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I notice that two concepts aren't adequately handled by pathfinder classes, and I think some new classes would be welcome.

1) A dedicated shifter

There are some archetypes based off this concept, and to an extent, a class (the druid). But all these classes and archetypes either impose a highly specific flavor or theme over this shifting (such as a druid's focus on nature) or simply impose the shifting theme on top of a pre-existing class. There is no generic shifter.

2) A go-all-day ray specialist

The options for this kind of character are to use a psionic class (many tables ban psionics) or to use an archetype of vigilante (a class which is widelay regarded as niche and setting specific). There's a witch archetype too, but the appeal of this kind of character is so broad that I don't think it should be buried in a couple archetypes.


Agreed on 1, but does the Kineticist not exist?

...Although for that matter if we're bringing 3rd party stuff into it (Psionics), I'm pretty sure there's a shapeshifter class somewhere.


Eh, Vigilante isn't any more "widely regarded" as that than Gunslinger or Cavalier. Kineticist covers the all-day ranged mystical murder just fine, though.


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Classes shouldn't be about concepts, in my opinion, but about roles. Concepts are for archetypes and prestige classes. I know Paizo has to keep putting out product, but the sheer number of available classes is already redundant and getting increasingly specialized (conceptualized, if you will).


Viriato wrote:
Classes shouldn't be about concepts, in my opinion, but about roles. Concepts are for archetypes and prestige classes. I know Paizo has to keep putting out product, but the sheer number of available classes is already redundant and getting increasingly specialized (conceptualized, if you will).

Okay. There's no class that really supports the role of dedicated shapeshifter?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

It's also pretty easy to do shape-shifting focused with a variety of approaches.

Hmm. Now I'm thinking about doing a self-buff wizard that focuses on forms. Oh! Such delicious ideas.


GinoA wrote:

It's also pretty easy to do shape-shifting focused with a variety of approaches.

Hmm. Now I'm thinking about doing a self-buff wizard that focuses on forms. Oh! Such delicious ideas.

Oooh a shifter that really takes advantage of that tasty half bab!


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The Skin-Changer Ranger is a version of the Spell-less Ranger(3rd party) that is an excellent dedicated shapeshifter. Then there's the Spheres of Power class, Shifter(or Mage Knight.. or even Armorist...).


QuidEst wrote:
Viriato wrote:
Classes shouldn't be about concepts, in my opinion, but about roles. Concepts are for archetypes and prestige classes. I know Paizo has to keep putting out product, but the sheer number of available classes is already redundant and getting increasingly specialized (conceptualized, if you will).
Okay. There's no class that really supports the role of dedicated shapeshifter?

Shapeshifting isn't a role in tabletop RPGs, or anywhere else, for that matter. Never has been. It's a gimmick, one that the druid - and, to a lesser extent, transmuters - already have covered, and one that most certainly isn't crying out for a class all of its own. It's a prestige class or an archetype at best.


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Yes, I would love a non-spellcasting shape shifting class.

Liberty's Edge

As mentioned up thread, check out the
Skin-changer in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press

It is very much a dedicated martial shifter class!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

1) For a "dedicated shifter" (as most people use the term), not really.

As mentioned, there are many classes (some through archetypes) that deal with shifting shape. The closest option to a "dedicated shifter" in Paizo published material is probably the metamorph archetype for the alchemist (Ultimate Intrigue).

For a "shifter" with the broadest range of forms (through spells, mainly) that can also be a decent combatant, there is always ranger (wild hunter) 1/wizard (Transmutation/Shapeshift school) 3/ranger +1 (Aspect of the Beast/Claws of the Beast, Combat Style/Rending Claws)/wizard +2/eldritch knight 10/wizard +3; pick up the Multimorph arcane discovery, of course. Alternately, if you want a bit more flexibility in use of spell slots, ranger (wild hunter) 1/arcanist (brown fur) 1/ranger +1 (Aspect of the Beast/Claws of the Beast, Combat Style/Rending Claws)/arcanist +5/eldritch knight 10/arcanist +2 can also work.

You could also focus a bit more around dragons and melee combat with barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2*/sorcerer (Draconic) 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10; probably with Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) and Improved Eldritch Heritage (select Strength of the Abyss) for even higher Str. Variants include barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2/skald (spell warrior) 1/wizard (Transmutation/Shapeshift school) 2/dragon disciple 4 (advance wizard spellcasting)/eldritch knight 10/wizard +1 for Multimorph and barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2/skald (spell warrior) 1/arcanist (brown fur) 3/dragon disciple 4 (advance arcanist spellcasting)/eldritch knight 10.

*- to qualify for Moment of Clarity, either selected at 2nd level or through the Extra Rage Power feat

2) As mentioned, kineticist fills the "go all day ray specialist" fairly well.


I am surprised i havent seen this mentioned yet, perhaps i missed it somewhere in the thread already? But what about a moon cursed barbarian? its not an all day shifter but it is enough rounds per day i would think.


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Dragonchess Player wrote:

1) For a "dedicated shifter" (as most people use the term), not really.

As mentioned, there are many classes (some through archetypes) that deal with shifting shape. The closest option to a "dedicated shifter" in Paizo published material is probably the metamorph archetype for the alchemist (Ultimate Intrigue).

For a "shifter" with the broadest range of forms (through spells, mainly) that can also be a decent combatant, there is always ranger (wild hunter) 1/wizard (Transmutation/Shapeshift school) 3/ranger +1 (Aspect of the Beast/Claws of the Beast, Combat Style/Rending Claws)/wizard +2/eldritch knight 10/wizard +3; pick up the Multimorph arcane discovery, of course. Alternately, if you want a bit more flexibility in use of spell slots, ranger (wild hunter) 1/arcanist (brown fur) 1/ranger +1 (Aspect of the Beast/Claws of the Beast, Combat Style/Rending Claws)/arcanist +5/eldritch knight 10/arcanist +2 can also work.

You could also focus a bit more around dragons and melee combat with barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2*/sorcerer (Draconic) 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10; probably with Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) and Improved Eldritch Heritage (select Strength of the Abyss) for even higher Str. Variants include barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2/skald (spell warrior) 1/wizard (Transmutation/Shapeshift school) 2/dragon disciple 4 (advance wizard spellcasting)/eldritch knight 10/wizard +1 for Multimorph and barbarian (brutal pugilist) 2/skald (spell warrior) 1/arcanist (brown fur) 3/dragon disciple 4 (advance arcanist spellcasting)/eldritch knight 10.

*- to qualify for Moment of Clarity, either selected at 2nd level or through the Extra Rage Power feat

2) As mentioned, kineticist fills the "go all day ray specialist" fairly well.

You have proven my point entirely. The fact that you resort to zainy multiclass builds shows that this broad concept is handled poorly by Amy single class. I'm not talking about options for a character who goes into rage, picks up an arcane schoo and eventually learns how to transform. I'm not talking about a woodsman/bomb thrower who can eventually transtorm into animals. I'm looking for an option that lets you transform from level one without many aditonal tacked on mechanics and flavor that goes beyond the theme.


Torbyne wrote:
I am surprised i havent seen this mentioned yet, perhaps i missed it somewhere in the thread already? But what about a moon cursed barbarian? its not an all day shifter but it is enough rounds per day i would think.

This isn't a shifter. It's a barbarian that shifts into animals.

Silver Crusade

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Zolanoteph wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
I am surprised i havent seen this mentioned yet, perhaps i missed it somewhere in the thread already? But what about a moon cursed barbarian? its not an all day shifter but it is enough rounds per day i would think.
This isn't a shifter. It's a barbarian that shifts into animals.

... wut?


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Metamorph Alchemist archetype fills the all-day shapeshifting by 4th or 5th level.

Sovereign Court

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Take a look at the Shifter from Spheres of Power


i agree there needs to be an all day ranged magic user they need to have a medium-long range abilities that do untyped damage kenetisist does not fill that roll unless i have overlooked something that would allow them to have 100-900 range attacks with no burn that do untyped damage

Dark Archive

Mad Alchemist wrote:
Take a look at the Shifter from Spheres of Power

Linkafied that for you, also the Alternation Sphere to go with it.

Huh, fun detail an Aasimar can easily have a Handle Animal of 40 by class level 20 without even trying. A human and gnome on the other hand can actually get an extremely impressive number on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to change a creature’s attitude.


Lady-J, have you looked at Spheres of Power? You can accomplish almost everything you want with just a few Destruction talents.

Not sure if 3rd Party stuff is usable in your group, but it really is a magnificent magic system to check out.


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An egoist (Psychometabolism-specialized psion) makes a nice shapeshifter, especially when using the Transmogrofist(sp) discipline and/or the Metamorph PRC.


Wraithguard wrote:

Lady-J, have you looked at Spheres of Power? You can accomplish almost everything you want with just a few Destruction talents.

Not sure if 3rd Party stuff is usable in your group, but it really is a magnificent magic system to check out.

for the game i play in only content(even paizo content) that is allowed are from the books the dm has access too granted its most of the official paizo stuff with a few 3rd party stuff thrown in like psyonics unleashed.

as for the game i dm i don't allow any 3rd party stuff aside from psyonics unleashed races. still would like a paizo class that has a touch ac attack that scales decently with levels that is untyped damage and would have a spell list of blasty spells and have the ability to lower metamagic costs for said blasty spells while also having the summoners interaction with metamagics were they dont increase the casting time but it would be a 6 level caster instead of 9th


Sounds like an even more OP wizard than normal, even with only 6th level spells.


Azten wrote:
Sounds like an even more OP wizard than normal, even with only 6th level spells.

eh not really with a greatly reduced spell list and working on memorised spells instead of prepared it would have more blasting capabilities than a wizard but that would be about it just like how summoners are better at summoning than wizards are.


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Azten wrote:
Sounds like an even more OP wizard than normal, even with only 6th level spells.

Because as we all know, 1st through 6th level blasting spells are what make the Wizard OP.

...Really bro?


Kineticist has already been mentioned as to #2 but what exactly is a "shifter"? Someone the turns into other people? Well that is literally every class in the entire game once you by a hat of diguise. Monster? Transmutation Wizard or Druid. Shapechange is also something you can get if your GM lets you play a Doppleganger or that race who's name I forget from Eberron. Your going to have to be a lot more specific than "shifter"...


Trojan Flumph wrote:
Kineticist has already been mentioned as to #2 but what exactly is a "shifter"? Someone the turns into other people? Well that is literally every class in the entire game once you by a hat of diguise. Monster? Transmutation Wizard or Druid. Shapechange is also something you can get if your GM lets you play a Doppleganger or that race who's name I forget from Eberron. Your going to have to be a lot more specific than "shifter"...

i think a shifter would be something that gains beast forum,dragon forum,giant forum ect as class features similar to the druids wildshape but be more specialised in it than what other classes can do


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I'd like to see a martial field controller. It would be interesting.


Tyinyk wrote:
I'd like to see a martial field controller. It would be interesting.

archer fighter with the snap shot tree can battle field control to some extent.


Sundakan wrote:
Azten wrote:
Sounds like an even more OP wizard than normal, even with only 6th level spells.

Because as we all know, 1st through 6th level blasting spells are what make the Wizard OP.

...Really bro?

Having seen and played a blasting wizard? Yes, that can do it.


Lady-J wrote:
Tyinyk wrote:
I'd like to see a martial field controller. It would be interesting.
archer fighter with the snap shot tree can battle field control to some extent.

This is true, but I was thinking a full class, that could have numerous fighting styles and builds, and still have a decent measure of battlefield control.


Trojan Flumph wrote:
Kineticist has already been mentioned as to #2 but what exactly is a "shifter"? Someone the turns into other people? Well that is literally every class in the entire game once you by a hat of diguise. Monster? Transmutation Wizard or Druid. Shapechange is also something you can get if your GM lets you play a Doppleganger or that race who's name I forget from Eberron. Your going to have to be a lot more specific than "shifter"...

For me it would be a class that doesn't use spells, and can be effective from first level in and out of combat, using the character's ability to shapeshift/change form/become-something-else as the primary schtick. Not a barbarian (as that is rage) or a druid (as that is "nature connection). It could be only 1 extra form, or it could be lots.


Rysky wrote:
Zolanoteph wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
I am surprised i havent seen this mentioned yet, perhaps i missed it somewhere in the thread already? But what about a moon cursed barbarian? its not an all day shifter but it is enough rounds per day i would think.
This isn't a shifter. It's a barbarian that shifts into animals.
... wut?

Agreed, can you define the difference between a "shifter" and "one who shifts between forms" for me?


A Shifter class for me would have at will transformations, can change into any humanoid at 1st level and gains additional forms of (almost)every creature type as they go up in levels. Is not a spell caster, is effective in and out of combat, has good class skills/skill points. Also gains bonuses and additional abilities while in an any form other then it's own.


Dragon78 wrote:
A Shifter class for me would have at will transformations, can change into any humanoid at 1st level and gains additional forms of (almost)every creature type as they go up in levels. Is not a spell caster, is effective in and out of combat, has good class skills/skill points. Also gains bonuses and additional abilities while in an any form other then it's own.

I like the idea in theory but my immediate concern here is any humanoid includes ridiculously powerful things like trolls and giants. giving regeneration and huge or colossal size at level 1 should be right out. i would argue something closer to X per day alter self is more appropriate as a starting power and what about creatures that have innate SLAs? Once you get shapeshift into a dragon you've gained flight, a bunch of natural attacks and casting as if an X level sorcerer. freely giving out forms doesnt work well for PCs because monsters routinely flaunt the rules used for PCs.


Well any humanoid that alterself can turn into but would gain giant forms later.


Dragon78 wrote:
Well any humanoid that alterself can turn into but would gain giant forms later.

ok, so theory crafting a bit here... the chassis sounds like a 3/4BAB, D8, 4+int skill package.

Lets say all class abilities are (SU) effects that are modeled after these six spells, Alter Self, Beast Shape,Giant Form, Elemental Body, Form of the Dragon and Plant Shape. It could be one single ability that every three or four levels gains the ability to replicate a new spell. There is an neat possibility of making this CON based since we want them to be non spellcasting. So i would go with 1/2level+Con Mod times per day and at some point lower level effects shift to entirely at will. This is the bread and butter of a shifter class.

Another possibility is allowing mix and match so you could effectively be under Giant Form II but also take the an ability listed from Beast Shape I for example.

I would add in a scaling bonus to perception to detect disguises, mundane or magical and at some point they gain immunity to opposed polymorph effects. Since polymorph effects arent extremely common this could be around level 6 or 7

What does that leave? you stat out as a fighter or barbarian, start off with a class ability that lends to some disguise and stealth as well as a small combat boost from the +2 STR in Alter Self. You get some animal shapes around level 3 like an early access Wildshape without the 9th level casting and can go up to large sized giants at... 6? Elemental and Dragon forms come later, maybe between levels 9 and 11. You end up being able to wreck in melee with a two hander and huge STR bonuses, you'd have a lot of defenses from special abilities and natural armor boosts, a decent normal skill list with some situational ability boosts and what ever grab bag of abilities you get from various forms, fly, pounce, scent, swim speed etc. etc.

This is the kind of class being sought after?


Azten wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Azten wrote:
Sounds like an even more OP wizard than normal, even with only 6th level spells.

Because as we all know, 1st through 6th level blasting spells are what make the Wizard OP.

...Really bro?

Having seen and played a blasting wizard? Yes, that can do it.

Are you talking about a blasting Wizard, or a Dazing Fireball wizard?

The former is the weakest way to play any caster. The latter more accurately falls under battlefield control, not blasting. The damage is meaningless, it's making the enemies unable to defend themselvez that has a real effect.


Tyinyk wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Tyinyk wrote:
I'd like to see a martial field controller. It would be interesting.
archer fighter with the snap shot tree can battle field control to some extent.
This is true, but I was thinking a full class, that could have numerous fighting styles and builds, and still have a decent measure of battlefield control.

It's not a new class, but a fighter with Combat Patrol, Stand Still and some CMB bonuses could attempt the job, as alternative to the snap shot route.

If you have the chance to prepare the battlefield, in theory traps laid out by a ranger or rogue might work also.


Lord Mhoram wrote:
Trojan Flumph wrote:
Kineticist has already been mentioned as to #2 but what exactly is a "shifter"? Someone the turns into other people? Well that is literally every class in the entire game once you by a hat of diguise. Monster? Transmutation Wizard or Druid. Shapechange is also something you can get if your GM lets you play a Doppleganger or that race who's name I forget from Eberron. Your going to have to be a lot more specific than "shifter"...
For me it would be a class that doesn't use spells, and can be effective from first level in and out of combat, using the character's ability to shapeshift/change form/become-something-else as the primary schtick. Not a barbarian (as that is rage) or a druid (as that is "nature connection). It could be only 1 extra form, or it could be lots.

This would be something like I would prefer for the class. Give it a fixed low number of form(s) it can shift into at first level whenever it wanted, and broaden the number of forms and additional abilities it can use in said form as it levels up. It would also be easy to spin off a tons of archetypes, such as archetypes that focused into changing into other humanoids, were themed around different groups, etc.

I believe strongly that whenever possible all "major" concepts (of a reasonable power level) should be playable from level 1, and preferably without needing 10 source books and acquiring a ton of class features extraneous to the concept.


Sundakan wrote:
Azten wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Azten wrote:
Sounds like an even more OP wizard than normal, even with only 6th level spells.

Because as we all know, 1st through 6th level blasting spells are what make the Wizard OP.

...Really bro?

Having seen and played a blasting wizard? Yes, that can do it.

Are you talking about a blasting Wizard, or a Dazing Fireball wizard?

The former is the weakest way to play any caster. The latter more accurately falls under battlefield control, not blasting. The damage is meaningless, it's making the enemies unable to defend themselvez that has a real effect.

Blasting. You know what's better than making them unable to defend themselves? Making them dead. You know you're too strong when "suddenly four shadows attack the wizard".


Then your GM needs to stop softballing you, because blasting in itself isn't particularly strong. Even the strongest blasting spell in the game only deals 32d6 damage (average of 112 damage, max of 192. And only that to a single target, dropping to 84/144 against anything in the blast radius).

CR 12 creatures can tank that 9th level spell and ask for more. Meanwhile your equivalent level Barbarian could conceivably deal that 84 damage with 1-2 of his swings.

Blasting is good against fodder, and little else. That's why the Kineticist is such a pitiful class. Less than blaster caster damage, and only single target or small AoE to boot for most of its career.


I'd like a shapeshifting trickster more than a martial shapeshifter, personally. It can (kinda) be done with kitsune, but it'd be nice to have a class.
- Multiple-form shapeshifting, with enough uses to transform casually around level 3.
- Able to copy individuals.
- Some illusion and enchantment spells, possibly with a few curses, spatial spells, and polymorph spells (e.g. Baleful Polymorph) tossed in. Maybe 4/9 casting on 3/4 BAB, plus a way to boost DCs a little?
- Should be able to cast in whatever form without too much trouble.

That'd be my ideal.


Sundakan wrote:
Blasting is good against fodder, and little else. That's why the Kineticist is such a pitiful class. Less than blaster caster damage, and only single target or small AoE to boot for most of its career.

Spoiler:
You and I have clearly had different experiences then, because even the BBEG of an AP(or any book in one) has given my blasters any problem. I find it so strange that letting things live another turn, even if they are unable to do anything, is the better path. To control the flow of battle or end it entirely?

Except you can't "end it entirely". What kind of damage do you think you're dealing that you drop everything in the room in one shot? I have a blaster in my Carrion Crown game and even when they're not enemies equipped with Resist Energy she is rarely able to take down any major enemy in a single blast.

Particularly in APs, where Paizo generally builds their bad guys to have higher defense than anything else (Cap'n Harrigan is a good example, where they made his two highest stats Con and Dex, in that order.).

Just looking at the APs I have run (Skull and Shackles and Carrion Crown) or played in (Runelords and Age of Worms being the ones to get to late game) blasters have had pretty consistent trouble staying relevant.

Even hypercharging your damage makes you AT BEST equivalent to an archer (who himself has not hypercharged for damage, or you wouldn't even be making this match-up). This isn't a difference in experience, it's math. Say you're tossing an Empowered Fireball with Sorcerer (or a dip there-in) to give you +2 damage per die. You are dealing 10d6+20x1.5.

That comes out to 82.5 average damage. At 11th level, your BBEG for Skull and Shackles has 155 HP. He also has a pretty solid chance of passing the Ref save to drop that down to 41 damage because his highest save is Reflex.

Your 4th level spell has managed to take him to half HP, or 3/4.

Another 4th level spell (I'm assuming you took the trait all blasters take, so Empowered is just a +1 adjustment) could deal damage and also a debuff (Boneshatter) or a MASSIVE debuff (Bestow Curse) or any number of other things that guarantee the fight will end faster (because your Pummeling Charge Brawler can 100% FOR SURE deal that 155 damage if you buff his attack bonus or number of attacks or both hint hint) than dealing an overall meh amount of damage to anything that isn't 3-4 CR lower than where you are now.


Sundakan wrote:

Except you can't "end it entirely". What kind of damage do you think you're dealing that you drop everything in the room in one shot? I have a blaster in my Carrion Crown game and even when they're not enemies equipped with Resist Energy she is rarely able to take down any major enemy in a single blast.

Particularly in APs, where Paizo generally builds their bad guys to have higher defense than anything else (Cap'n Harrigan is a good example, where they made his two highest stats Con and Dex, in that order.).

Just looking at the APs I have run (Skull and Shackles and Carrion Crown) or played in (Runelords and Age of Worms being the ones to get to late game) blasters have had pretty consistent trouble staying relevant.

Even hypercharging your damage makes you AT BEST equivalent to an archer (who himself has not hypercharged for damage, or you wouldn't even be making this match-up). This isn't a difference in experience, it's math. Say you're tossing an Empowered Fireball with Sorcerer (or a dip there-in) to give you +2 damage per die. You are dealing 10d6+20x1.5.

That comes out to 82.5 average damage. At 11th level, your BBEG for Skull and Shackles has 155 HP. He also has a pretty solid chance of passing the Ref save to drop that down to 41 damage because his highest save is Reflex.

Your 4th level spell has managed to take him to half HP, or 3/4.

Another 4th level spell (I'm assuming you took the trait all blasters take, so Empowered is just a +1 adjustment) could deal damage and also a debuff (Boneshatter) or a MASSIVE debuff (Bestow Curse) or any number of other things that guarantee the fight will end faster (because your Pummeling Charge Brawler can 100% FOR SURE deal that 155 damage if you buff his attack bonus or number of attacks or both hint hint) than dealing an overall meh amount of damage to anything that isn't 3-4 CR lower than where you are now.

dont forget the 1st boss in the iron gods campaign which is basically a big screw you casters boss with dr5/slashing and magic imuinity to electricity and cold with fire and acid resist 10 immunity to magic missile and undead immunities


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There is an archetype for rangers called the Shapeshifter, that allows them to take on some of the features of an animal. The Wild Hunter is a very similar archetype, allowing them to use the hunter's animal focus. Both of those are compatible with archetypes like Skirmisher which replace spells, allowing you to do some shifting as a non-spellcasting class. There are always plain hunters as well, or, even more of a shifter, their Feral Hunter archetype. It removes the animal companion for better animal focus, and eventually wild shape. Hunters get animal focus at level one, so that allows you to do some basic shifting as early as possible.


You are also missing the "everyman" class. The everyday person, like Arthur Dent, Alice in Wonderland, or Dorothy Gale, who somehow get involved in extraordinary things.

Arthur has no special powers. He's useless in combat. He can't disarm traps. He isn't good at stealth and probably could not sneak attack anybody. How would you make somebody like Arthur, Alice, or Dorothy?

Dragonlance and Star Wars had a noble class that came close but nothing like it exists in Pathfinder.


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darth_borehd wrote:

You are also missing the "everyman" class. The everyday person, like Arthur Dent, Alice in Wonderland, or Dorothy Gale, who somehow get involved in extraordinary things.

Arthur has no special powers. He's useless in combat. He can't disarm traps. He isn't good at stealth and probably could not sneak attack anybody. How would you make somebody like Arthur, Alice, or Dorothy?

Dragonlance and Star Wars had a noble class that came close but nothing like it exists in Pathfinder.

You mean chained rogues?

Ba-dump-psss

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