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I'm preparing a new homebrew 5E campaign, and I have an idea for character creation.
See, something I've noticed is that, due to bounded accuracy and such, PCs don't have to be exactly the same level to still function together. A mixed-level party, as long as the gap isn't huge, seems to be able to get by without too many issues (or so it seems in my limited experience).
This got me thinking about past discussions I've heard about making characters feel "organic" and I had an idea.
Suppose that at character creation, everybody brings a 2nd-level character with an XP total of, say, 500. Then, everybody rolls percentiles and consults a chart I would prepare ahead of time. Depending on the roll, they would get some mix of gear and/or XP. At the extreme ends, they might get no extra gear but enough XP to almost/barely crack 4th level, or get no additional XP but get one rare magic item . Most rolls would result in XP landing you somewhere in 3rd level along with one uncommon magic item and/or some gold for upgrading starting equipment.
My thinking is that perhaps gaps in XP could be bridged with starting magic items/gear, so that everyone could feel different without anyone being relegated to "sidekick" status.
In my head, it sounds kinda cool. But I figure I should check it with other people's heads before I act on it. ;)
What do you all think?
I think it would work with one or two anomalous moments.
I seeems to me that reaching third level (and choosing your archetype) is a significant qualitative change that might rankle (albeit not for very long) for those on the weaker end of the divide.
Of more significance, I think is the fifth level "jump" in power. I suspect that the second attack, scaled up cantrips and access to third level spells will seem like a significant boost to those who reach that level first (although I think the additional point of proficiency will not).
Having said that, it wouldn't bother me. I'd love to play in a game like that (I prefer starting my PCs at 1st level, regardless of the rest of the party when the system doesn't make that impossible - maybe 3rd level in a game like 5E with "apprenticeship levels"). It could potentially be irksome for some though, given the human tendency to take what we've got for granted (so the low level PC may well just get used to the fact they have a super-weapon, whilst grousing about the poorer equipped PC's multiple attacks).
FWIW, our group is currently trialling something conceptually similar (or at least conceptually related).
We ran through Curse of the Crimson Throne on a super-accelerated rate of levelling (they reached 20th level right at the start of book 6) with very little magical loot.
Now we're running Rise of the Runelords at a much slower rate of growth (they're level five at the start of book three, with a plan to cap out at 11th level for most of book six) but instead they're finding loads of randomised weapons, armor and magic items.
Our experiment is to see whether PCs can be beefed up with magic in lieu of character abilities.
I think the biggest difference between characters would be hit points. So, the highest level person should probably walk in front of everyone else.
Instead of rolling and percentiles, why not just give the option of, say, a level 2 character with a rare magical item, a level 3 character with an uncommon magical item, or a level 4 character with only a common magical item? Eliminate the randomness, and let people pick what they prefer from a short list (similar to the Priority system of character gen in Shadowrun).
I can tell you from personal experience, my 13th level cleric got "punished by my deity" and lost a level, I was extremely bitter about it, especially since I didn't do anything to violate my deity's orthodox. I would have quit the campaign if it wasn't the second to last session of it, and only so I wouldn't screw over my fellow players.
So I would suggest being very clear with players about what's going on. Emphasize the randomness of the character creation process, and also that you are not purposely punishing anyone.
We just played a random-ish 7th level session, and the lack of magic weapons against opponents with Resistance to non-magical b/p/s was pretty much not a factor.
My half-elf urchin rogue (thief)
A human paladin (oath of the ancients, protection)
An elf warlock (pact of the archfey, boon of the chain)
An aasimar (I think) Light cleric (exactly like Melisandre from GoT!)
A Halfling monk (Way of Shadows)
A human fighter (battlemaster, 2 weapon fighting)
I think the paladin began the adventure with a magic sword, and the monk's fists of fury are considered magical. The battlemaster earned a +1 longsword during the adventure.
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I can tell you from personal experience, my 13th level cleric got "punished by my deity" and lost a level, I was extremely bitter about it, especially since I didn't do anything to violate my deity's orthodox. I would have quit the campaign if it wasn't the second to last session of it, and only so I wouldn't screw over my fellow players.
So I would suggest being very clear with players about what's going on. Emphasize the randomness of the character creation process, and also that you are not purposely punishing anyone.
Oh, it's definitely very clear in the Recruitment thread that this is what I'm doing. Definitely not springing it on them out of nowhere.
Also, like I said, everyone is getting some variation on a gold/XP/loot mix. It's not like everybody's gonna be different levels but with all else equal. If you have less XP, that means you have more gold and/or a better magic item. If you have less loot, that means you have more XP. So, not quite the same as just randomly losing a level. :)
What CRs do you plan on using? I know a lot of CR 1 creatures have attacks that can potentially kill a 1st to 3rd PC in one shot (especially the more squishy kind). CR 2 or 3 vs. a level 1 PC with a +2 sword might kill him in one blow before he gets a chance to swing it.
Spreading out levels after 5th seems more plausible to me.
A magic item is almost never going to be as good as whole level. Maybe if it's very powerful, and then it can make things swingy, especially with Bounded Accuracy.
It's definitely going to be interesting.
My personal bias is against this, different level/wealth just doesn't appeal.
For balance, I think it'll be hard to gauge how well it works out. Some items add more power than others. Will lower level characters level faster? Will new magic items go to those without any?
At face value, I'd prefer the higher level, except maybe if I got to choose the magic item.
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What CRs do you plan on using? I know a lot of CR 1 creatures have attacks that can potentially kill a 1st to 3rd PC in one shot (especially the more squishy kind). CR 2 or 3 vs. a level 1 PC with a +2 sword might kill him in one blow before he gets a chance to swing it.
Spreading out levels after 5th seems more plausible to me.
A magic item is almost never going to be as good as whole level. Maybe if it's very powerful, and then it can make things swingy, especially with Bounded Accuracy.
It's definitely going to be interesting.
I use 100% homebrew monsters. So, that probably helps. :)
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My personal bias is against this, different level/wealth just doesn't appeal.
I feel the same way in Pathfinder, but 5E has me curious to see how it can do. I've already seen differing levels in action, and it worked pretty smoothly, so I'm optimistic.
For balance, I think it'll be hard to gauge how well it works out. Some items add more power than others.
Hence my hand-picking of items, as well as varying mixes of XP/gold to go along with the items. So, for instance, the person who gets a driftglobe will get more additional compensation than someone who gets a ring of protection.
Will lower level characters level faster?
I'll be using the normal 5E XP track, which means that leveling is very rapid until you hit 3rd, then it slows down a bit.
Will new magic items go to those without any?
New magic items will be distributed/used as the party sees fit. This should further assist in practical balance.
I'll be sure to come back and give updates on how this is going.
FOR SCIENCE!
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From my experience from parties having different levels within them, it can become quickly "let the higher levels do the work."
Was this experience of yours in 5E? Pathfinder? Something else?
EDIT: Also, was it at high levels, low levels, mid levels? All of the above? How big was the gap? Was there any compensation for the lower-leveled PCs?
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5E and low levels. If you want to know more, it was Adventure League module Mines of Phandelver(or something spelled like that). Maybe a 1st to 3rd-4th. 3 and myself being 1st, while the other being the higher.
Thanks, the details help.
Fortunately, there won't be any 1st-level PCs in my campaign, and the difference between 1st and 2nd is pretty huge.
Also, I had completely forgotten about Adventurer's League games when thinking of my past experience with different-level PCs; I'm actually in a game right now (via PbP) in which I'm playing the only 3rd-level PC. There's I think one 2nd-level PC (maybe two?) and everyone else in the party of seven is not just 1st-level, but brand-spanking-new. And it's gone smoothly enough so far that I had actually completely forgotten there was a level disparity.
What level was the higher-level PC in your game? Do you remember?
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If anybody's inclined to give feedback, this is the first draft of the chart I'm thinking of using when the game starts. Note that PCs start with 500XP (so, partway into 2nd level) and starting gear by class/background.
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Prototype Chart: 1d100
01-04 - XP: —; Gold: 1d4x10; Item: Amulet of health
05-08 - XP: 1d6x50; Gold: 2d4x10; Item: Cape of the mountebank
09-13 - XP: 3d6x50; Gold: 2d4x10; Item: Ring of protection
14-18 - XP: 3d6x50; Gold: 2d4x10; Item: Gem of brightness (5d6+10 charges)
19-23 - XP: 3d6x50; Gold: 2d4x10; Item: Javelin of lightning
24-29 - XP: 5d6x50; Gold: 4d6x10; Item: Gloves of missile snaring
30-35 - XP: 5d6x50; Gold: 4d6x10; Item: Slippers of spider climbing
36-41 - XP: 5d6x50+250; Gold: 4d6x10; Item: Ring of resistance (random)
42-48 - XP: 5d6x50+250; Gold: 4d6x10; Item: Periapt of proof against poison
49-55 - XP: 5d6x50+500; Gold: 4d4x25; Item: Brooch of shielding
56-64 - XP: 5d6x50+500; Gold: 4d4x25; Item: Bag of holding
65-71 - XP: 5d6x50+500; Gold: 3d6x25; Item: Necklace of adaptation
72-78 - XP: 5d6x50+750; Gold: 3d6x25; Item: Cloak of the manta ray
79-84 - XP: 5d6x50+750; Gold: 4d6x25; Item: Boots of speed
85-90 - XP: 5d6x50+1,000; Gold: 4d6x25; Item: Gloves of swimming and climbing
91-96 - XP: 5d6x50+1,000; Gold: 4d6x25; Item: Driftglobe
97-00 - XP: 5d6x50+1,500; Gold: 3d6x50; Item: —
Amulet of Health is one of those items that makes a huge difference if you know you've got it before you build your character.
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Amulet of Health is one of those items that makes a huge difference if you know you've got it before you build your character.
To some degree, yes, but not nearly as much as with the other stats. In 5E it's basically assumed that your primary stat (which is something other than CON) has a +3 modifier, so an item equivalent to AoH for a primary stat is only going to be a difference of +1, or completely worthless if you find it at 4th level or later. But with CON, it's my experience that folks tend to start with a modifier of +0, +1, or maybe +2; and then they leave it there for a great many levels. Thus, AoH will have a noticeable impact on almost any character prior to about 12th level or so.
If I knew I was starting with it, I'd definitely roll a Barbarian.
My hill dwarf Life cleric 14's only feat is Resilient (Con), which brought his Con to 16 AND gave him proficiency in Con saves, which are real common for spellcasters, and just in general.
It lacks a bit of flash, but it was a solid decision I never regretted.
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Actually, your first two rolls there do hit 4th level, since everyone starts with 500XP.
So that first roll puts you at 2850xp, which is just into 4th level, along with 350gp and the very minor gloves of swimming and climbing.
The second roll puts you at 3100xp, just a bit further into 4th level, with 425gp and the slightly-cooler-than-a-torch driftglobe.
Your third roll lands at 2650xp, basically one solid encounter short of hitting 4th level, along with 325gp and a maybe-useful cloak of the manta ray.
Of course, your rolls were all at the high end. Let's see what I get for the other half of a hypothetical party:
= 300XP
= 80gp
This person is going to have to face an encounter or two at 2nd level, but they get 1/day get-out-of-deep-crap via the cape of the mountebank, which should increase their survivability for now and increase their utility for their whole career.
= 1050xp
= 160gp
This person lands a little ways into 3rd level, with probably a few days of adventuring before catching up to your 4th-level folks. But he's compensated with gloves of missile snaring, basically a bottomless well of damage soak against anyone trying to pincushion him from a distance.
= 950xp
= 100gp
With some spectacularly terrible rolls, this final party member gets just a hair less XP and gold than the guy with the defensive gloves, but not by much, and he's still the same level. He also gets a necklace of adaptation, which could be a lifesaver in the right situation, and still helpful now and then otherwise.
So if we put your three rolls and my three rolls together to form a party, we've got PCs ranging from 2nd to 4th level with items as disparate as light sources and free teleportation.
Do you think it needs to be more variable than that?
Your table looks reasonable to me. (I was initially surprised that you tied GP to experience, rather than making characters wealthy in gold and magic together, but I think it's a good choice).
If you had the inclination, I think giving a choice of items at each tier would be superior - to minimise the risk of a player getting something they have no interest at all in.
I'd be curious whether you'd allow a 'rebuild' in certain circumstances? I played a mountain dwarf abjuration wizard with an 18 con at 1st level (I think - it might have been a 17). The amulet of life wouldn't feel like a windfall. Although, I suppose if your world provides relatively easy ability to trade in magic items that might not be a drama.
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If you had the inclination, I think giving a choice of items at each tier would be superior - to minimise the risk of a player getting something they have no interest at all in.
I actually thought about having at least some of the rolls result in a choice between, say, a +1 weapon or a +1 wand, in order to accommodate different types of characters. However, I eventually decided to instead just make sure that every item is usable by nearly any character. That way, we maintain the chance-based "organic" feel of this campaign while also not screwing anybody over with a useful-for-anyone-but-me item.
I'd be curious whether you'd allow a 'rebuild' in certain circumstances? I played a mountain dwarf abjuration wizard with an 18 con at 1st level (I think - it might have been a 17). The amulet of life wouldn't feel like a windfall. Although, I suppose if your world provides relatively easy ability to trade in magic items that might not be a drama.
I don't think I've seen any applicants with a CON higher than 14, and most seem to be around 12. However, if I did run into an issue like that, I'd probably just do a re-roll on the chart.
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Jiggy, I had already added the 500 XP :p
17*50+1000+500 = 2350XP
Whoops, I didn't check your math and just assumed. My bad.
It's actually a 0.08% chance someone rolling between 72-84 will reach level 4, a 5.88% chance that someone rolling between 85-96 would be able to be level 4, and a 84.80% chance if they rolled between 97-100.
If I had a recommendation I might add a single more d6 to the rolled pool for each tier which makes it a 0.06% chance for 49-71, a 3.59% chance for 72-84, 27.94% for 85-96, and 96.41% chance for 97-100.
Why do I want it to be more likely for folks to start at 4th level? The goal was a bell curve that's centered on 3rd level, with only the fringes reaching above or below.
I'd be curious whether you'd allow a 'rebuild' in certain circumstances? I played a mountain dwarf abjuration wizard with an 18 con at 1st level (I think - it might have been a 17). The amulet of life wouldn't feel like a windfall. Although, I suppose if your world provides relatively easy ability to trade in magic items that might not be a drama.I don't think I've seen any applicants with a CON higher than 14, and most seem to be around 12. However, if I did run into an issue like that, I'd probably just do a re-roll on the chart.
Yeah, that'd be a good solution. I'm peculiar in that I roll stats in order and choose my class afterwards. My experience as DM is similar to yours, the only time I've seen someone really prioritise CON was one guy who built a barbarian with a plan to making him a tank - basically a massive 'hit point sponge'.
Thinking about it more generally, I guess those super-specialised characters are likely to be the only ones at risk of being truly 'penalised' by a sub-optimal item, but suboptimal items and not-quite-so-super-specialised characters is kind of another thing people mean by "organic" so perhaps that's just things working as intended.
I just got done playing a relatively generic hill dwarf cleric of Life (Desna). I used the Standard Array for my stats, max hp at 1st level, and the average hit points for levels 2-14.
He was a big hit point sponge and had a great AC, especially after 3rd or 4th level when he could afford full plate.
Ideally, he would have gotten some AC-enhancing items, saving throw-enhancing items, and definitely healing-enhancing items.
Instead, he got a ring of swimming, a medusa mask (helps on visual saves, petrifies 1/day), and Belt of Frost Giant Strength (or whatever 23 is!). He also eventually got a +1 full plate, +1 shield, and +1 warhammer.
This gave him a really good exploration item, a neat trump card ability, and then a way to hit as hard as the fighter and barbarian, if not as many times per round.
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Why do I want it to be more likely for folks to start at 4th level? The goal was a bell curve that's centered on 3rd level, with only the fringes reaching above or below.It would still be the fringe case - you would have around a 4% chance to be 4th level instead of a <1% chance (if my math is right).
I think your math might be off. You have a 4% chance of rolling the last option on the chart, and once you're there, you have a better-than-even chance of rolling enough XP to hit 4th level. So even if we round down, we're looking at a 2% chance of hitting 4th, before we even get to the possibility of rolling high on a different table entry.
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Well, somebody got the "0XP and an amulet of health" option. It was a dragonborn sorcerer with 13 CON. I think they seem satisfied. :)
Everyone else landed in various parts of 3rd level, with the highest being someone whose final XP total was 2300 (so just a few encounters from 4th level) with gloves of swimming and climbing.
We'll see how this goes!
What rate are you handing out magic?
I wonder if it will matter to anyone, as the significance of the "experience gap" narrows but the "wealth gap" remains. (It seems to me that in a low-magic world the wealth gap will remain significant, whereas in a high-magic world the wealth gap will also become irrelevant).
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What rate are you handing out magic?
I wonder if it will matter to anyone, as the significance of the "experience gap" narrows but the "wealth gap" remains. (It seems to me that in a low-magic world the wealth gap will remain significant, whereas in a high-magic world the wealth gap will also become irrelevant).
Thus far, there have been no additional magic items beyond what folks started with. There will be more later, though.