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More specifically, for the purposes of the Brawler ability, Close Weapon Mastery, what is a close weapon?
I ask because I am building a character to specialize in close quarters fighting with a Dagger and Unarmed Strikes and am confused that Dagger is not included on the Close Weapon Group for Fighters. In almost every fighting style I've studied, the dagger/knife is used as the most common close quarters weapon available.
What considerations were made in forming the list? Weight? Close quarters viability? Fiat?
What considerations were made in forming the list? Weight? Close quarters viability? Fiat?
I doubt it was anything less arbitrary then pulling names out of a hate. Maybe if they had included some guidelines of how to fit weapons into fighter weapon groups with the custom weapon creation rules, there could be some possible insight.
Wasn't the close group added in UC? So when the core book was written the only group to daggers in was light blades?
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There was a Paizo blog that added several weapons to the close group. Also pick up some wooden stakes for your brawler as they are close weapons that can be thrown.
Don't try to hard to ferret out the logic to this, chakram, scythe and longsword are in the same group (heavy blade) after all....
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The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.
The point here is to have a weapon that is easy to conceal and synergizes with the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training ability. Basically, an assassin. The build hinges on the ability to use specialized daggers for assassination. The weapons of the Close Weapon Group just don't fit the bill for what I want to do.
Also, Daggers can be used in a grapple which is the primary reason for taking the brawler levels.
Essentially, a martial artist/spy/assassin type.
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The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.The point here is to have a weapon that is easy to conceal and synergizes with the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training ability. Basically, an assassin. The build hinges on the ability to use specialized daggers for assassination. The weapons of the Close Weapon Group just don't fit the bill for what I want to do.
Also, Daggers can be used in a grapple which is the primary reason for taking the brawler levels.
Essentially, a martial artist/spy/assassin type.
Punching Dagger as suggested is probably the best analogue.
The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.The point here is to have a weapon that is easy to conceal and synergizes with the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training ability. Basically, an assassin. The build hinges on the ability to use specialized daggers for assassination. The weapons of the Close Weapon Group just don't fit the bill for what I want to do.
Also, Daggers can be used in a grapple which is the primary reason for taking the brawler levels.
Essentially, a martial artist/spy/assassin type.
then grab punching daggers. One specific interpretation of those, T-handle knives/push daggers are specifically banned in a lot of places because of how sneaky they can be.
This is due to the fact that one can easily paint them black to make them harder to see in a smoky bar kind of setting. Since the movement to attack with them is the exact same as a punch, people often do not realize that you are armed and just think you are punching (thus, they are more willing to just take the hit).
One good punch to the throat/heart area, and it could be finished before anyone even realized it had begun.
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There's also the fact that the design virtually eliminates any "non-violent" use for punch-daggers. Most parallel-handled knives are useful as tools. That one is very much designed as a surprise weapon and nothing else.
Many jurisdictions, including the one I live in, take intent into account when determining whether something is a weapon. The punch-dagger doesn't really leave any wiggle room.
The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades.
Wasn't the close group added in UC? So when the core book was written the only group to daggers in was light blades?
There are a few weapons that belong to multiple weapon groups. The rules even cover instances of a weapon being in multiple groups.
The dagger having been in a different group does not prevent it from having been added to the close weapons group. So it's still possible Paizo made a conscientious decision.
The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades.Wasn't the close group added in UC? So when the core book was written the only group to daggers in was light blades?There are a few weapons that belong to multiple weapon groups. The rules even cover instances of a weapon being in multiple groups.
The dagger having been in a different group does not prevent it from having been added to the close weapons group. So it's still possible Paizo made a conscientious decision.
This - Blade Boot and Bayonet even have the distinction of being in both close and light blades...
Whether the dagger's omission is oversight or deliberate I guess we will never know.
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Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.
It's probably because it's P or S for damage type. If you look, the close weapon group is all P or B weapons, and none have S damage. I will also note that the Dagger is already in the Thrown Weapon Group and the Light Blade Weapon Group, weapons don't normally appear in more than two groups.
The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades.Wasn't the close group added in UC? So when the core book was written the only group to daggers in was light blades?There are a few weapons that belong to multiple weapon groups. The rules even cover instances of a weapon being in multiple groups.
The dagger having been in a different group does not prevent it from having been added to the close weapons group. So it's still possible Paizo made a conscientious decision.
A. But how many groups can a weapon be in? Because they are also in the throwing weapon group. I am half remembering possible design principle (So take this with a grain of salt)- maybe weapons can't be in more than 2 groups? A limit of 2 seems like enough of a concession for the more general 'well, I think it should be an X', while still keeping up restrictions.
B. do daggers need to be in close weapons? Close weapons seems to be a mish mash of somewhat awkward, short blunt and piercing weapons, for the most part. And even with that, outside of fist weapons, it mostly seems to be made up of crude tackling and 'shanking' weapons. 'Close' seems more like... a 'as close as we can get' name for the group.
Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.It's probably because it's P or S for damage type. If you look, the close weapon group is all P or B weapons, and none have S damage. I will also note that the Dagger is already in the Thrown Weapon Group and the Light Blade Weapon Group, weapons don't normally appear in more than two groups.
A maximum of two does seem to be the norm. The Deer Horn Knife may be the record holder at three: light blades, monk, and thrown.
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A maximum of two does seem to be the norm. The Deer Horn Knife may be the record holder at three: light blades, monk, and thrown.Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.It's probably because it's P or S for damage type. If you look, the close weapon group is all P or B weapons, and none have S damage. I will also note that the Dagger is already in the Thrown Weapon Group and the Light Blade Weapon Group, weapons don't normally appear in more than two groups.
What book is that Deer Horn Knife from?
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What book is that Deer Horn Knife from?A maximum of two does seem to be the norm. The Deer Horn Knife may be the record holder at three: light blades, monk, and thrown.Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.It's probably because it's P or S for damage type. If you look, the close weapon group is all P or B weapons, and none have S damage. I will also note that the Dagger is already in the Thrown Weapon Group and the Light Blade Weapon Group, weapons don't normally appear in more than two groups.
It is from melee tactics toolbox
The close weapon is the fighters weapon group. Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.The point here is to have a weapon that is easy to conceal and synergizes with the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training ability. Basically, an assassin. The build hinges on the ability to use specialized daggers for assassination. The weapons of the Close Weapon Group just don't fit the bill for what I want to do.
Also, Daggers can be used in a grapple which is the primary reason for taking the brawler levels.
Essentially, a martial artist/spy/assassin type.
Black Asp UnMonk doesn't need weapons :3
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A maximum of two does seem to be the norm. The Deer Horn Knife may be the record holder at three: light blades, monk, and thrown.Why it doesn't include daggers is probably because they wanted the dagger in light blades. You could go with a punch dagger cestus.It's probably because it's P or S for damage type. If you look, the close weapon group is all P or B weapons, and none have S damage. I will also note that the Dagger is already in the Thrown Weapon Group and the Light Blade Weapon Group, weapons don't normally appear in more than two groups.
Got home and checked my weapons spreadsheet. There are actually a number of weapons that belong to three Fighter Weapon Groups.
Chain Spear: double, flails, and spears
Chakram: heavy blades, light blades, and thrown
Deer Horn Knife: light blades, monk, and thrown
Double-Chained Kama: double, flails, and monk
Kusarigama: double, flails, and monk
Tiger Fork: monk, polearms, and spears
Monk's Spade: double, monk, and polearms
Unarmed Strike: close, monk, and natural
Wushu Dart: close, monk, and thrown
Ignoring unarmed strikes (which usually get special treatment in general), most of those seem like weird monk things. The majority appear to be exotic weapons. And most of the weapons seem to be from ultimate equipment or later.
Heck, only two of those have groups that do not include monk. For the other two: The chain spear is a weird combo weapon, so that can be written off. Chakram are still unexplained (both a heavy and light blade???)
So overall: these are outliers in a LOT of ways compared to the simple dagger. The general principle of 'only two' still mostly stands, since each of those has some weird definition problem that mostly involves the fact that they are also monk weapons. And ignoring the chakram's confused identity, most of them have better claims to their groups than the dagger has to close weapons (which mostly focuses on tacklings or shanking actions, rather than more fluid cut and thrust seen with daggers).
Ignoring unarmed strikes (which usually get special treatment in general), most of those seem like weird monk things. The majority appear to be exotic weapons. And most of the weapons seem to be from ultimate equipment or later.
Heck, only two of those have groups that do not include monk. For the other two: The chain spear is a weird combo weapon, so that can be written off. Chakram are still unexplained (both a heavy and light blade???)
So overall: these are outliers in a LOT of ways compared to the simple dagger. The general principle of 'only two' still mostly stands, since each of those has some weird definition problem that mostly involves the fact that they are also monk weapons. And ignoring the chakram's confused identity, most of them have better claims to their groups than the dagger has to close weapons (which mostly focuses on tacklings or shanking actions, rather than more fluid cut and thrust seen with daggers).
Agreed. I wasn't listing them to support an argument of any kind. I was just surprised that there were so many and wanted to correct my earlier post.
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I will add that there is another weapon group, the Pirate Weapon Group, which is exclusive to the Corsair archetype from Pirates of the Inner Sea. The Pirate Weapon Group includes: Dagger, crossbow, cutlass, hook hand, rapier, and short sword.
I assume the crossbow referenced is the light or hand crossbow, but it really doesn't say.