{. . .}
Mesmerist Hypnotic Stare is all-in-all a better Evil Eye hex. It only reaches -3 instead of -2 but is done as a swift action, without duration and without target having knowledge of ever being effected(arguably more a fluff than anything because when do you ever see the BBEG change target to the witch/wizard/bard/cleric for casting 1 debuff). {. . .}
The bolded part is the one that bothers me the most. At least give the target a Perception or Sense Motive check or Will Save to notice, and I could call it good.
|
You might have DCs that are somewhat competitive with a 9th-level caster (your primary stat will rarely be as high as the 9th-level caster, as most Memserists have something else than spells they use, so won't be able to pump it up quite as much), but you miss out on the incredible Wizard/Sorc spell list, have fewer levels of spells, less versatility as a spont caster, get your spells later too.
|
|
If you look at my post history, you will see that I actually tell people who are interested in an enchantment based mesmerist to play a fey (possibly crossblooded) sorcerer instead of a mesmerist.
I did play a mesmerist in a campaign, and to be honest, I don't really think primary enchanter is a role that suits them well.
Just a comparison here:
Mesmerist:
Pros: -3 will with stare
Con: 6th level caster so less spells and lower level
Fey sorcerer:
Pros: +2 DC with fey, 9th level spells so more spells and higher level
Con: None, really
My experience playing a mesmerist (who started with a 19 CHA at level 1 so I really was trying to push the DCs) was that my spells were low level and I didn't really have much of them. So when the opponent beat the DC, that was that. No more spellcasting and time to do other stuff.
In your hypothetical example, the mesmerist has spent all of his/hear feats to be an enchanter, and honestly, they are still worse at enchanting than a fey sorcerer. Yes, the stare is -3 will and the fey sorcerer is only +2 DC, but you have to balance this with the fact that the sorcerer will be casting higher level spells which will pump the DCs up better for them.
If you want to factor in your feat progression of taking sorcerer eldritch heritage, I would say fine. I will counter that with the sorcerer being kitsune. So at level 20 they have +5 DC.
So I would honestly advise your hypothetical mesmerist to abandon their build and just play a fey sorcerer, possibly crossblooded with undead.
I think mesmerist is a hybrid class, and that means they are meant to do a bunch of things. They need the benefits that they have to the stare to help them do ANYTHING as far as enchanting, because they are more MAD than a SAD sorcerer and if they build intelligently, they probably should only be enchanting occasionally.
IF I were to rebuild my mesmerist (who since died and was replaced by a different character) I would start with a much lower CHA than 19 and honestly just choose mainly buff and out of combat spells for the character. I think this would play to their strengths more.
|
|
To follow up: If you want to play a tricksy character who OCCASIONALLY enchants but also fights and buffs/debuffs, then my recommendation would be to by all means try a mesmerist.
But if you honestly want to play a primary enchanter with a mesmerist, I think you will be disappointed if there is also a fey sorcerer in the party. This is because they are much, much better at the primary enchanter role than you are.
As an enchanter, you are really only as good as your highest level spell if you want to push DCs, and sorcerers have 9th level spells. The other lower level spells get reassigned to various buffs or utility spells. The sorcerer/wizard list has a LOT of utility.
If you really think your mesmerist is overpowered, I guess I would invite you to play it in the same team as a crossblooded fey/undead kitsune enchanter (who just pumps CHA and has okay dex, con and ignores everything else and puts favored class bonuses to enchanting). Have them follow your same feat progression so you are comparing apples to apples. My prediction: They are going to smoke you into irrelevancy. You will feel that your character is absolutely pointless, because you built feats for a primary caster for a class that is NOT a primary caster. So you are worse at primary casting, but because that is all you built for, the hybrid benefits of the mesmerist never really come into play.
|
Immunity to mind effects is actually pretty common. That shuts down just about everything a Mesmerist can do, including the stare(unless they spend a resource to pick up that talent, and even that is somewhat limited). I don't think they're overpowered, just easy to optimize for casting.
If you want a really strong enchantment user, then kitsune Fey bloodline Sorcerer is the way to go. DC for any enchantment spell they cast is 10 + spell level, + Cha +2 + 1/2 sorcerer level. By level 20 that's DC 30-ish first level spells(assuming they managed a 30 charisma. It is level 20 after all).
As noted, all your primary stare debuff does is bring your save DCs in line with full casters in the long run, and only for one save.
Hypothetical fight: my favorite, Rebirth Psychic vs. yours, Mesmerist. We'll give Mesmerist first go.
Mesmerist opens with swift action stare debuff, followed by Irresistible Dance to trigger Rule Minds. The spell succeeds, as does Rule Minds. Victory!
Psychic proceeds to retaliate, and since you aren't using Greater Possession 24/7 on a simulacrum of yourself to get immunity to mind-affecting spells from chumps who don't realize it without leaving a vulnerable body to coup de grace somewhere, you actually have to make the saves. Phrenic pool for boosted DC. And selecting an 8th level spell from the Wizard list means being able to target your weak fortitude save. Or maybe Time Stop plus a few rounds of preparation are in order? Or just Plane Shift/Teleport away.
High-level spells are really powerful in and of themselves. The Mesmerist may be better than full casters when it comes to targeting will saves, but it lacks the arsenal of options full-casters have.
And 3. The Mesmerist can use this ability when he's blind. It's hypnotic STARE how do you use this ability on a creature you can't even see?
That's easy. Blind or not you're still looking at them and forcing your will upon them in an insidious way. It's Bole Stare, not Bold Sight.
And 3. The Mesmerist can use this ability when he's blind. It's hypnotic STARE how do you use this ability on a creature you can't even see?That's easy. Blind or not you're still looking at them and forcing your will upon them in an insidious way. It's Bole Stare, not Bold Sight.
Plus, isn't there a failure chance?
Remember that you can only have one stare active at a time and can't stare down multiple enemies, so you're not that good against large crowds. Against single enemies you're a monster but single enemy encounters are kinda weak.
|
Except he doesn't even have to look at them. Really he doesn't even have to know theyre there. Just every turn throw out a 30 foot radius stare aura and see if you ping something.That's easy. Blind or not you're still looking at them and forcing your will upon them in an insidious way. It's Bole Stare, not Bold Sight.
This is false. The Mesmerist has to target one creature. If you are not aware of a creature, you cannot target it. You are limited to one swift action per round, and you can't target a blind square, because that is not a creature. You don't have a stare aura.
Hypnotic Stare (Su): A mesmerist can focus his stare on one creature within 30 feet as a swift action. That creature takes a –2 penalty on Will saving throws. This penalty changes to –3 at 8th level. A mesmerist can maintain his stare against only one opponent at a time; it remains in effect until the mesmerist stares at a new target, the opponent dies, the opponent moves farther than 30 feet away, or the mesmerist falls unconscious or dies. The mesmerist can remove the memory of his stare from the target's mind; the creature doesn't remember that it was affected (nor does it realize that it is currently being affected) unless the mesmerist allows it. The hypnotic stare is a psychic effect, and relies more on the mesmerist's focus than the target's perception of his stare. It can't be avoided in the same ways a gaze attack can. The mesmerist can use this ability even while blinded, but must succeed at a DC 20 concentration check to do so. Staring at a creature requires the mesmerist's focus, so if he uses a gaze attack or similar ability, he must target the subject of his hypnotic stare or voluntarily end the stare. The penalties from multiple mesmerists' stares don't stack, nor do they stack with penalties from witches' evil eye hexes. This is a mind-affecting effect.
I'm not sure how the Psychic would get to retaliate in your example? Are you saying thats what he would do if he went first? What allows him to break the dominate effect?
Similicrum isn't how he retaliates, it's how he adventures. In that example, Mesmerist targets somethings immune, from what I can tell.
|
|
stuffI want to agree with you but it doesn't say anything about targeting a creature just "focusing your stare". Not to mention again but you can do it blind and all you need to do with a dc 20 concentration check.
You Focus your stare on one creature within 30 feet. If you are aware of that creatures location you can do so, but if you are not aware, there is nothing you can focus on.
You Focus your stare on one creature within 30 feet. If you are aware of that creatures location you can do so, but if you are not aware, there is nothing you can focus on.stuffI want to agree with you but it doesn't say anything about targeting a creature just "focusing your stare". Not to mention again but you can do it blind and all you need to do with a dc 20 concentration check.
without any actual rules telling us wtf they mean by focus, its really up in the air. Although im sure the intent wasnt to just ping things willy nilly
If there's a 50% chance it's not immune. Besides, it's already being controlled by the Psychic through Greater Possession.
I'm not sure how the Psychic would get to retaliate in your example? Are you saying thats what he would do if he went first? What allows him to break the dominate effect?Psychic proceeds to retaliate, and since you aren't using Greater Possession 24/7 on a simulacrum of yourself to get immunity to mind-affecting spells from chumps who don't realize it without leaving a vulnerable body to coup de grace somewhere, you actually have to make the saves. Phrenic pool for boosted DC. And selecting an 8th level spell from the Wizard list means being able to target your weak fortitude save. Or maybe Time Stop plus a few rounds of preparation are in order? Or just Plane Shift/Teleport away.
Fun thing about possession spells. If somebody hits the creature you're possessing with a mind-affecting effect, it targets the host's mind unless they specifically target the possessing creature. Since the host's mind can't do anything, there's generally no effect. So the Psychic can just live inside another body with better physical stats and a spare pool of hitpoints. With Mindblank up, it's almost impossible to detect. Full casters can pull stuff like that off thanks to 9th level spells.
Mesmerist is not OP, the class is good but has serious weaknesses. For one thing, immunity to mind effects is pretty common. For another thing, their Fort save sucks. Literally any monster that forces them to make a Fort save will wreck the Mesmerist.
Also, they're not 9 level casters. In my experience, those are the only classes that break the game. 6 level casters are actually the most balanced of all; they're not useless like martials, and they're not stupid broken like full casters.
Wait, how is their fort save any worse than a wizard, or an oracle, or a bard, or anyone else with poor fort save progression and no inclass booster?
Where does it say that you effect the host's mind?
The possessed creature still has a mind of its own, its will is dominated. Please site the exact reference to this rule otherwise please don't post homebrew in here, I want honest answers based on the game environment not your concept.
It's from the possession rules in Occult Adventures, the rules interaction section.
When both the host creature and a possessing creature occupy a body at the same time, a charm or compulsion effect can target either one.
However, the caster must be aware of the possessing creature's presence in the host body in order to target it. Otherwise, the effect targets the host by default, generally with limited effect.
The issue shouldn't be whether the Mesmerist is better vs. a 9th level caster, it should be whether the Mesmerist is better in combination with a 9th level caster. Build your party so that you have both and your party members can also benefit from the -3 to Will saves. It's to all Will saves all round from all sources, not just the Mesmerist himself.
Ah, sorry, I realized what I said initially was very unclear. The Psychic possesses a simulacrum of themselves 24/7 with Greater Possession. When the Mesmerist comes along, he doesn't know that there are actually two potential targets, and so the default is that the compulsion spell targets the host (in this case, simulacrum). With the host's terrible saves, this easily succeeds, but has no effect (the possession overrides the compulsion). This allows the Psychic to retaliate.
My personal thinking is they're better than some 9th level casters at one thing they specialize in and are completely incapable of beating them in any other thing. They're basically super duper specialists. And being better than a 9th level caster at something is a REALLY REALLY good thing.
Also if a 9th level casters focuses into enchanting when they encounter a mindless creature they can, Stop time, Gate in a Solar, Wish/Miracle without any investment what so ever or give disintegrating them a whack. A Mesmerist runs into the same problem and they have a 50/50 chance of being a complete none factor each turn or she can hit him for 6D6+10 precision damage Whoop.
Basically yeah Mesmerists are really good enchanters, better than some 9th level caster's at it, however a 9th level caster is a 9th level caster with 9th level spells so if enchanting doesn't work they do something else, a Mesmerist sighs and hopes the party can pick up the slack.
Also they never get dominate monster which is a pretty big nerf compared to a 9th level caster.
Finally it's not like only the Mesmerist get's to play with Hypnotic stare it's a debuff your whole party gets to benefit from, it's kind of like casting haste on a full martial party. Only you're casting, 'easy mode' for a full caster party.
Oh and one more thing
The average player will play them as a bard type utility caster not a turbo caster as I initially described
What a player looking to make a turbo caster can do with a God wizard or a blaster Sorc makes what you can do with a Mesmerist look completely pathetic.
So basically a normal player will make an anti bard, which will be weaker than a normal 9th level caster
A Turbo min/max player will make a character who is better than a 9th level caster at one specific thing, but still overall have less options and be weaker overall compared to a normal 9th level caster.
A turbo min/max mesmerist will completely pail in comparison to a min/max 9th level caster. So at what point exactly does a Mesmerist become overpowerd?