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YEZZZZZZ thank you, Campaign Clarifications <3
Let's build us a PFS Cavalier Pistolero:
- Human
- S10 D16+2 C14 I10 W10 CH14
- Threatening Defender, Seeker
- Order of the Eastern Star
Feats:
LV1. Point-Blank Shot, H: Precise Shot, B: Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), B: Gunsmithing
LV3. Deadly Aim, B: Rapid Reload, B: Amateur Gunslinger (Deadeye)
LV5. Rapid Shot
LV6. Combat Expertise
LV7. Chain Challenge
LV9. Steadfast Personality, Deeds: Gunslinger's Initiative, Dead Shot
LV11. Improved Precise Shot
LV12. Mounted Combat
LV13. Trick Riding
LV15. Mounted Skirmisher
LV17. Iron Will, Deeds: Targeting, Lightning Reload
LV18. Extra Grit
LV19. Critical Focus
LV20. Deeds: Evasive, Slinger's Luck, Cheat Death
Ohhh nice challenge damage with firearms. I like.
Deadly aim dosn't work with touch attacks. Chain Challenge is not PFS legal.
Why order of the eastern star? Wouldn't you try to avoid melee anyhow? Order of the green gives you a to hit bonus on all attacks.
Why not Halfling? Small Cavaliers are pretty good in PFs cause they can take along their mount adn stat modifiers are perfect.
Deadly Aim works with firearms.
This is for personal use, so I don't care too much about PFS legality.
Order of the Green is also good. My thinking is that DR, AC and save bonuses from combat expertise could be sweet.
And in the rules for firearms we find this.
When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
Meaning guns can use deadly aim, even when going against touch AC.
Ah you posted PFS up there...
So me thinks if you go with Order of the Eastern star you should pick up Expertise earlier than 6th at least if you will be playing this from 1 up. Also the above build lacks the 13 INT required anyhow so I'd prolly ditch order of the eastern star. Come to think of it Order of the flame would be nice here and order of the land also provides you with a to hit bonus for ranged attacks but personally I prefer Order of the Green as it has nicer abilities.
Also I love the following feat and you could actually make it work from level 5 or so onwards to wield a large musket.
http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Artillery%20Team
What's even cooler is that you could wield a large musket as small character (GOBLINZ WITH GUNZ). However somehow you have to teach your mount WP: Musket to pull that off...put just picture a goblin swine rider with a friggin bazooka!
I think we're getting to a point where a new edition should be released where these clarifications aren't in multiple different books....
All this information is in ultimate combat. If you haven't read the book, then you wouldn't know firearms make touch attacks in the first place.
What's changed about Spellscar Drifter to make it good?
It now deals challenge damage with range attacks.
Ah you posted PFS up there...
So me thinks if you go with Order of the Eastern star you should pick up Expertise earlier than 6th at least if you will be playing this from 1 up. Also the above build lacks the 13 INT required anyhow so I'd prolly ditch order of the eastern star. Come to think of it Order of the flame would be nice here and order of the land also provides you with a to hit bonus for ranged attacks but personally I prefer Order of the Green as it has nicer abilities.
Also I love the following feat and you could actually make it work from level 5 or so onwards to wield a large musket.
http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Artillery%20Team
What's even cooler is that you could wield a large musket as small character (GOBLINZ WITH GUNZ). However somehow you have to teach your mount WP: Musket to pull that off...put just picture a goblin swine rider with a friggin bazooka!
All cool stuff and nice picking out my mistakes. I was so excited I forgot this was meant to go to my PFS trove.
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What's changed about Spellscar Drifter to make it good?
PFS just ruled that it's challenge ability works with guns for PFS.
So it's not official outside of PFS.
Oh! Well, thanks for the info. I'm not a PFS person, so this is nothing to do with me. Seems like something my home group would just houserule as par for the course anyway. Carry on. :)
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What's changed about Spellscar Drifter to make it good?PFS just ruled that it's challenge ability works with guns for PFS.
So it's not official outside of PFS.
YES THAT MEANS THAT IT DOESn'T APPLY TO ALL OF THEM UNOFFICIAL NON PFS GAMES
YOU KNOW
THE KIND THAT EXISTS
seriously read between the lines -they wanted to Errata it but they can't because it's in a player companion, so they stealth fixed it with a "suggestion"
Same applies to glorious heat and boots of the earth. The intent is clear.
If you want to stick with Order of the Eastern Star I'd go with something like this for stats:
S10 D16+2 C12 I13 W10 CH14
The Eastern star really compensates nicely for the poor Wil save progression and your low wisdom. I'd still consider going with irrepresible over threateining defender as trait however.
It's utility is also kind of nice as it adds 2 strong knowledge skills and the Psychic skill unlocks.
However I just noticed that Order of the Land might be the way to go as you can whack fools in the face with your firearm and still receive your challenge bonus damage on these melee attacks...add Profession(Gunsmith) and tools of the trade ad you can top that off with some tasty cheese sauce!
I think catch off guard is actually better than empty quiver style especially since Owen recently posted in the Rules Forum that Empty quiver style treats a weapon as a club for all purposes.
Also order of the land hands out catch off guard for free at level 2.
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What's changed about Spellscar Drifter to make it good?PFS just ruled that it's challenge ability works with guns for PFS.
So it's not official outside of PFS.
I think it's reasonable to assume that "the people who are literally pickiest about interpreting rules as written even if they were obviously intended to work differently have made a ruling that is permissive" is a good standard for everybody else to be at least that permissive.
Like what does "official" even mean if you're not doing organized play? In non-organized play games you're free to just ignore or change entire rules as you like.
Yes, housegames can and do play as they want. It's one thing in a home game to go "there's a FAQ saying jumping 5ft is a 5ft jump" and another thing to go "somebody says this is how it works". So because it works that way in PFS doesn't change the base rules for anyone else. And not all GMs will be okay "changing the rules" to match PFS.
Yes, housegames can and do play as they want. It's one thing in a home game to go "there's a FAQ saying jumping 5ft is a 5ft jump" and another thing to go "somebody says this is how it works". So because it works that way in PFS doesn't change the base rules for anyone else. And not all GMs will be okay "changing the rules" to match PFS.
This presupposes that otherwise the idea was that the Spellscar Drifter is an archetype built around the inability to use challenge damage on firearms.
I made a post about this on the General Forum motivated by your earlier comment - it mostly deals with errata policy and how I think this is the only way they could at least make some players know what it was meant to do.
What's changed about Spellscar Drifter to make it good?PFS just ruled that it's challenge ability works with guns for PFS.
So it's not official outside of PFS.YES THAT MEANS THAT IT DOESn'T APPLY TO ALL OF THEM UNOFFICIAL NON PFS GAMES
YOU KNOW
THE KIND THAT EXISTS
seriously read between the lines -they wanted to Errata it but they can't because it's in a player companion, so they stealth fixed it with a "suggestion"
Same applies to glorious heat and boots of the earth. The intent is clear.
Wait, why can't they errata player companions?
1) They only publish Errata when a book is reprinted, often player companions don't need to be reprinted.
2) PDT make the RPG line, Other people make the Player Companion line. To make a FAQ or Errata for it you'd need both together to discuss the change. Since it's two completely different teams it's really hard to ever have this happen.
Okay, here's what I have for the PFS Trove:
Gnome - Vivacious, Eternal Hope, Academician (Knowledge [local])
Traits - Seeker, Indomitable Faith
Attributes at Creation
S8 (10-2) D16 C16 (14+2) I12 W10 CH16 (13+2)
Skills
Knowledge [local], Perception, Ride, Handle Animal, Survival
Class notes
- Spellscar Drifter Cavalier
- Boar mount
- Knight Errant (Order)
Progression to 12
1. Point-Blank Shot, F: Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), F: Gunsmithing
3. Precise Shot, F: Amateur Gunslinger (Deadeye), F: Rapid Reload
4. +1 CHA
5. Rapid Shot
6. Deadly Aim
7. Steadfast Personality
8. +1 DEX
9. Iron Will, F: Amateur Gunslinger (Gunslinger's Initiative, Dead Shot)
11. Improved Precise Shot
12. Extra Grit
Hmm didn't know about the dirty trickster race trait. It's really kinda handy but trades out a lot of other things, the only one of those I'd really miss is Keen Senses however. With Gnome you will have even less feats and it'll take for ever till you get Rapid Shot going I'd prolly delay deadly aim to 7 as rapid shot gives you more bang for your buck when you challenge.
1 PBS
3 Precise Shot
5 Rapid Shot
6 Deadly Aim
7 Chain Challenge
I really wouldn't feel comfortable sacrificing a single one of those feats for combat expertise so imo you either have to stick with human or scratch the order of the Eastern Star.
Anyways the combination of Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot and no bonus to DEX might actually mean that you miss stuff from time to time... however I have no experience with gun wielders so I don't know how big of a difference hitting touch AC makes.
I'm interested in trying this out in PFS. I like the order of the land as this will allow you to use your gun as a back up melee weapon. However you might lack STR so this might not be overly viable. Other orders I like include Order of the Green and I'm also really big on Dwarven Cavaliers due to the FCB but the CHA penalty hurts here so I'll have to ponder my options a bit...
I decided to opt for a more activated defense build with the Knight Errant order and scrap Combat Expertise.
I like Order of the Green but I like the more applicable abilities of the Knight Errant, plus I like the flavor :P
(Check the build above your post!)
Yea you ninjad me there... I'm not super impressed with Ronin the only ability that really does something for you is the reroll which is very nice. The skills are also nice however... the Challenge is close to useless.
I was thinking of going a different route. Screw the horse... play a Dwarf and Wear Full Plate (actually that nifty Asian heavy armor with the +3 DEX modifier). If you choose an order which provides a bonus to hit you should do okay with a lackluster DEX (and if you want you can even dump Charisma and pick up Extra grit) this leaves you with enough points to ensure a high CON and WIS for defenses and STR to hit in melee if need be and wear that heavy armor. Add in hardy and a save boosting trait and you should be alright. Like so:
Dwarven Cavalier Order of the Land
STR 14 DEX 16 CON 16 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 5
Alt Race Traits: Stoic Negotiator
Traits: Seeker, Glory of Old?/Keep Shhooting?
1 PBS
2 Catch of Guard
3 Precise Shot
5 Rapid Shot
6 Extra Grit
7 Deadly Aim
9 Improved Critical
11 Improved Precise Shot
Thinking is if I can hit things with my gun stick I don't really need grit that much. Are there any magic items that increae your grit pool?
You get gunslinger minus most deeds plus Challenge plus a horse.
As for errata and player companions, there is a FAQ section for that.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gj
Contributor
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As for errata and player companions, there is a FAQ section for that.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gj
can you take Amateur Gunslinger twice?
You get gunslinger minus most deeds plus Challenge plus a horse.You know, for the longest time I thought Challenge only provided a bonus to hit. After re reading the Cavalier I'm seeing the potential.
The Cavalier isn't exactly an all star class but it's not that bad :)
I really like the idea of a fat bald Dwarf in a humongous set of armor his rifle in hand troting peacefully along the countryside on a very tired pony...
Another good order I've found is the Order of the Eclipse. Lots of bonuses to senses!
can you take Amateur Gunslinger twice?
The archetype grants you Amateur Gunslinger several times though.
Another good order I've found is the Order of the Eclipse. Lots of bonuses to senses!
Pretty nifty. Overall in selecting orders for this archetype you can look more into the utility aspect as you have such a strong offensive capacity to start with.
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I think catch off guard is actually better than empty quiver style especially since Owen recently posted in the Rules Forum that Empty quiver style treats a weapon as a club for all purposes.
Also order of the land hands out catch off guard for free at level 2.
Yes, but that is irrelevant once you get empty quiver flexibility and everything that applies to ranged attacks applies to melee attacks.
Yes, but that is irrelevant once you get empty quiver flexibility and everything that applies to ranged attacks applies to melee attacks.I think catch off guard is actually better than empty quiver style especially since Owen recently posted in the Rules Forum that Empty quiver style treats a weapon as a club for all purposes.
Also order of the land hands out catch off guard for free at level 2.
Empty Quiver Flexibility is a 5 or 6 feat heavy investement on a totally feat starved build.
Adaptive Strike on the other hand is a 2nd level ability from an Order with decent skills and a challenge ability that provides a buff to attack...
Of course I'm assuming that if I wield my firearm as an improvised melee weapon it will also deal Challenge Damage.
What's changed about Spellscar Drifter to make it good?PFS just ruled that it's challenge ability works with guns for PFS.
So it's not official outside of PFS.
I think we can both agree that the printed Spellscar Drifter is obviously a mistake. We also know that official errata will not be forthcoming. So I have to ask you, Chess Pwn, what is gained by vehemently shouting that this clarification of obvious intent is not official?
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Casual Viking,
We can't both agree that Spellscar drifter is obviously a mistake.
I agree that the likelihood of errata for it is pretty low.
Because that's what it is, it's a PFS houserule, PFS isn't official Paizo. And to say or imply that Spellscar Drifter had changed officially would have been dishonest.
If I remember correctly you recently got in a different argument about how Dev comments aren't official either. Since I read that post I know there's no reason for me to talk more about it with you than this.
1. Dev comments are official errata if you care about RAW. Can't take an editing mistake to be an official rule if you are not a douche.
2. PFS is official Paizo.
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1. Dev comments are official errata if you care about RAW. Can't take an editing mistake to be an official rule if you are not a douche.
2. PFS is official Paizo.
Dev comments have been officially labeled as non-official. Ask Mark, He repeatedly and frequently reminds people that anything he says on the threads isn't official. The designers of classes come in and say what their intent was, and often say something like "While not official, My intent was this..." Because there are times the PDT changes something or read it a different way so designer intent isn't PDT intent.
*If you understand what is being said don't twist it by using a same word a different way. It's important for communication that we understand and are using words the same way.Are dev and designer comments about intent helpful? Of course they are, they can help you choose which interpretation you'll go with until it's officially clarified (if it ever happens). At which point you're deciding to follow the rules or make a houserule to what you were doing before. Take the Sohei monk, it left off in the armor that it couldn't flurry in armor, so RAW was that it could. The creator came in and gave his intent was that it still couldn't flurry in armor. PDT came and made a FAQ that yes, it could flurry in armor. So the "mistake of forgetting to copy the line" Was intentional and PDT intended it to be different from the creators intent. Another example is the investigator, It is basically word for word same as Alchemist, yet the line "can use spell trigger items" didn't make it. Most people thought it was just a copying mistake. Intent was that it was supposed to be out and investigator's couldn't use the wand.
Sorry, yes PFS works with/under/for/whatever Paizo, But they aren't able to officially say stuff for the game. The Head(s) of PFS often say that anything they say is only official for PFS and has no official weight in making rules for the game outside of PFS. Again, is it useful and a potentially good idea to use their houserules in non-PFS games? sure, hearing a good houserule and wanting to use it is fine and good. Make the game be better for your group. But they aren't official outside of PFS, and they say so often.
So please stop with this argument. Unless you have an "Official" source stating that something other than the PDT is "official" what they isn't "Official." Would I use these PFS clarifications in my games? Yes, they seem like good changes.
Secret Wizard, as I've seen you're posts before I also will refuse to argue further with you as I feel it wouldn't be an enjoyable use of my time. If you bring up something worth discussing though then I probably would continue.
Too bad were no longer discussing any builds...