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The more and more that I've heard about Order of the Torrent, the more that I want to build an Undine Order of the Torrent Hellknight Signifier.
What I already know about Bubbles.
She's law-abiding, cheerful, and has the geniekin racial trait of mostly human. Mom was an Undine from one of the floating Undine fishing communities near the Port of Kintargo. Dad was a Hellknight from the Order of the Torrent, and Bubbles idolizes him. Before committing to the path of the Hellknight, mom wants Bubbles to see a bit more of the world. Hence, she's convinced Bubbles to become a Pathfinder Agent like her cousin Nixie.
Unlike Nixie, Bubbles has some experience with the human world already. She is also lawful good, and very much a believer in the ability of order and law as a force for civilization. Her god would be Irori, a god of law and self-betterment, and the god that I personally like best of the five deities of the Chelaxian Godclaw. Mechanically, this also opens up the Irori religious traits and deific obedience, which could be strong options.
Bubbles will be paired with my boyfriend's Paladin of Erastil on PFS Adventures
I know I want Bubbles to be a Hellknight Signifier, which means some kind of spellcaster. I also need her to bring skills, because Bret's paladin will not have many at all.
I have been toying with the idea of either an Archer Inquisitor or a Shaman. I have played neither before, and am looking for help in putting together mechanics and flavor. I'd like some versatility in what I bring to the table.
The Inquisitor Option:
Inquisitors have good skills, and some abilities that would tie right into an investigative hellknight. My one concern with the Inquisitor is that it wll be a hammer, bringing primarily ranged melee to the table's combat abilities. The inquisitor spell list does not bring much for Battlefield Control or Buffing of others. Since Bret's character will also be a hammer, would we be bringing too much of the same thing to a PFS table?
The Shaman Option:
Also wisdom-based, a shaman could be an interesting option here. The mostly human trait could let me grab spells from the cleric list to augment spellcasting. Misfortune Hex could be very interesting as battlefield control. I'm looking at Lore Spirit, and that looks horribly, horribly mad. If I built this, could I have anything in the way of physical stats at all, or would all my points go to wisdom, charisma, and int? Is it possible to make a strong and useful shaman without resorting to the overpowered slumber hex? I don't want to steal the fun from my table.
Order of the Torrent
Symbol: twisted, armored eel
Headquarters: Citadel Vaull, Kintargo
Leader: Lictor Octavio Sabinus (LG male human fighter 5/HellknightISWG 3)
Members: constables, detectives, negotiators
Armor Features: aquatic themes with fin-shaped flourishes
Favored Weapon: halberd or longbow
Reckoning: suffer simulated drowning or extreme holding of the breath
Analogous Order: ScourgeThe Order of the Torrent formed in the wake of the Chelish Civil War after its founder, Hellknight of the Scourge Reya Naulvaneti, rescued the abducted son of Kintargo's lord-mayor. The widely publicized crime precipitated a rise in copycat abductions, leading many to turn to the Order of the Scourge for aid. As a result, the Order of the Scourge promoted Naulvaneti to maralictor of her own abduction-focused taskforce, training and operating out of Kintargo. Naulvaneti proved to be a strict, unforgiving instructor, but she and her students got results. After a decade of renowned successes throughout the Inner Sea region, Naulvaneti was instructed to forge her followers into a new Hellknight order, the Order of the Torrent.
Today, the Order of the Torrent is mostly made up of lawful good members who can be found scattered across Avistan, where they doggedly hunt kidnappers and those who have been taken. Yet, while the order has been successful in its meticulous work and has a sterling reputation, it has hardly flourished. The balance between adhering to the Measure and the Chain while remaining flexible enough to negotiate with criminals creates an irreconcilable conundrum for many Hellknights of the Torrent—especially in the wake of a lengthy training process that focuses on psychology and deduction.
The most successful Hellknights of the Torrent focus on recovery first and punishment later, as they refuse to accept innocent losses in the name of peace. Members of the Order of the Torrent might also be called in by Hellknights of other orders when dealing with sensitive cases of abduction. Those who waver or fail due to their own misjudgments are expelled, and most never dare to show their faces in front of the order's leaders again. As a result, the order's ranks number fewer than 30. Those who prove successful negotiators often have the opportunity to assert their skills in the field, stalking abductors and assuring that they never have the opportunity to extort and terrorize again.
TL/DR Version: A Hellknight Order with no evil members and an aquatic theme devoted to search and rescue.
Suggestions on which way to go and the best way to spin this character? All would be appreciated.
Hmm
Just had to pop in here to fave the name.
The problem with going Inquisitor into Hellknight is that it is a 6/9 caster, and most of the class abilities other than spellcasting that 6/9 spellcasters depend upon do not get progressed by prestige classes. Hellknight Signifer does partially progress Inquisitions, but then it also partially progresses Domains, and does this without regard for whether your base class spellcasting was 6/9 or 9/9. So as you go up in levels, you get relatively weaker compared to a 9/9 spellcaster who entered the prestige class. This is a problem in common with almost all prestige classes that progress spellcasting at all, even those written after 6/9 spellcasters other than Bard became a thing.
The 9/9 spellcasters that are more dependent upon class features other than spellcasting (Arcanist, Druid, Shaman, and Witch) have the same problem to a lesser extent, but at least they get the full benefit of "+1 level of existing spellcasting class".
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You are on the button for inquisitor. Inquisitor spell DC's do not hold up over time and (from my experience) they are best suited for self buffs in the first few rounds of combat. Inquisitor will also slow down your path to signifer (casting 3rd lvls at 7) and you'll miss out on some of the higher level benefits (second judgment, less bane rounds, stalwart, etc.). Archery is VERY feat intensive, keep that in mind when you need to take warrior-priest as a feat at 7, forcing you to juggle between other ranged feats once BAB 6 opens up clustered shots and multishot for you at lvl 9. As a result, I do not recommend an archer inquisitor for this build.
Shaman, on the other hand, fits better with your plan. You would get 3rd level spells at lvl 5 and would be able to transition into your prestige class earlier. Misfortune is probably the most effective hex in the game (yeah I said it, cry your heart out slumber-nerds) especially when paired with accursed hex and cackle. Crowd control spells are going to be much more efficient on the shaman (sleep, hold person, deep slumber, blindness/deafness, wind wall, stinking cloud). You can also get cool flavor for your aquatic theme with fins to feet! Keep in mind that after lvl 4 you can switch to whatever spirit you want when preparing your spells.
Stat priority for a control shaman should be wis > dex/con > int/cha > str. Consider taking spell focus if you really want to bump your DC's. If you're skill hungry you can always take the skill point for favored class over the HP. With 12 int you'd be bumping yourself to 6 ranks/lvl (assuming FC bonus). If there are any skills you want max ranks in but won't need until later (*ahem* fly/escape artist) you can always consider buying an int ioun stone at higher levels.
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@UnArcaneElection:
Thanks! Names are a crucial part of character creation for me.
Yeah, I keep thinking that an evangelist cleric may be my strongest option for both the signifier chassis and for bringing useful in-combat options. However, the skills are atrocious, and the inspire courage would stop progressing after I took Hellknight levels, forever frozen at +2 to attack and damage.
It might be possible to build something useful off a Herald Caller, but that would involve lots of summoning... I'd have to create a ton of summon monster cards in advance to not slow down gameplay. Still, at four skill points a level, it at least can cover some skills!
A cloistered cleric does not fit the concept at all, though it would be good with skills, the hit to spells would be hard to justify and the flavor is all wrong for PFS. Why would this person ever explore, much less become a Hellknight?
A vanilla cleric might work best, but the skills... Ugh. We're back to rotten skillpoints.
@Jakuri:
So you think that a non-slumber Shaman could be viable? How would you build one? I love your spell and hex suggestions. Very helpful!
Hmm
EDITED to ADD: I think what I want most out of Hellknight is the flavor. Would it be horrible if I only took one level of the Hellknight Signifier prestige class so that I can continue getting goodies from Shaman (additional hexes, wandering spirits, etc?) Is there anything mechanically worth sticking around for after picking up my level of Hellknight?
If you aren't going to do much physical combat anyway, Cardinal Cleric might actually be a decent entry. Normally this trades away too much for what you get, but if you can figure out a decent way to get back Medium Armor proficiency (you can use a feat, but seems like kind of a waste), you're good to go.
Herald Caller is also worth considering for entry -- not as many skill ranks per level, but doesn't trade out Medium Armor or degrade to 1/2 BAB; does trade out a Domain, though, which the Cardinal doesn't . . . Although most of the Herald Caller's replacement abilities don't depend upon gaining further levels of your base class to keep working at your level (you'll miss out on free Superior Summoning, but you can get this back by spending the feat that you saved from not going Cardinal and not having to get back Medium Armor Proficiency).
Similar to the Shaman would be an Oracle of Lore. Sidestep Secret, Lore Keeper, and (if you want to push it) Noble Scion can make you very SAD. Most of the Lore Revelations don't really care about your Oracle level so that side of the Signifier won't come up much but it fits well. Lunar is also a fun one as a Signifier since your pet will scale up with you.
Herald Caller actually does give up medium armor, which makes Medium Armor Profiebcy a prereq feat.
Although, a Herald Caller that takes Warrior Priest, Medium Armor Prof, and something else (maybe Sacred Summons to get your summons out quicker?) wouldn't be a bad option at all: it's a full Caster, has 4+Int skills/level, and Augment Summons (plus Superior Summons eventually). Your reliance on summoning slightly lessens the need for combat stats, letting you have a slightly higher than average Int with the option to get 6 skill points per level with favored class.
Such an ability score spread with PFS rules:
Str: 8
Dex: 16 (for ranged weapons and AC)
Con: 13 (bump up at 4th)
Int: 12 (skillzzzzzz)
Wis: 16 (you won't need much higher than this.)
Cha: 14 (because channeling is awesome, especially with the Herald's ability to heal your summons with channel even if they're out of range or not of a type that could be healed).
Grab a nice ranged weapon (probably a light crossbow), grabbing whatever domain looks the best to you, and go to town.
Use group buffs (Bless, Blessing of Fervor, Prayer, etc.) for the support part of your build as they'll be increased in effectiveness with each creature you summon.
Heading into Signifier doesn't really change much, as you still gain caster levels and your channeling progresses for the purpose of healing/harming chaotic creatures, which you can count your summons as.
(Since you can heal your summons from any distance, it makes it easier to stay away from chaotic outsiders that you don't want to heal, as you don't have to keep your summons in the radius.)
Hope that helped!!
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@Silverrey:
Similar to the Shaman would be an Oracle of Lore. Sidestep Secret, Lore Keeper, and (if you want to push it) Noble Scion can make you very SAD. Most of the Lore Revelations don't really care about your Oracle level so that side of the Signifier won't come up much but it fits well. Lunar is also a fun one as a Signifier since your pet will scale up with you.
I already have a SAD (okay, really she's just pouty) lunar oracle in PFS with Noble Scion and Psychic Searcher Archetype for inspiration dice. She's awesome, but because I already have one, I want to do something different with Bubbles.
@Bigrig107:
It is helpful to see your build ideas. Thank you!
The Herald Caller option is one that I'm definitely keeping in mind. I know I can build a strong character that way, but I'm not sure that I want to build a character that centered on summoning yet. I think I'll preserve this option as my plan B.
@Everyone Else:
If you were to build a Shaman, what spirit would you focus upon? I'm leaning lore, currently, but I'm interested in hearing your opinions. Mechanically, there seems no difference between chant and cackle, meaning that if I take chant, I could use a different witch hex like flight, right?
Hmm
EDITED to ADD: Bubbles will likely be a GM Baby for the first 3-4 levels of her career, meaning that I can slowly build her abilities together as I go.
Yep, Chant acts like a witch's Cackle (and you can't pick both of them anyway) so you're free to take a different witch hex like Flight! Just remember that you only get to pick one witch hex ever :)
As far as spirits go, I think Lore would be fitting considering the sort of character you're aiming for. You'd be able to swap Wis for Int for your Knowledge skills and add to your versatility with Arcane Enlightenment.
(Also since I know a little about Nixie's personality I like the added factor that Bubbles would be the exact opposite and be more knowledgeable and worldly, hehe.)
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A completely soaked girl wanders up to Lady Ladile, offering her a very damp, soggy hug. Afterwards, she pauses to gawk around her like a complete and utter tourist. "Good to see you again, but what do you mean, I'm not worldly???"
She drips as she walks across the floor, and drips even more as she pauses to shake hands with everyone in the thread. "Oooh, new friends!"
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Hmm prestidigitates the thread dry, and ushers Nixie out.
Okay, more questions. The hex thing. Do you get any spirit hexes automatically, or do you have to select them from the limited number of hexes you get as a shaman? So whenever you're elegible to get a hex, you have to choose between a general hex or a spirit hex?
Hmm
*returns the hug but is thankful for the Prestidigitation afterwards!*
You get to pick from either the general list or the hexes specific to your primary spirit. Definitely handy since the general list has some pretty good ones on its own, so you're not stuck with the leftover picks from your primary spirit if you don't want to be.
Herald Caller actually does give up medium armor, which makes Medium Armor Profiebcy a prereq feat.
{. . .}
Oops -- my bad. (Wonder how I managed to miss that?) That does make Cardinal somewhat more attractive, despite its being normally classified as a bad archetype. Comparing the two:
Cardinal: 2 more skill ranks per level, and doesn't lose a Domain (and Domains are features that Hellknight Signifer partially progresses, so this counts for something). On the downside, no awesome Summoning stuff, including the bonus feats for it, and after 5 levels of this you will have BAB -2 relative to Herald Caller.
Herald Caller: If you want to be the bubbly Devil Summoner (that's a scary thought), this is the way to go -- you get Summoning-oriented bonus feats (although getting into the Hellknight Signifer prestige class as early as possible means that you miss out on Superior Summoning at 8th level and have to spend a feat for it), and you can automatically heal your Summons no matter what type they are. By a really weird quirk in the way Alignment Channel (which Hellknight Signifer gets and stacks with your Cleric levels) works, one could even make the argument that you can use your Channel Energy to heal Chaotic Outsiders and your Herald Caller ability to heal your own summons regardless of type will make it apply to them, I don't think that this was Rules As Intended, and a lot of PFS tables may not accept it, but Rules As Written, it looks like it should work, although only because Alignment Channel (and Elemental Channel) are written broken.
I wonder if the main issue with going Shaman is worrying about the DC of your hexes, but i suppose you could go a more supportive route for that.
So what kind of Combat style do you want in addition to your control? If anything i think the spells that controls the battlefield enviroment might be easier to work with than the "Save or suck/stuck" spells like "Create Pit" or "Wall of Stone" or similar effects.
I will read into it some more and see what i can find, it seems i know too little about shamans to figure out how to mix em proper.
What about a Spiritualist with a Phantom of Dedication or Zeal?
In this specific case of Order of the Torrent, the phantom of a detective that never caught a particular villain (especially a kidnapper) would make an excellent phantom.
Spiritualists use Wisdom to cast.
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Huh. You're right. A spiritualist could be interesting too... Especially zeal. When I GMed for Hrothdane's Kiku, I loved all she was capable of... Let me look into those options too.
So many possiblities! Maybe I will have to build two of them side by side and see how they look. One advantage that I have here is that this will be a GM baby until at least level 4, so that I can be patient and allow certain things to come online for this character. If I recall, some of those spirits take a while to come online.
The Downsides of Spiritualist: I would not get 3rd level spells until level 7, meaning that I would not get into Hellknight until level 8. Also... No medium armor proficiency, so I'd have to waste a feat to get it. I'd also have to waste a feat on Arcane Armor Training, which would do NOTHING for me.
Upsides of Spiritualist: On the other hand, the psychic classes don't need much for feats, do they? They get all knowledges, and the social skills that I care about. They're also spontaneous, which means I'm less likely to waste a spell, though less overall versatility.
RP Ramifications
I just realized though that if Bubbles does the Spiritualist, her phantom is likely her dead father. That would be what would be pulling Bubbles into the whole Hellknight thing. Ooh, that could be very interesting, RP-wise!
Of course, I could do some of that flavor with Shaman, too! There are 'spirits' in both. Maybe I could do an Ancestor spirit, and pick up arcane enlightenment as a wandering hex?
Hmm
Maybe I could do an Ancestor spirit, and pick up arcane enlightenment as a wandering hex?
IMO, the arcane enlightenment hex from the lore spirit is strongest when you use it as a wandering spirit/hex. That lets you change which spells you get from the wizard list DAILY. If you build your shaman with the lore spirit in mind, but take a different main spirit, that makes for a pretty versatile caster.
Also note that as a Shaman (alternatively, Spirit Guide Oracle(*)) with the Lore Spirit and Arcane Enlightenment, you will be really MAD if you try to be any good at combat: You need Wisdom (alternatively CHarisma) as your primary casting stat, AND you need Intelligence to make Arcane Enlightenment good. PFS does help a bit by giving you a 20 point buy instead of the standard AP 15 point buy (although a lot of independent GMs give access to 20 point buy anyway), but it's still going to be tight.
(*)Gives you more spells per day, although remember that Shaman is 1 level ahead on getting access to a new level of spells.
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Every time I've built it out, it is super tight in the point buy. After a couple of iterations, this is what I've found to be the best point buy for it with Undine racial adjustments:
str 6
dex 12
con 12
int 14
wis 18
cha 14
Then you put your level up points into int, and focus your headband on wis/cha. I don't know what your preferences are when playing a character, so that spread may not be perfect for you. The main thing to remember is that int only has to be high enough to cast spells of the spell level you are using from the wizard spell list. Unless you only want one spell from the list (that you can change out as you level), charisma 14 is sort of the minimum.
I think your worry about not having enough spell slots is valid, but I don't think that is necessarily unique to the build or shamans. If you can start at level 4, you have 7 spells of your choice and then 2 spirit magic spells. Not a crazy amount, but easily 1 per encounter with a couple left over. Personally, if you focus on buffs and some crowd control, then you should have enough to make it through.
So names like Moon Unit would also be right out? Or people with a background in botany being named after flowers (Peonie, Petunia, Rose, etc.)?
Sometime there is a story in the name, which helps the concept.
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So I guess it's time to talk about the name. She's been named by her mom, in aquan, with a name that her mother thought would provide good luck. Bubbles is a perfectly reasonable undine name for any normal undine. For one that is trying to be a Hellknight? It's going to be a challenge. It undermines her authority, and frustrates her to no end, but it's the name she's been given.
In undine culture (the one that I've built up in my brain) community is huge. They're by far the most community-minded of all the elementals. Thus, a name that you choose for yourself does NOT count. Names that are given with the blessings of your family are a part of you forever. You may earn other names from others, but to change the name you were given? Not happening, especially if you're lawful. Which she totally is.
She looks human -- she has the mostly human trait -- but she's an undine in her soul. Claiming Hellknight for her is taking another family name. It's claiming out and staking a new identity. It's her key to becoming more than she is, and maybe unlocking her true self.
Really, this name is the entire seed around which this character has grown in my mind. It's my path into this character's head. Unfave all you like if you feel it breaks your game immersion.
Most of those that play with me understand that characters don't have to be just one thing. The best characters have inherent contradictions. They can be light or dark, serious or funny, or have more than one tie or obligation that drives them. I like playing characters that bring a touch of the unexpected to a table.
Hmm
PS Gummi Bear, thank you so much for being helpful. Seeing a stat array is very useful. Man, it's a good thing this character will start at level four. I will likely want both the porter and a handy haversack on her! Will she even be able to wear Hellknight armor? I don't think so....
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No problem! :D Making builds is fun for me, so I try to help where I can.
I don't own the new Hellknight book, but I'm pretty sure I have heard of non-heavy armor options for a Hellknight that you may want to look into. As a caster, there isn't really a whole lot you'll be carrying (especially with a handy haversack). You very well might play them differently than I do, but most of what my casters are carrying is in the form of equipped wondrous items which are typically weightless. I'd also capitalize on the fact that you intend on playing this character exclusively with a paladin (typically not a class that dumps strength) and see if he will carry your mwk backpack or something.
