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Actually it's not that hard. They could have said you need to have something you can take cover behind, you can drop prone (and actually be prone with all the penalties), or cover yourself with gear (and have that gear damaged), but they didn't. They don't need to be very specific.
That is the mechanics spelling out the narrative... thus limiting your own narrative and imagination. That is an extremely slippery slope that leads to, "the rules do not say that this works in this specific case so now i can not do it". which in turn leads to problems and not a fun gaming experience because now everything has to be spelled out in the rules for every circumstance.
Actually it's not that hard. They could have said you need to have something you can take cover behind, you can drop prone (and actually be prone with all the penalties), or cover yourself with gear (and have that gear damaged), but they didn't. They don't need to be very specific.
If there's one thing I hear complained about all the time that your post illustrates, is that more specifics limit creativity and options. This is mainly the case with feats, but other features can suffer as well.
To note your two examples 1) Is just bad. For a feat like Twist Away, allowing reflex to a con save, a penalty actually makes sense. Where as a fort save is laughing something of, a reflex vs a fort save is basically unnaturally contorting your body to avoid damage. Having to go prone sets a precedent for certain times where you eat the damage since, well, let's say the enemy sorceress has a pet tiger. You do not wanna be prone against a pounce, or most things. Just as well, the rogue's good initiative and potential sneak attack is wasted with having to stand. The pro of the ability leaves too many opportunities for it to work against you.
As for needing gear... what about a Monk? Homeboy is basically naked. Would they need to sacrifice clothing? Like Monk Robes? Because that's just cruel and unusual punishment.
Evasion is vague, cinematic, and generally a powerful ability to classes that have it. This discussion is another example of people wanting selective realism that ultimately would just limit options (For martials. Yes, I went there). It'd be like wanting a realistic, in game explanation for Deathless Zealot and why it makes critting you that much more difficult. Because they're fantasy heroes and can do badass things.
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If you can not use your own imagination to come up with your own narrative for abilities like this, and with out a doubt if you have problems with evasion and reflex you are going to have issues with many other parts of the game. Then that's not a problem with the game but a problem with you. trying to force the narrative into the mechanics are not going to fix your problem.
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I ran a Mythic campaign a while back. I told my group that as Mythic Heroes, I was giving them greater flexibility/freedom with how they could narrate their characters making actions and solving problems. To emphasize this, I narrated what happened when a PC failed to beat the SR of a Mythic Leukodaemon (who was wielding an Artifact-level sword, though the sword itself offered no statistical/mechanical benefit to resisting spells:
You hurl the fist-sized ball at the Leukodaemon. As it approaches, the Daemon winds back, and slashes with his sword, slicing your fireball in half before it can detonate. The two halves veer wide and careen past the Daemon, spinning out of control. Their velocity propels them twenty feet in the air, where they finally collide again, detonating in an explosive display, superimposing the Daemon's silhouette in front of the flash.
Obviously, this isn't how SR works. The spell should have still acted normally, with the exception of it not having any effect on the Daemon. There weren't any other creatures in the blast radius (or in the sky, for that matter), so only the Leukodaemon was the only creature in the spell's area effect. Mechanically speaking, you can't cut a spell in half and negate it. However, the only two things that really matter in this scenario were [caster casts Fireball] > [caster fails to beat SR] = [Leukodaemon takes no damage]. I added some flavorful narrative in between the dots, but if you look at the before and after for both mechanical and narrative chains of events, they're identical.
Applying this to a PC with Evasion isn't all that different.
GM: Everyone make a Reflex save...OK, everyone in this area who failed takes 37 fire damage from the Wizard's Fireball spell. Everyone who passed takes half, and Evasive Evan takes 0.
Evan: OK, calculating the Wizard's line-of-sight, I determine that the Fireball will be centered five feet to my right. With a momentary burst of adrenaline, I sprint fifteen feet to my left, just missing the blast radius, and then immediately sprint back to where I was standing.
GM: You can't do that, it's not your turn, and you didn't hold an action. And even if you had, you'd provoke twice.
Evan: I have evasion and made my Reflex save. I'm standing in the same spot as before, and no one else was effected by my flavor-actions. What's the difference from if I had said 'I stand in the center of the fireball and do a sort of...skip, and take no damage'?
I've never seen any problems with stuff like this. Now, there may have been a story-driven reason why moving fifteen feet to the left wouldn't be aloud, like getting a new vantage point, and seeing the villain's secret identity from behind a curtain, altering how the combat would play out. Barring these circumstances, I think flavoring things like Evasion in this way is perfectly acceptable.
However, I also see where Claxon is coming from. How would Evan flavor making his Reflex save on that same fireball while locked in a 5x5x5' cage, and completely naked? He'd probably say that he stands in the middle of the fireball and does a sort of...skip, and takes no damage, which is boring AF. Claxon's looking for a reasonable explanation how that character is fundamentally able to avoid a ball of fire while mechanically standing in its area of effect. In a world where magic is a thing, but non-magical people are still limited by the laws of physics as we know them, it's a valid request. I made a suggestion on the first page that could justify it, but I know that fireballs are but one of many Reflex-halves scenarios, and characters with Evasion can mechanically, fully avoid them all with no external assistance. It IS a bit head-scratching, and unfortunately, I don't think there's any universal answer.
P.S. can we stop pointing fingers at others' imagination capacity? Pathfinder is a widely narrative game, but it sits on hard numbers and mechanics. Some people hold more value in one or the other, and both are fine. The fact that Evasion is a seemingly mystical ability, and is also labeled as an Extraordinary ability IS more or less head-scratching, and in a game where the mechanics are most often the most common denominator, having such contradictory labels tied to one mechanic with no explanation is certainly head scratching. While this lets players insert their own answers, it certainly doesn't help someone else when that answer is "it just does", or "dragons exist; don't overthink it."
Can't believe nobody has brought up The Matrix yet.
That was the first thing that I thought about, before I even looked at everyone else's posts. I think that normal people can duck out of the way, just in time to not get directly hit by a fireball, but still getting singed. If you have evasion, then you can just dodge it like the matrix. With improved evasion, you always matrix-dodge the fireball, but sometimes you're just not fast enough to evade it entirely.
EDIT: This is how I, as the hypothetical GM, would say how this happened if the character with evasion was the only one in the blast radius. If there were other people, then I might say that the rogue rolled just out of the radius and then just quickly came back to their original position. But if it was their turn next, then I might just let them roll or sprint to wherever they wanted to go.
Personally, I just let the Rogue move themselves to a space adjacent to the blast. Rogues aren't going to become overpowered any time soon, and positioning is important for sneak attacks.
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Can't believe nobody has brought up The Matrix yet.That was the first thing that I thought about, before I even looked at everyone else's posts. I think that normal people can duck out of the way, just in time to not get directly hit by a fireball, but still getting singed. If you have evasion, then you can just dodge it like the matrix. With improved evasion, you always matrix-dodge the fireball, but sometimes you're just not fast enough to evade it entirely.
EDIT: This is how I, as the hypothetical GM, would say how this happened if the character with evasion was the only one in the blast radius. If there were other people, then I might say that the rogue rolled just out of the radius and then just quickly came back to their original position. But if it was their turn next, then I might just let them roll or sprint to wherever they wanted to go.
Oddly enough that scene looks more silly and less awe-inspiring now, oh well. Though Neo, great back bend. You should teach Yoga.
Trying to apply realism to Pathfinder is a bad idea, don't even bother trying to explain it realistically. Best way to describe evasion is to think of Spider-Man. He always seems to avoid attacks, even when the bad guy thinks he has Spidey cornered or in a bad spot. That's evasion. You can even have the bad guys react like "What the? How'd he avoid THAT??"
The fact that Evasion is a seemingly mystical ability, and is also labeled as an Extraordinary ability IS more or less head-scratching, and in a game where the mechanics are most often the most common denominator, having such contradictory labels tied to one mechanic with no explanation is certainly head scratchingI don't know what's contradictory about calling the ability to take a fireball to the face and come out of the explosion unscathed extraordinary.
In fact that kind of seems like the definition of extraordinary.
I'm using Extraordinary in the context of game mechanics. There are three types of abilities: Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-like. You can guess which one covers mundane abilities, like Scent and Rage - cool stuff, but things still grounded in the laws of physics - and Evasion is on the list. The Monk's Abundant Step (short-range teleport) ability is Supernatural, which makes sense. While being engulfed in a fireball (with no otherwise magical abilities or resistances) and coming out unscathed could be described as extraordinary in the literary sense, it seems like it should be Supernatural, when using game mechanics.
People have gotten misused to reading "Ex" and thinking "oh, that means it's a mundane ability".
"Ex" means extraordinary. Yes, within the realm of the game, extraordinary comprehends mundane abilities, but those abilities are, in spite of that fact, beyond what one can comprehend.
Take the simplest Ex ability - Weapon Training. Say you have a Fighter 5 and a Paladin 5 fighting a dire bear. Both the Fighter 5 and the Paladin 5 have Weapon Focus (greatsword) and are using such weapon, and both have 18 STR.
The Paladin attacks, and his attack roll results on a 7, which after modifiers (STR, WF, +5 BAB) ends up as a 17, and fails to penetrate the dire bear's 18 AC.
Then the Fighter attacks, and rolls a 7 of his own -- but the total of that attack is 18, because on top of the same modifiers the Paladin has, the Fighter has Weapon Training on heavy blades.
Now, that seems super ordinary to us, knowing the crazy stuff that goes on in this game -- but try to put yourself in the shoes of the Paladin.
You just saw your companion attempt the same type of attack (both 7s), with both of you having undergone training to use your weapons (weapon focus) and both of you having the same amount of combat experience (BAB +5)... and yet that damned Fighter had a trick under his sleeve to make his attack successful where you simply couldn't.
Imagine how the Paladin looks at the guy that, through sheer force of will and determination, manages to push his expertise in combat beyond what should be common for a person of his experience. It's nothing short of extraordinary.
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Getting back to evasion -- just use your imagination!
Inside a castle? The Rogue pulled himself up on a nearby curtain or lighting fixture.
Out in a forest? The Rogue just did a tic-tac on a tree stump.
In the middle of an empty, lifeless plains? Cartwheel dodge!
Literally any environment? Dude cowered and when he looked up, he realized the fireball just happened to miss his spot.
However, I also see where Claxon is coming from. How would Evan flavor making his Reflex save on that same fireball while locked in a 5x5x5' cage, and completely naked? He'd probably say that he stands in the middle of the fireball and does a sort of...skip, and takes no damage, which is boring AF. Claxon's looking for a reasonable explanation how that character is fundamentally able to avoid a ball of fire while mechanically standing in its area of effect. In a world where magic is a thing, but non-magical people are still limited by the laws of physics as we know them, it's a valid request. I made a suggestion on the first page that could justify it, but I know that fireballs are but one of many Reflex-halves scenarios, and characters with Evasion can mechanically, fully avoid them all with no external assistance. It IS a bit head-scratching, and unfortunately, I don't think there's any universal answer.
P.S. can we stop pointing fingers at others' imagination capacity? Pathfinder is a widely narrative game, but it sits on hard numbers and mechanics. Some people hold more value in one or the other, and both are fine. The fact that Evasion is a seemingly mystical ability, and is also labeled as an Extraordinary ability IS more or less head-scratching, and in a game where the mechanics are most often the most common denominator, having such contradictory labels tied to one mechanic with no explanation is certainly head scratching. While this lets players insert their own answers, it certainly doesn't help someone else when that answer is "it just does", or "dragons exist; don't overthink it."
Exactly. I'm sorry that I want mechanics and story to match up. This isn't about being unable to imagine ways in which you could evade the fireball, it's that when you avoid the fireball by saying you fall prone and quickly get back up it ignores lots of other mechanics already in place in the game like you can't take free actions when it's not your turn (except talking), getting up from prone provokes, and getting up from prone requires an action. Why can you do that when a fireball is hurled at you, but you can't do it the rest of the time?
Exactly. I'm sorry that I want mechanics and story to match up.Wanting mechanics and story to match up is fine. It's the whole wanting to nerf the crap out of rogues because they can do something kind of unrealistic in a horrendously unrealistic game that I have a problem with.
I never said I want to nerf Evasion or Rogues. Simply that explanations that involve things that have defined game mechanics aren't suitable answer to me because Evasion works without them happening.
I roll with "It just works".
Exactly. I'm sorry that I want mechanics and story to match up.Wanting mechanics and story to match up is fine. It's the whole wanting to nerf the crap out of rogues because they can do something kind of unrealistic in a horrendously unrealistic game that I have a problem with.
I skipped a few posts earlier on, but I haven't seen anyone requesting to nerf the Rogue - which isn't the only class that gets Evasion, btw. The OP was looking for an example of how Evasion would realistically work. It's obvious how Scent works. It's obvious how Rage works. It's obvious (fundamentally) how Blindsense works, as well as Burrow, Compression, Pounce, and Rend. Regeneration isn't mundane, strictly speaking, but anyone who's watched X-Men can at least picture the ability working in action, as well as just about every other Extraordinary Ability. Evasion, on the other hand...sure, there are scenarios where the creature could use its environment to feasibly avoid taking damage from a fireball or breath weapon, or Lightening Bolt, but in a situational vacuum, there's really nothing besides "I just do it; don't think about it".
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I never said I want to nerf EvasionI skipped a few posts earlier on, but I haven't seen anyone requesting to nerf the RogueActually it's not that hard. They could have said you need to have something you can take cover behind, you can drop prone (and actually be prone with all the penalties), or cover yourself with gear (and have that gear damaged), but they didn't. They don't need to be very specific.Making evasion not function without cover or require you to spend a move action on the following turn and take penalties to AC or requiring you to sacrifice your equipment are all some pretty heavy handed nerfs.
That... isn't at all what Claxon was saying. Claxon is explicitly in the "it just works" camp. No explanation necessary.
I never said I want to nerf EvasionI skipped a few posts earlier on, but I haven't seen anyone requesting to nerf the RogueActually it's not that hard. They could have said you need to have something you can take cover behind, you can drop prone (and actually be prone with all the penalties), or cover yourself with gear (and have that gear damaged), but they didn't. They don't need to be very specific.Making evasion not function without cover or require you to spend a move action on the following turn and take penalties to AC or requiring you to sacrifice your equipment are all some pretty heavy handed nerfs.
Thanks for taking something out of context.
I was responding to the train of thought of how Paizo could have written the ability to support narrative descriptions of hiding behind things, people, moving out of the area, or dropping prone as a way to have Evasion work. Not that it's how I wanted Evasion to work.
If I had my way I would change the ability from Extraordinary to Supernatural. Then the answer is "it works because magic".
I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been said. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the title was a thing that happened a few weeks back.
1. Monk is being swarmed over by tons of spiders.
2. Wizard casts fireball.
3. Monk makes save.
4. Monk is completely fine, whereas all spiders on monk are dead.
Gamer logic at its finest.
I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been said. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the title was a thing that happened a few weeks back.
1. Monk is being swarmed over by tons of spiders.
2. Wizard casts fireball.
3. Monk makes save.
4. Monk is completely fine, whereas all spiders on monk are dead.Gamer logic at its finest.
I see no problem. The monk did a sideways figure eight at ultra high speeds without consequences like whiplash. Put any break dancer to SHAME!
Monk squeezed a spider's web-sac with his foot and created a layer of spiderweb around him, which got carbonized by the fireball but otherwise completely protected the Monk.
I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been said. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the title was a thing that happened a few weeks back.
1. Monk is being swarmed over by tons of spiders.
2. Wizard casts fireball.
3. Monk makes save.
4. Monk is completely fine, whereas all spiders on monk are dead.Gamer logic at its finest.
Spiders absorbed the blast, thus saving the monk. What is the problem?
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I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been said. But the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the title was a thing that happened a few weeks back.
1. Monk is being swarmed over by tons of spiders.
2. Wizard casts fireball.
3. Monk makes save.
4. Monk is completely fine, whereas all spiders on monk are dead.Gamer logic at its finest.
I know, right? The idea that you could take a pinch of bat guano and toss it underhand and and shout a few words and somehow convert the kinetic energy of yelling and throwing into enough heat to create a 20' ball of fire? Feh. Gamers. They don't understand anything.
Just think of any time a cinematic hero dodges an explosion that should have cooked him in the movies.
A lot of things we take for granted in the game are less "realistic" than that.
Even magical explosions are chaotic. The thunderous air currents and eddies of fiery doom are just hotter and more intense next in the region where some else failed their save. This of course is my generic answer luck and coincidence combined with wit and skill of the rogue.
In a more natural setting, the rogue ducks behind the fighter who sadly took the brunt of the blast. If there is furniture they find it.
Willful Suspension of Disbelief
It's the idea that we are willing to neglect certain aspects of reality to make fiction entertaining. Like a Black and White movie. Obviously real life isn't black and white, but we overlook that so we can still enjoy the movie.
My recommendation?
They do a combination of a back bend and the splits.
Rogue: THAT'S why I only wear light armor
