years now, the majority of that being Pathfinder. When I started, I joined a group that had been playing for years before me, and so, I had never been in a position where I was dealing with less experienced individuals.
Cut to present. About 6 months ago, I joined a Roll20 group, with a very experienced DM, who was starting an AP for 2 of his friends. These two friends were completely new to Pathfinder. I have ended up being the 2nd most experienced member of the party, which has led to me helping out with rules and magic items and the like. I don't mind this at all, and in fact, I honestly enjoy watching these guys grow and learn more, able to do their own level ups and decisions. The party is as follows
Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctor (The DM's, added when we only had 3 other players)
Human Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple
Human Slayer (Path of War Class)
Human Alchemist (Came in late)
And my character, an Elf Paladin/Sentinel of Erastil, using the Divine Hunter Archetype.
Here's my concern. As we've leveled up, as odd as it sounds, I feel like I'm overshadowing the others when it comes to combat. Social Interactions is an entirely different standpoint, as I'm the only person who boosted Diplomacy, so they get that. But for a large majority of the last book (We just finished book 3 tonight), my character has been front and center in combat. Note, this was before I found out Ranged Paladins are ridiculous While in my initial group I'd be fine with this, I'm concerned that if I take up too much of the combat, it will frustrate the others. Tonight, the Bloodrager's player made a comment about how this last whole session was "My show", which, while he said it as a passing joke, gave me some pause, because I'm afraid that it's not necessarily completely a joke.
And so I come to the forums just to ask; should I adjust anything? And if I should, what would you suggest I change?
For your information so that you can ask questions, I give you my character's current sheet.
Gear: +2 Light Fortification Mithral Chain Shirt, +2 Belt of Physical Might (Str and Dex), +4 Headband of Alluring Charisma, +2 Ring of Protection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, Stag's Healm, First Aid Gloves, +2 Cloak of Resistance
That's all the major stuff. I thank you in advance for any and all suggestions/comments.
I'm afraid you have, completely by accident, stumbled upon one of the best builds in the entire game.
I'd suggest that you talk to your DM about taking steps to counter you. Maybe you're getting so famous as a paladin that your enemies go to steps to neutralize you in particular.
Fickle Winds and stuff that stops archery would help, as would monks with Snatch Arrows.
Aside from just making poor choices in combat or holding back on purpose there's little you can do. As noted you've stumbled on one of the best builds (I also have been in your shoes). I guess you'll have no choice but to be content with being an almighty powerhouse.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Since you mention Book 3, I would guess you are going through an AP. Which one?
I agree, talk to the GM about having the next couple of encounters work against what you have built. Twisting passages so he can't get line of sight, enemies that are not evil, enemies using Fog Cloud, Wind Wall, or other such spells.
Might also talk to the GM about strategies to fight archers so that the melee people have a chance to shine.
I guess I shall give a little more details, so that you can also understand why my worry has come up. We are in the middle of Kingmaker
Kingmaker Spoilers up Through Book 3:
Things weren't really terrible in the first book and a half. The Bloodrager was doing crazy damage (He started with the Abyssal Bloodline, changed it partway through because he saw Dragon Disciple and the DM was okay with that), the Slayer was working with his maneuvers, and I provided ranged support. When I got Rapid Shot at the end of book 1, combined with Deadly Aim, the damage started to increase, but I was still even with the Bloodrager, because of the added damage from Power Attack.
The problem has really come into play ever since we reached book 3, the Varnhold Vanishing. We ended up going to Vordakai's tomb early, due to a Lawful Good Paladin wishing to find out what happened in the Valley of the Dead. Because of the movement of enemies, the Bloodrager has started to not be able to get his full attack, whereas I'm able to stand by (Even when I've tried to draw aggro through taunts/comments to the DM).
Vordakai himself may have been the straw that broke the Camel's back though. Being a lich, he had DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic. This was a combo literally only 1 other person in the party had, the Alchemist, doing his d8+5 damage. The Slayer had no bludgeoning weapons, and while the Bloodrager had enough strength to bypass DR, he was only doing about 15 points of damage a round.
My Paladin was in the back, Smiting Evil. At this point, I had Many Shot. I did roughly 150 points of damage to him in 2 rounds, causing him to Dimension Door away. As soon as he came back, once again, 2 Full Attacks later, and he was in single digits. The Alchemist finished him off. However, this was when I could feel some real tension and frustration from the party, especially the Slayer, who didn't do a single point of damage.
Just tonight, we were continuing some exploration, running into 6 Manticores. The problem with Manticores is that they flew, out of reach of everyone else. The Slayer had a simple Longbow, the Alchemist had his bombs. But the Bloodrager, who did have a good Composite Longbow, could not hit a thing. Once again, the Paladin did most of the work, downing 5 of the 6, finishing off 2 unhelped (Including a 70 point Critical Hit). This is what prompted the Bloodrager to mention that it was "My show", it seemed.
I'll definitely see what I can do about spell selection.
I'm afraid you have, completely by accident, stumbled upon one of the best builds in the entire game.
I'd suggest that you talk to your DM about taking steps to counter you. Maybe you're getting so famous as a paladin that your enemies go to steps to neutralize you in particular.
Fickle Winds and stuff that stops archery would help, as would monks with Snatch Arrows.
Elaborate please unless something dramatic has changed in the divine hunter archetype I have a hard time believing it's one of the best builds unless the divine boons are super powerful to compensate for the horrible divine hunter archetype
I'm not sure how you're overshadowing your party.
Unless you're having 1 big combat to use smite and one shot everything, your to hit is around 60% chance to hit against an average CR10.
Overall it's a pretty standard build.
I fail to see how you overshadow. Are you applying the +4 to AC your allies impose on your hits?
If they stand on the imaginary line you trace against your enemies, that's an automatic +4 AC for them
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Some of this is the Kingmaker AP. In general, you have small fights -- often only one fight a game day. That allows those who can alpha strike hard to do so without worrying about the next fight.
I am sort of surprised that you haven't had a problem with surprise rounds though. Slayer and Bloodrager have Perception as a class skill and hopefully have put points into them. They should get a surprise round to do stuff while you are flat footed.
Because it is Kingmaker, there are several enemies that should be able to start adapting to your style. I don't know what position in the Kingdom you hold, but I would imagine that tales have spread of some of your feats. Some of the side quests just about require it.
With that, the enemies would start looking to set up ambushes and close with you. Having put so much investment into ranged combat, I expect that you are much less impressive than the Bloodrager in melee.
Tell the Slayer and Bloodrager to pick up some potions of fly. They really should have a couple.
Depending on how it is built, I would expect that the Slayer should get an opportunity to shine soon. I've played through Kingmaker but am less sure of exactly which books cut off where. You've got some stuff coming up that can use skills no paladin has.
I would avoid going for Point Blank Master or the Snap Shot feats since melee is the one place you are relatively weak. You really might want to look at some of the ways you could aid the others rather than continue to widen the gap in power.
If your GM is on the forums, you might suggest they post something like this in the Kingmaker AP area. That would allow him to get some ideas of how to better level the playing field using what is already in the AP.
Divine hunter isn't bad, Rothlis, it's just not as good as the base paladin. It doesn't get auras or a mount, which is pretty 'bad', but...the base paladin chassis.... and heck, even Fighters can do amazing with archery. The bonus feat at first level just makes it easier for them to spec into archery.
Just *being a paladin*, which is a great class, and *being an archer*, which is the best martial combat style, together, makes it.
You'd have to do something like trade out Smite Evil to make it genuinely a 'bad' archetype.
Divine hunter isn't bad, Rothlis, it's just not as good as the base paladin. It doesn't get auras or a mount, which is pretty 'bad', but...the base paladin chassis.... and heck, even Fighters can do amazing with archery. The bonus feat at first level just makes it easier for them to spec into archery.
...
Divine Hunter suffers from having really sucky trades later on. However, if you plan on taking Weapon Bond anyway, then early on it is worth considering for an Archery Paladin. Heavy Armor Proficiency isn't really a loss for a dex based character, so trading that for Precise Strike is a pretty good deal. The rest of the trades before 8th level are more or less a wash. It is only when the paladin loses immunity to charms for a crappy version of improved precise shot that the archetype starts to suffer, and the 11th level trade is flat out terrible. The archetype would be fine for an E6 campaign or as something that is retrained out of, though.
In a HERO system superhero campaign I played in at one time, the character backstory/build combo I decided upon gave me immense flexibility and, as I am one of those people who can play very tactically, a very high damage potential. I could have made it 'The Wyrm Show', but I don't believe I even once directly attacked an opponent; everything I did was to enable the other characters, whether that was long-range mass transport, preventing a building from collapsing (due to the actions of the PCs, in fact), healing, using invisibility on a character, shield party members from an ill-thought-out angle-of-attack by another PC, whatever. I could have been dropping the hammer on the bad guys, but with 6-7 other PCs, there were enough to do that, and I specifically knew about my flexibility and potential for OP, so didn't want to get into the situation in which you've found yourself.
So talk to your GM or people on the boards about gaining buff/debuff abilities - things that'll force flying manticores down, temporarily shut down DR, or boost your allies' abilities to do damage. Being able to use certain combat maneuvers (trip?) at range might help, or interrupting spellcasting, or whatever will let you hamstring your opponent so that your allies can get into it with them, but not nuke the bad guy completely.
By my calculations your character has a 30 point buy. This leads me to assume that your group rolls for stats. Do the other characters in the party have equally good stats? If not that is probably the main problem. Your gear is also well above the wealthy by level guidelines, and is very well optimized for your character. Is the rest of the party equally well equipped for their characters? If one of these are true than your character is probably more powerful than the rest of the group. If both of them are true than, your character is significantly more powerful than the rest of the group.
If there is an imbalance than the best solution is a rewrite of the characters. Adjusting the gear is not too difficult, but the other players and even the GM may need some assistance in figuring out the optimal gear. The stat adjustment is trickier because no one likes to have a character lose things, but lowering your stats is probably the best way to go. Those stats may also be causing your GM problems by making it difficult to balance encounters.
@Bret1. I am certainly going to suggest Potions of Fly for the Slayer. The Bloodrager is close enough to getting his Wings from the Draconic Bloodline that he may not need to purchase them. The Alchemist also has the Wings discovery, which from what I can tell works for flying as well. But for the moment, I certainly am going to look into that. As for Surprise rounds, the Bloodrager does not have points into it, and the Slayer, while he does have it, almost always rolls poorly when we're looking for enemies (It's a curse of his, that he'll roll less than 10 in those situations).
@Mysterious Stranger
We did not roll for stats. The GM gave us a 30 point buy to work with, because he wanted MAD classes to have a better shot, and also, because he felt that it makes characters feel more heroic than to be held to a 15-20 point buy.
As for the gear, the GM gave everyone a straight upgrade in the form of an arena style area in the Stolen Lands. The party went and fought a 4 man party with class levels that were equal to ours. Upon winning, we were gifted the opponent party's gear as a sign of victory. I earned a +1 Mithral Agile Breastplate (Mistyped in the original post, but I've been growing it) and the +1 Seeking Greatbow.
The Bloodrager currently has Gauntlets of Giant's Strength +4 (another thing allowed by the GM), a +1 Courageous Ferocious Greataxe (The weapon he won from the arena), Boots of Speed, and +1 Mithral Fullplate, due to the Steelblood Archetype he took. The Slayer has 2 +1 Keen Weapons, a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt (the item I wrote in the top), and a ring of Freedom of Movement. We all have Cloaks of Resistance of varying pluses and Rings of Protection in the same range.
Thanks for all the advice so far. I have definitely decided to not go down the Snap Shot/Clustered Shots way of feats. I'll probably be taking Critical feats from this point on, unless something else catches my eye.
Note, this was before I found out Ranged Paladins are ridiculous.
It's not only Paladins. Almost any damage dealer is outpaced by a composite longbow build (Fighter, Ranger and Slayer can all do the build really easy). It's strength synergize with Pathfinder's combat system:
-Greatest opportunity to ignore positioning (unlike anyone in melee).
-Cheap action economy (since you can ignore positioning, you can full-attack instead of spending move actions).
-Great number of iterative attacks with full damage and low to-hit penalty (unlike TWF, where you need to spend an additional feat to deal full damage with your additional attacks and your second additional attack is made with an effective -7 to-hit penalty, compared to Manyshot at only an effective -2 to-hit from Rapid Shot. It also doesn't help that TWF costs much more).
-Versatility through ammunition (Going up against Skeletons? There are arrows for that. Going up against fey? There are arrows for that too, etc).
You can't really avoid being better than the others without shooting yourself in the foot. Unless you can get your DM to house-rule buff the others a bit.
It looks like the party is pretty even on stats and gear so it is probably about the build of the characters. Your build is pretty tightly focused and very well optimized. You are also playing a class that specializes in taking down the BBEG. A couple of things may help even the playing field.
One is if you are tracking ammunition. I know a lot of players don’t bother with it, but it is the best way to reign in an archery based character. Your character is able to get off 4 attacks per round which means you empty a normal quiver in 5 rounds. I did not see an efficient quiver in your list of items, nor did you mention if you are using durable arrows. If not it will be pretty easy to exhaust your supply of arrows in which case you become a lot less powerful. Even with an efficient quiver you can still run out of arrows.
Also is your GM using the rules for cover? You have precise shot so ignore the -4 for firing into melee, but most that does not mean you get to ignore the fact that your target has cover. Often your own teammates will be providing the cover. The extra +4 to the targets AC means your chance of hitting is a lot less, which will really lessen your damage output. Keep in mind that seeking only eliminates the miss chance from concealment; it does not negate the AC bonus form cover. A target can have both cover and concealment and if so takes the penalties for both. Of course improved precise shot will eliminate the penalty for cover. I would suggest you may want to not take that next level when you qualify for it.
Part of it is also the adventure path you are playing Kingmaker has a reputation of having a lot of single encounter for a day. This means classes that have the ability to go nova can really shine because they don’t have to hold anything back. A few random encounters could change that and restore some of the balance. Even changing the encounters to give more minions to deal with will alter the dynamics.
Divine hunter isn't bad, Rothlis, it's just not as good as the base paladin. It doesn't get auras or a mount, which is pretty 'bad', but...the base paladin chassis.... and heck, even Fighters can do amazing with archery. The bonus feat at first level just makes it easier for them to spec into archery.
Just *being a paladin*, which is a great class, and *being an archer*, which is the best martial combat style, together, makes it.
You'd have to do something like trade out Smite Evil to make it genuinely a 'bad' archetype.
In my play group the loss of aura of courage is a fairly large handicap because there's a real simple 2hander build that gets free action intimidates also many creatures we use have fear abilities or auras and I agree with Snowblind the trades get worse the longer you stay divine hunter although I would like to know what boons you have imo most Prcs are pretty bad with a few exceptions
