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So i'm trying to make a dual wielding crossbow's guy, normally there's reloading problems, we all know about it at this point.
Here's my question, could you use a monkey familiar or something similar to reload your weapons for you?
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If you taught it how, then yes. It would likely involve the GM allowing you to teach the "trick" of "When I pass you a crossbow, do this to reload it then hand it back to me."
Note that since crossbows are going to be much larger for a monkey than they are for you, it will not be able to hold more than one crossbow at a time. This makes constant TWF difficult. A GM may say that, due to the sheer size involved, a Tiny familiar couldn't reload the crossbow at all.
It's not at all efficient, and you will certainly have table variance. The Reloading Hands spell, or a Beneficial Bandolier, are your best bets.
i dont mean passing it the crossbow, i mean reloading in my hands. acting sort of as an extra set
although dream crushing thnx for the prompt answers
Also, having a monkey sitting next to or on you ready to start messing with your weapon as soon as you shoot is probably going to disrupt you in combat.
Also, personally, I would argue that since the crossbow is one step too large for a Small familiar, that reloading it takes one step longer, or otherwise a full-round action, which cannot be readied. There aren't many, if any, rules about reloading crossbows not meant for your size, but I seriously don't think a monkey is going to be that adept or practiced at it.
@Saethori: Familiars can't learn tricks like animal companions or other animals can.
Oh. Right. Familiar. I got mixed up due to the Huge animal companion mount thread.
I'd say that a monkey familiar could reload a crossbow for you twice on its turn or once during your turn using a readied action.
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Monkey CR 1/4
N Tiny animal
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
It is not a chimpanzee or a mandrill. It is one of the smallish versions, the kind you keep on your shoulder. It is neither strong enough or large enough to recharge a human sized crossbow.
While there aren't specific limits to the strength needed to recharge a crossbow, both the light and the heavy already require mechanical assistance. For a tiny animal using a human sized lever or crank would be problematic. Even a small version would be difficult to use.
BTW, no reach, so it has to be in the same square of the crossbow to reload it.
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An Eldritch Guardian can give their monkey familiar Rapid Reload, but that still doesn't change that the weapon is two size categories larger than the monkey. A ballista, which is actually a large crossbow, takes two full-round actions to reload. So the monkey would likely take as long with a Medium crossbow.
Now, important question. Is there any way for a crossbow to shrink automatically via magic when in the hands of the monkey to be Tiny, along with any crossbow bolts it loads in, so it can benefit from Rapid Reload? If there is, that seems like the best solution to me.
Unlike Wondrous Items, magic weapons and armor do not resize to fit their owner. I could not find any special weapon quality to bestow this trait, either.
The crossbow is going to be way too large for a monkey to reload with any real speed, making this strategy too slow for typical combat purposes.
Take two levels in Juggler Bard, it will give you a free hand to reload.
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Now, important question. Is there any way for a crossbow to shrink automatically via magic when in the hands of the monkey to be Tiny, along with any crossbow bolts it loads in, so it can benefit from Rapid Reload? If there is, that seems like the best solution to me.
Weapon enchantment: Resizing +4,000 gp.
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Monkey CR 1/4
N Tiny animal
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
It is not a chimpanzee or a mandrill. It is one of the smallish versions, the kind you keep on your shoulder. It is neither strong enough or large enough to recharge a human sized crossbow.
While there aren't specific limits to the strength needed to recharge a crossbow, both the light and the heavy already require mechanical assistance. For a tiny animal using a human sized lever or crank would be problematic. Even a small version would be difficult to use.
BTW, no reach, so it has to be in the same square of the crossbow to reload it.
If we're going outside of a strict rules reading, then you have to consider that the "human sized" crossbow is something that's being designed to be used by a medium sized creature's hand and not something that is going to require that creature putting their entire body and all of their strength into it. A tiny creature with superior climbing ability and human (or near human) level intelligence could, conceivably, put their entire body strength and leverage into the action of reloading.
I'm assuming a scenario where the monkey familiar is sitting on its master's shoulder, scurries down the arm with a bolt, and loads the next bolt into the crossbow while the master continues to hold it.
Very strictly by the rules I think this would be legal, but would expect heavy table variance.
Personally I think it's a funny image and would allow it as a GM provided that the monkey was named Abu.
Now, important question. Is there any way for a crossbow to shrink automatically via magic when in the hands of the monkey to be Tiny, along with any crossbow bolts it loads in, so it can benefit from Rapid Reload? If there is, that seems like the best solution to me.Weapon enchantment: Resizing +4,000 gp.
Perfect. Get this enchantment, problem solved. So long as you are an Eldritch Guardian that is.
Perfect. Get this enchantment, problem solved. So long as you are an Eldritch Guardian that is.Now, important question. Is there any way for a crossbow to shrink automatically via magic when in the hands of the monkey to be Tiny, along with any crossbow bolts it loads in, so it can benefit from Rapid Reload? If there is, that seems like the best solution to me.Weapon enchantment: Resizing +4,000 gp.
And if you assume that the ammunition also changes size.
Monkey CR 1/4
N Tiny animal
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
It is not a chimpanzee or a mandrill. It is one of the smallish versions, the kind you keep on your shoulder. It is neither strong enough or large enough to recharge a human sized crossbow.
While there aren't specific limits to the strength needed to recharge a crossbow, both the light and the heavy already require mechanical assistance. For a tiny animal using a human sized lever or crank would be problematic. Even a small version would be difficult to use.
BTW, no reach, so it has to be in the same square of the crossbow to reload it.
If we're going outside of a strict rules reading, then you have to consider that the "human sized" crossbow is something that's being designed to be used by a medium sized creature's hand and not something that is going to require that creature putting their entire body and all of their strength into it. A tiny creature with superior climbing ability and human (or near human) level intelligence could, conceivably, put their entire body strength and leverage into the action of reloading.
I'm assuming a scenario where the monkey familiar is sitting on its master's shoulder, scurries down the arm with a bolt, and loads the next bolt into the crossbow while the master continues to hold it.
Very strictly by the rules I think this would be legal, but would expect heavy table variance.
Personally I think it's a funny image and would allow it as a GM provided that the monkey was named Abu.
I hate to say this, but after using a crossbow myself, I'd have to say you need more than Str 3 to reload it. The one I was using would probably be counted as a light one, and I needed the stirrup to pull the string back. And while I was 14 at the time I'm sure I had more than Str 3.
Assuming it can figure out how, it's two sizes below the intended user and much weaker. And on top of this ... either you're using your actions to pass the bow, or you've got a familiar clambering all over you. It's a neat image, but not one I think actually works, or even works in-game.
I'm not sure what resizing is supposed to be accomplishing?
Okay the familiar takes the cross bow from your hand and uses rapid reload to reload it, assuming the bolts resize to match the xbow.
Now at the start of your turn you have a free hand and use it to reload the xbow still in your hand as a free action?
Now the problem is that taking the crossbow back from the monkey is going to cost you your move action, so you can't full attack.
And if you assume that the ammunition also changes size.Perfect. Get this enchantment, problem solved. So long as you are an Eldritch Guardian that is.Now, important question. Is there any way for a crossbow to shrink automatically via magic when in the hands of the monkey to be Tiny, along with any crossbow bolts it loads in, so it can benefit from Rapid Reload? If there is, that seems like the best solution to me.Weapon enchantment: Resizing +4,000 gp.
Enlarge Person changes the size of ammunition loaded into a weapon until it is fired, so would argue Resizing would as well. It is a Medium crossbow, it is loaded with Medium bolts while they are Tiny, they get handed back to the Medium creature, return to Medium bolts. So maybe you need to get Resizing added to your bolts?
It's either a punishing expense or something you can hand wave as a property of the weapon added to any ammunition you load into it. Since it returns to it's original size after a round, you can't even use it to fire Colossal bolts as Tiny bolts to get an increase in damage dice artificially. I think a DM should just be lenient on the rules here, even if they can be seen as a big fat 'No'.
I'm not sure what resizing is supposed to be accomplishing?
Okay the familiar takes the cross bow from your hand and uses rapid reload to reload it, assuming the bolts resize to match the xbow.
Now at the start of your turn you have a free hand and use it to reload the xbow still in your hand as a free action?
Now the problem is that taking the crossbow back from the monkey is going to cost you your move action, so you can't full attack.
You are better off with Shadowcraft weapons probably if you really wanted to TWF with crossbows. They autoreload, and even if your opponent disbelieves the bolts, damage dice ends up quite irrelevant later in the game when you could afford Shadowcraft weapons, so your damage output is still pretty high.
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And if you assume that the ammunition also changes size.Perfect. Get this enchantment, problem solved. So long as you are an Eldritch Guardian that is.Now, important question. Is there any way for a crossbow to shrink automatically via magic when in the hands of the monkey to be Tiny, along with any crossbow bolts it loads in, so it can benefit from Rapid Reload? If there is, that seems like the best solution to me.Weapon enchantment: Resizing +4,000 gp.
Enlarge Person changes the size of ammunition loaded into a weapon until it is fired, so would argue Resizing would as well. It is a Medium crossbow, it is loaded with Medium bolts while they are Tiny, they get handed back to the Medium creature, return to Medium bolts. So maybe you need to get Resizing added to your bolts?
It's either a punishing expense or something you can hand wave as a property of the weapon added to any ammunition you load into it. Since it returns to it's original size after a round, you can't even use it to fire Colossal bolts as Tiny bolts to get an increase in damage dice artificially. I think a DM should just be lenient on the rules here, even if they can be seen as a big fat 'No'.
"All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Medium/Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell."
A resizing weapon instantly shrinks or grows to suit the size of any creature that picks it up unless it is currently wielded by another creature. It reverts to its original size 1 round after it leaves its wielder’s possession.
Enlarge person immediately loses effect the moment the item leaves the possession of the holder. Resizing changes size a round later. There is zero argument to be made. But, in the end, the resizing ranged weapon does not change the size of its ammunition. Thus, leaving this all moot.
Enlarge Person changes the size of ammunition loaded into a weapon until it is fired, so would argue Resizing would as well.
But Enlarge Person doesn't change the size of your arrows because they are loaded into your bow, it changes the size of the arrows because Enlarge Person affects everything that you are wearing and holding. Resizing doesn't have any wording suggesting that it applies to anything other than the weapon itself.
It is a Medium crossbow, it is loaded with Medium bolts while they are Tiny, they get handed back to the Medium creature, return to Medium bolts. So maybe you need to get Resizing added to your bolts?
I'm having trouble following this. Are you saying that the monkey loads the tiny crossbow with medium bolts or with tiny bolts?
Enlarge Person changes the size of ammunition loaded into a weapon until it is fired, so would argue Resizing would as well.But Enlarge Person doesn't change the size of your arrows because they are loaded into your bow, it changes the size of the arrows because Enlarge Person affects everything that you are wearing and holding. Resizing doesn't have any wording suggesting that it applies to anything other than the weapon itself.
It is a Medium crossbow, it is loaded with Medium bolts while they are Tiny, they get handed back to the Medium creature, return to Medium bolts. So maybe you need to get Resizing added to your bolts?I'm having trouble following this. Are you saying that the monkey loads the tiny crossbow with medium bolts or with tiny bolts?
Okay, so, with the hypothetical suggestion that any bolt loaded into a Resizing crossbow is also resized to fit that crossbow, the monkey then has to only load in medium crossbow bolts, which revert to tiny allowing the monkey to do that.
Basically, I don't think it's unfair to allow Resizing crossbows to change the size of any bolts that are loaded into it. But this is absolutely not by the RAW or even RAI. So literally don't even take my suggestion as something that will work with every DM, and this will never worki with PFS.
Okay, so, with the hypothetical suggestion that any bolt loaded into a Resizing crossbow is also resized to fit that crossbow, the monkey then has to only load in medium crossbow bolts, which revert to tiny allowing the monkey to do that.Enlarge Person changes the size of ammunition loaded into a weapon until it is fired, so would argue Resizing would as well.But Enlarge Person doesn't change the size of your arrows because they are loaded into your bow, it changes the size of the arrows because Enlarge Person affects everything that you are wearing and holding. Resizing doesn't have any wording suggesting that it applies to anything other than the weapon itself.
It is a Medium crossbow, it is loaded with Medium bolts while they are Tiny, they get handed back to the Medium creature, return to Medium bolts. So maybe you need to get Resizing added to your bolts?I'm having trouble following this. Are you saying that the monkey loads the tiny crossbow with medium bolts or with tiny bolts?
I can't see any justification for thinking that bolts would change size as they were loaded into a Resizing crossbow. A tiny crossbow would require tiny bolts.
I can't see any justification for thinking that bolts would change size as they were loaded into a Resizing crossbow. A tiny crossbow would require tiny bolts.Okay, so, with the hypothetical suggestion that any bolt loaded into a Resizing crossbow is also resized to fit that crossbow, the monkey then has to only load in medium crossbow bolts, which revert to tiny allowing the monkey to do that.Enlarge Person changes the size of ammunition loaded into a weapon until it is fired, so would argue Resizing would as well.But Enlarge Person doesn't change the size of your arrows because they are loaded into your bow, it changes the size of the arrows because Enlarge Person affects everything that you are wearing and holding. Resizing doesn't have any wording suggesting that it applies to anything other than the weapon itself.
It is a Medium crossbow, it is loaded with Medium bolts while they are Tiny, they get handed back to the Medium creature, return to Medium bolts. So maybe you need to get Resizing added to your bolts?I'm having trouble following this. Are you saying that the monkey loads the tiny crossbow with medium bolts or with tiny bolts?
Inventory is easier to control? Enlarge Person does something similar (even though, as pointed out by Lorewalker, it is not the same spell working here and Enlarge Person has different rules going on, and as I said, there is nothing RAW that suggests this is how a Resizing weapon works)? I don't know, mostly I'm postulating here to try and give OP something to work with, but I think this thread has rather thoroughly demonstrated that it is indeed not going to work, even with a monkey familiar there to reload their weapons.
Hence, I think the Shadowcraft weapons are by far the easiest method to achieve any kind of akimbo crossbow ridiculousness.
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Monkey CR 1/4
N Tiny animal
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
It is not a chimpanzee or a mandrill. It is one of the smallish versions, the kind you keep on your shoulder. It is neither strong enough or large enough to recharge a human sized crossbow.
While there aren't specific limits to the strength needed to recharge a crossbow, both the light and the heavy already require mechanical assistance. For a tiny animal using a human sized lever or crank would be problematic. Even a small version would be difficult to use.
BTW, no reach, so it has to be in the same square of the crossbow to reload it.
If we're going outside of a strict rules reading, then you have to consider that the "human sized" crossbow is something that's being designed to be used by a medium sized creature's hand and not something that is going to require that creature putting their entire body and all of their strength into it. A tiny creature with superior climbing ability and human (or near human) level intelligence could, conceivably, put their entire body strength and leverage into the action of reloading.
I'm assuming a scenario where the monkey familiar is sitting on its master's shoulder, scurries down the arm with a bolt, and loads the next bolt into the crossbow while the master continues to hold it.
Very strictly by the rules I think this would be legal, but would expect heavy table variance.
Personally I think it's a funny image and would allow it as a GM provided that the monkey was named Abu.
.Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
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Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Look some image in the internet, we are not speaking of a short lever. The movement is longer than the whole body of a 1' creature.
For the winch you need to rest the crossbow on the ground and turn it. The monkey can fly?
This has to be the best idea I've heard in a while and it should be totally legal. I'll even give it a dedicated class "Helper Monkey"
"Okay Mojo, we're surrounded by orcs"
Ho ho hew hea ha!
"Yeah I know, just reload my crossbows and we should be fine"
*Rolls for handle animal*
He hoo ho ha HA HA HEA!!
"No Mojo the bolts Mojo- not the bananas! Mojo!!"
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This has to be the best idea I've heard in a while and it should be totally legal. I'll even give it a dedicated class "Helper Monkey"
"Okay Mojo, we're surrounded by orcs"
Ho ho hew hea ha!
"Yeah I know, just reload my crossbows and we should be fine"
*Rolls for handle animal*
He hoo ho ha HA HA HEA!!
"No Mojo the bolts Mojo- not the bananas! Mojo!!"
Being that it is a familiar, not an animal companion, in the suggested idea... then you would not need to roll for handle animal. And, eventually, the monkey could straight up tell you how it feels about your ridiculous task getting in the way of it enjoying a nice, fresh banana.
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Resizing seem one of the abilities meant for melee weapons only, but it don't specify that.
And it really shouldn't.
It is great for composite longbows too. Get a resizing, adaptive longbow and carry different sized arrows in your efficient quiver! Then even if you become large, get disarmed and have to pick up your bow again, you are still good. And, if you have an improved familiar who can fire a bow, they can too!
You are better off with Shadowcraft weapons probably if you really wanted to TWF with crossbows. They autoreload, and even if your opponent disbelieves the bolts, damage dice ends up quite irrelevant later in the game when you could afford Shadowcraft weapons, so your damage output is still pretty high.
From what I see, Shadowcraft produce their own ammo, they don't auto-reload.
You are better off with Shadowcraft weapons probably if you really wanted to TWF with crossbows. They autoreload, and even if your opponent disbelieves the bolts, damage dice ends up quite irrelevant later in the game when you could afford Shadowcraft weapons, so your damage output is still pretty high.From what I see, Shadowcraft produce their own ammo, they don't auto-reload.
Ranged shadowcraft weapons that use ammunition create their own projectiles out of shadow, but they can be loaded with and fire other types of ammunition, as well.
Reading over the sentence, it is a little vague. It doesn't really specify if it does it for you, just that it produces it's own ammunition. But then, where and how does it produce the ammo? In your hand? When the string is pulled back?
You know, since it doesn't specifically say it is loaded for you, I'm inclined to agree. Shadowcraft is also not going to help OP.
SO i know it's been a while but since i have realized there are ways to increase a familiar's strength as it seems that seems to be one of the issues with a monkey not having the strength to reload one.
what would one consider the minimum strength to do so, a monkey familiar starts with a 3, you can use eye or talent i believe if human to bump it to 5...that should be enough, i mean let's be real most Kobolds have that strength, and most Kobolds use crossbow's i mean it's not like real bows work for them
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While the various suggestions are interesting, I highly recommend that if you want to dual-wield crossbows, you get both your weapons enchanted with this. It eliminates the need to reload, looks awesome, and the will save isn't that big of a deal. "Minimum damage" isn't that much lower than the average damage, since crossbows get most of their damage from flat, static bonuses (deadly aim, weapon enchants, et cetera).
While the various suggestions are interesting, I highly recommend that if you want to dual-wield crossbows, you get both your weapons enchanted with this. It eliminates the need to reload, looks awesome, and the will save isn't that big of a deal. "Minimum damage" isn't that much lower than the average damage, since crossbows get most of their damage from flat, static bonuses (deadly aim, weapon enchants, et cetera).
That's an incredibly powerful ability, I can't believe they wrote that. It basically completely subsumes the Endless Ammunition ability and automatically reloads all weapons (inclduing firearms) and the only cost is that the weapon will deal minimum damage. But since the majority of damage is static damage for ranged weapons, it's barely a penalty compared to never having to worry about reloading or buying ammunition.
It's not even clear if it only affects weapon damage dice, or other damage dice too. If it only affects weapon damage dice there is almost no reason not to get this for anything that isn't a free action to reload. Minimum weapon damage dice really isn't much of a penalty once you're sporting a +20 or so in static damage from other sources.
I think this is incredibly unbalancing with firearms. I can't believe they allowed this ability.
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I definitely feel it applies to all dice associated with the weapon. The projectiles are pseudo-real illusions - illusionary flaming projectiles, or a sneak attack, should also deal the minimum damage.
As far as power level - it's certainly a very useful enchantment, but the fact that it consumes one of your +1s means it makes your weapon quickly become much more expensive. And the lack of special ammunition means that rapid shot isn't going to cut it against enemies whose DR gives you problems.
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So i'm trying to make a dual wielding crossbow's guy, normally there's reloading problems, we all know about it at this point.
Here's my question, could you use a monkey familiar or something similar to reload your weapons for you?
I'd allow it, but I'd require a move or standard action to pass the crossbow to them. You aren't dropping it, as a free action, you are handing it to another character with care.
I personally think that dropping your weapons should risk damaging them to some degree. The Free action drop isn't exactly carefully placing the weapon on the ground. Granted, a club would be fine, but a complex device, like a crossbow, or a sharp weapon that risks becoming dulled, yeah, those weapons should risk damage from the "fall" incurred while being dropped.
I definitely feel it applies to all dice associated with the weapon. The projectiles are pseudo-real illusions - illusionary flaming projectiles, or a sneak attack, should also deal the minimum damage.
As far as power level - it's certainly a very useful enchantment, but the fact that it consumes one of your +1s means it makes your weapon quickly become much more expensive. And the lack of special ammunition means that rapid shot isn't going to cut it against enemies whose DR gives you problems.
Eh, that's what clustered shots is for. For most characters overcoming the reload limitations are much more significant (in terms of character investment) than mitigating the other issues. And while it's true is does use a +1, it also only uses up a +1. Exchanging a +1 to attack and damage so that you can easily dual wield pistols....yeah that would definitely happen. Especially since they no longer have to pay for expensive alchemical rounds to help reduce the reload time to a free action.
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While the various suggestions are interesting, I highly recommend that if you want to dual-wield crossbows, you get both your weapons enchanted with this. It eliminates the need to reload, looks awesome, and the will save isn't that big of a deal. "Minimum damage" isn't that much lower than the average damage, since crossbows get most of their damage from flat, static bonuses (deadly aim, weapon enchants, et cetera).
Sigh, another ability written in a questionable way.
RAI it seem to be aimed at allowing instantaneous reload for all ranged weapons, so that you can make your full iterative attacks with any ranged weapon.RAW the "only" benefit it give is the creation of ammunition, as it don't say anything about readying the weapon to fire.
The worse problem is that for weapons like a sling or a firearm having the ammunition in the proper place is all you need for benefiting from all your iterative attacks, while crossbows require you to use the lever or the winch, something that is not covered by this ability.
As Endless ammunition is +2 ability and increase the rate of fire, only create new ammunition, I think this ability will only create the ammunition, not ready the weapon to fire. You still need to use your move action to prepare it for firing.
Otherwise a +1 ability is way stronger than a +2.
The "minimum dice damage" effect is relatively irrelevant for a dedicated missile user.
While the various suggestions are interesting, I highly recommend that if you want to dual-wield crossbows, you get both your weapons enchanted with this. It eliminates the need to reload, looks awesome, and the will save isn't that big of a deal. "Minimum damage" isn't that much lower than the average damage, since crossbows get most of their damage from flat, static bonuses (deadly aim, weapon enchants, et cetera).Sigh, another ability written in a questionable way.
RAI it seem to be aimed at allowing instantaneous reload for all ranged weapons, so that you can make your full iterative attacks with any ranged weapon.
RAW the "only" benefit it give is the creation of ammunition, as it don't say anything about readying the weapon to fire.
The worse problem is that for weapons like a sling or a firearm having the ammunition in the proper place is all you need for benefiting from all your iterative attacks, while crossbows require you to use the lever or the winch, something that is not covered by this ability.As Endless ammunition is +2 ability and increase the rate of fire, only create new ammunition, I think this ability will only create the ammunition, not ready the weapon to fire. You still need to use your move action to prepare it for firing.
Otherwise a +1 ability is way stronger than a +2.
The "minimum dice damage" effect is relatively irrelevant for a dedicated missile user.
There is no "ready a ranged weapon" action. You just need to reload it. The text of that ability explicitly says you never have to reload it.
But, yeah, dual-wielding pistols is back on the table without all kinds of gimmicks.