I play in a Pathfinder society campaign group. Im new to pen-and-paper RPGs. I came from Baldur's Gate pc games before the Pathfinder RPG so many these problems are new to me.
Every adventuring group needs healers, but nobody wants to be a walking heal dispenser. I want to help people with high level divine spells, but caster have poor combat rules, few to none bonus feats, and too many stats splitting up a limited pool of points.
If Pathfinder Society allowed rolling for stats just giving a Cleric High wisdom, strength, constitution, and maybe dexterity would simple and easy.
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So #1 Stats. The basic Cleric requires Wisdom for spells and it needs to be very high to cast the higher level ones at a minimum. Charisma is also necessary for Channel Energy which is far more practical for healing, but Charisma is also the least useful stat.
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are secondary, but also necessary if nothing more than to carry armor, equipment, and general not dying. Offensively I think using advanced firearms might be useful on a cleric as it doesnt require as high strength, dexterity, or feats like optimizing is a Composite longbow would.
#2 Alternative options. Crusader Archetype sacrifices one spell per day on each tier for some bonus feats. Heavy armor, martial weapons, and other others.
Hybrid classes could make "Off-clerics":
Warpriest has bonus feats and doesnt require as high Charisma or Wisdom, but loses spells per day, any access to spells over tier 6 and has fewer/weaker channel energy use.
Inquisitor has better combat special abilities, but much reduced spellcasting and no channel.
Paladin is the most combat oriented, but also the worst at spellcasting
Mystic Theurge Prestige class goes in the opposite direction by being a Cleric/Wizard. Does not grow in Channel Energy, but alot of spells.
Multi-classing, at least for a few levels gives access to alot. For example, one Fighter level gives Heavy armor, martial weapons, and a bonus combat feat. A Rogue is easy skill points. These unfortunately mean less Cleric levels.
#3 equipment, Cleric's have little access to anything by default. Other hybrid classes have more access, and as previously mentioned mtuli-classing and give easy access without using alot of feats
#4 Skills, Clerics have the lowest number of skill points per level, and dont even have Perception as a class skill.
Multi-classing a Rogue for skill points, class skills would be pretty useful. Two levels would give Evasion, Trapfinding, and a Rogue talent.
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Sigh, I really miss in Baldur's gate putting a cleric in Full Plate armor, shield, using Shield of Faith and Strength of One to make a Strength 18-25 Cleric and bash people.
I think that's still possible, if you're willing to make some trade-off choices. If you're going to use your spells for buffing, you won't need a really high Wisdom. If you'd rather spend your time in melee, go with a lower Charisma and use wands for out-of-combat healing (instead of channels).
Maybe the following guide could be a source of inspiration?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWctNG05X0JINm8/view
The best way to heal HP is to use items instead of spells. A wand of cure light wounds is the most cost effective healing in the game bar none. What is more difficult to deal with is condition removal. Even with condition removal you are often able get by with scrolls or potions. If the right items are not available you can leave open a spell slot for emergencies, or wait until the next day when you can rememorize your spells.
While warpreists get slower spell progression and lose the higher level spells they also get swift action buffing which means they can buff and attack in the same round. This is an incredibly useful ability that is well worth the lesser spell casting. If this is for PFS you are generally limited to 12th level so clerics max out at 6th level spells where warpreists get 4th level. They also get swift action healing to keep them fighting longer.
Warpreists also get heavy armor and martial weapons which along with the bonus feats allows them to actually fight effectively. Since all their abilities key off of WIS, CHA can be a dump stat.
A wapreist with some wands and scrolls is easily able to do what you want. Use magic items to heal and save your spell for buffing yourself.
I too advocate Warpriest
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If you want to be a warrior cleric, nothing stops you. Pathfinder does that very well.
Step 1. Decide what you want to bring to the table.
A. Cleric. Full cleric spellcasting, channel energy for healing, limited action economy until Quicken Spell comes online at 7th level (with magical lineage).
B. Warpriest. Limited cleric spellcasting. Eventual channel energy. Better action economy with swift action spell buffs.
C. Inquisitor. Slightly more limited spontaneous spellcasting. Skill monkey skill points and skills. Swift action non-spell buffs (judgment and bane).
All of them work, but the warpriest and inquisitor are a little more smashy than the cleric version. However if you want to make a Baldur's gate (or 3e) style battle cleric who brings the full suite of clerical spellcasting to the table:
A. Early feats and abilities. Str 18 (16+2), Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Traits: Fate's favored (make your divine favor better), magical lineage: Divine favor (lets you quicken divine favor starting at 7th level to get the action economy that Warpriests and Inquisitors enjoy).
Feats: Heavy armor proficiency (or take Crusader). Eventually, you'll want Power Attack and Weapon Focus and Quicken Spell. The rest is gravy. Since you don't have a great use for the second L1 feat (Toughness, Dodge, and Improved Initiative are your best core options IMO and all are mediocre--though if you go with a reach weapon, combat reflexes is a good option), you might choose half-orc (darkvision, the sacred tattoo alt racial ability to synergize with fate's favored, and greataxe and falchion proficiencies to expand your deity choices beyond those with good favored weapons), half-elf (low-light vision, save bonus vs enchantment, and the ancestral arms alt racial ability to start with an exotic weapon like falcata, dwarven dorm duergar, etc), or the human dual talent alt-racial ability to go up to a 16 wisdom.
Deities: You can get a good favored weapon from deity choice. Shelyn offers the glaive which is an upgrade over longspear in the reach weapon category. Gorum offers the greatsword which is always good. Ragathiel offers the bastard sword if you want a high base damage one-handed weapon and like his domain options (destruction (rage subdomain) is pretty nice).
For domains, you will ideally want domains that give swift action abilities rather than standard action ones and pay close attention to subdomains. I'm fond of Glory-heroism, Destruction-rage, and Good/law-Archon but there are a lot of good options. Growth subdomain is also a popular choice for the swift action enlarge ability.
Advancement: Wisdom is the usual choice but if you want to keep being smashy as you level up, choose strength instead. Get yourself a headband of wisdom and you'll still be able to cast your highest level spells. Just ignore the spells that give enemies saves and use your spells for buffing and problem solving with the odd bit of summoning as the situation requires.
Tactics: At early levels, cast divine favor for +2 to hit and damage (thanks fate's favored!) and smash face. Precast bless when you get a chance. Bull's strength is commonly recommended but unless you can pre-cast it's not much better than divine favor so I'd keep a bunch of utility spells handy at 2nd level. Holy ice weapon is pretty darn good for big fights. For third level spells, heroism (if you have the heroism subdomain) is amazing and prayer is a pretty good opener with fate's favored. At 4th level, you can quicken divine favor (thanks Magical Lineage) and catch up to warpriests in the action economy for a couple fights per day. At 5th level spells, righteous might comes on line. Quickened divine favor and righteous might will make you feel like your Baldur's gate cleric bashing people with impunity.
PFS uses a 20 point buy to determine stats. So no chance of hoping for really high stats because of good rolls.
Have you considered the Oradin?
Their casting will be poor, but their healing is nearly unmatched, and thanks to Paladin, you'll have solid damage potential.
1 Oracle Channel revelation
2 Paladin
3 Paladin
4 Oracle Life link revelation
5 Oracle
6 Paladin
From there you can add another Oracle level if you like, continue all the way with Paladin, or even move into the Holy Vindicator Prestige class to strengthen your channels, and improve your Oracle spellcasting.
Depending on how healy you want to get, the Hospitaler is a solid Paladin archetype which grants you a separate entire pool for channeling, so with Holy Vindicator it'll strengthen the Paladin channels, and your Oracle channels together.
You lose your first level feat choice as Fey Foundling is absolutely critically important and needed as your first level feat, but from there you're pretty free to build as you like. I'd just strongly recommend against going ranged. It's far too feat intensive.
Well Im really trying to keep those high level priest spells. I wonder if there are any workarounds to improve the cleric. There are alot of limitations with the Pathfinder Society, so I am hoping that rather than retire my characters at level 12, Ill take them into online games. Thats the plan anyways.
Guided is a magical weapon effect that means wisdom and not strength determines attack and damage bonuses.
Guided hand(requires channeled smite feat) gives that effect to your Deity's favored weapon.
Advanced Firearms are one idea as they use touch AC and have either multiple shots or area damage. Thinking about Divine Power and a repeater Rifle gives me a smile.
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The Crusader archetype is feels closer to what a Dungeons and dragons Cleric should be with heavy armor, but still having high level priest spells available. I would lower charisma alot so Channel energy would have less uses per day. Or I could just use my level 1 cleric feat for Heavy armor proficiency if armor is all I wanted as losing so many spells for s few feats may be a big loss. Or pick 1 level from a class with heavy armor. That is the most efficient method.
Warpriest is definitely a warrior but I dont want to lose all the spells especially the buffs. Those are a major reason to pick a Cleric after all. I kind of like it, but dont like how everything besides the bonus feats are "[blank] uses per day" and last only a few rounds or minutes. I know I could use Blessing of Fervor and Sacred Weapon to clobber a boss, but its all http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse. If Im not using anything, then the warpriest is just a subpar Fighter.
edit: this may be outdated, it took a while to write up.
I dont think I can actually make what I am trying to with a cleric. Im locked in a loop, as what I trying to do is basically make a Warpriest wit higher level spells Or cleric that has bonus feats.
caster cleric,
If caster cleric then don't worry about melee, you're casting.
Buffing cleric,
Keep wisdom low, all you need is to be able to cast your buffs, don't need more than that.
PFS,
There's relatively few options for lv 12+ in PFS. If you want to try I'd plan ahead now what you're going for when you hit lv12. Otherwise higher than that isn't useful.
Warpriest,
Warpreist gets a lot of the good buffs, AND they don't need as many to be a good fighter. Uses per day isn't all that limiting. If you have 6 uses of fervor a day you can use 2 per fight for 3 fights. The blessings aren't things you need to use every fight.
All my calculations I do for warpriest assume only 1 fervor for divine favor and then using sacred weapon for some fights. That's all it needs to be good for a fight, so you'll always have enough for every fight in a day and you can go big if you really wanted to.
I would go Warpriest or Battle Oracle..
The age old problem of the cleric is the bizarre in-built assumption of Paizo that you will always still want to hit things with a mace and hold a shield, irrespective of your build.... it quite literally permeates the class!
The prob with this being that hitting things effectively is very feat and ability score intensive (things that a cleric just cant spare!) and if you're not set up properly you will very quickly fade into the background.
IMO the battle cleric is one of the least effective ways to play a cleric.
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Again, can't go wrong with this build.
Archetypes: None.
Race: Human
Traits: Seeker, Reactionary
FCB: Add to CL to overcome outsider SR or HP.
Gear: Breastplate, then full-plate, use a bastard sword and a buckler, keep a longbow just in case.
Attributes: 13 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 18 (16+2) WIS, 10 CHA
Feat and Talent Choices:
(1) Channel Smite, HUMAN: Guided Hand, DEITY: Feronia, DOMAINS: Liberation + Destruction (Catastrophe), CHANNEL: Positive
(3) Heavy Armor Proficiency
(4) +1 STR
(5) Power Attack
(7) Improved Initiative
(8) +1 WIS
(9) Shield Focus (Buckler)
(11) Unhindering Shield
(12) +1 WIS
Playstyle: The first step to making this build work is Guided Hand, allowing the use of WIS for accuracy. The domains used are actually quite synergistic - the Catastrophe subdomain has the always useful Destructive Smite, it’s most useful feature is Deadly Weather, which can a) heavily penalize ranged attack rolls, providing some defense from snipers; and b) create difficult terrain... and thanks to the Liberation domain, you can ignore that difficult terrain! Using Liberation powers to aid the rest of the party while simultaneously using damaging Catastrophe powers to render foes dead. Since you don’t have the points to invest in Charisma, you just choose to channel positive energy to get the party back in shape between fights rather than in combat.
And don’t forget you have Channel Smite! It will let you bring a reckoning bomb of positive energy upon undead and such.
You don't do much damage and my biggest thing about clerics is you can only do one thing per round. Hit things OR cast a spell. If you're planning on hitting things then build appropriately. If you're planning on casting a spell most rounds then build accordingly and don't worry about trying to hit things. The times I see a cleric fail is when they are trying to do both and end up doing neither well.
Example, High wis and low physical stats and tries to fight.
High physical and casts a spell for the first 5 rounds and only half work because save DC is low.
Even
High wis, casts a spell every round, spent lots of money and feats on fighting.
Like, you need to decide what your battle plan is starting around lv 4-5 and then build to it.
True to be most effective you need to focus on 1 type of thing.
Do you want to be decent at fighting, buff yourself into being good, and have some spells available for utility?
Build a cleric with around 15-16 starting wis, and good strength and con. Wield a two-handed weapon of some sort and pick up heavy armor proficiency. You use your spells to buff yourself and your party and have some utility. Never ever cast a spell with a save. It's not going to work.
The other type of cleric will have poor physical stats and focus on wisdom almost exclusive buffing his allies and debuffing his enemies.
I have a player who's been making great use of the Blessed Hammer feat, coupled with Channel Smite and Guided Hand to have WIS to hit. Requires Torag in PFS, and you must own the correct books. You may have difficulty getting channel to damage without access to Versatile Channeler though.
Versatile Channeler doesn't work with Torag. Torag is good, so channel positive is set. Thus you don't have a choice and versatile channeler doesn't work.
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Like, you need to decide what your battle plan is starting around lv 4-5 and then build to it.
+1 to this. Clerics have a lot of things they can do, but without an incredibly high point buy (or incredible rolling) they can't be good at everything. Decide what you want to be, melee combatant, caster, bad touch/channeler, or just go for the generalist approach and accept that you'll never be the best at something, but will have many times where you can contribute.
And since there's mention of putting your 4/8/12 level stat ups into wisdom, I would say don't do that, unless you go with a guided hand build like Secret Wizard suggested. If you start with a 14 in wisdom, you will never need to put a stat up into wisdom to be able to cast spells. Headbands of wisdom will be sufficient. Putting your stat ups into your highest ability scores is the most efficient use of point buys, since going from 15 to 16 strength in point buy is 3 points, but one stat up, and going from 12 wisdom to 14 is also 3 points, but 2 stat ups.
Also, if you're worried about losing spell casting from dispel magic suppressing your headband, I have a level 16 druid in PFS who functions very similarly to the warrior cleric build, and it's never been an issue for him.
You don't do much damage and my biggest thing about clerics is you can only do one thing per round. Hit things OR cast a spell. If you're planning on hitting things then build appropriately. If you're planning on casting a spell most rounds then build accordingly and don't worry about trying to hit things. The times I see a cleric fail is when they are trying to do both and end up doing neither well.
Example, High wis and low physical stats and tries to fight.
High physical and casts a spell for the first 5 rounds and only half work because save DC is low.
Even
High wis, casts a spell every round, spent lots of money and feats on fighting.
Like, you need to decide what your battle plan is starting around lv 4-5 and then build to it.
You would be surprised by how much damage this deals.
High accuracy means you can freely use Power Attack with a 2H Bastard Sword, plus all the buffs you add to it (particularly Holy). Plus you can Channel Smite undead.Not to mention you are also providing a ton of utility using the Catastrophe/Liberation combo.
You are obviously not a Fighter in terms of raw output, but you don't trail too far behind and you have a ton of AC and utility.
You're adding 3 damage from str.
power attack is on the 3/4 bab progression.
Then you're spending rounds of combat to buff, unless you have a list of decently long buffs that you can have pre-cast.
And your Catastrophe has to change what you're doing every round so you can have difficult terrain every other level.
I mean it's an okay build. But still, what benefit are you getting from having your wis so high opposed to having your str and wis swap and just raising str like normal? As far as I can see you'll get a damage increase for not spending 2 feats.
EDIT: Your damage is lower than an expert of equal level pre buffs. Not a baseline I'd like to start at. You could at least be equal to an expert pre buffs if you're planning on fighting.
EDIT2: I've made a list of DPR for classes at levels. lv5 Figher DPR is 12.495, expert is 6.3525, yours is even lower than that pre buffs. That is a lot of DPR to try and buff up to get close. Now I do admit you have cleric spells, but this is to show that trying to be a caster that also does melee just kinda fails. Fighter is ranking in at 32 of the 61 classes I'm looking at. Expert is last.
High WIS provides more spells, more accuracy with Guided Hand, and higher spell DC.
Sure, an expert has higher damage... unless I'm buffed. At level 5, I can already cast Divine Favor and Bull's Strength all day.
That makes my damage into +11 for 1d10+12 (19-20/2x), which is 11.38 something DPR.
I know what you'll say -- "but the Fighter deals more damage without needing to prebuff!"
Yeah, but the Fighter cannot do that while having a ton of extra spells to heal, cure, damage undead, buff others, etc.
And you'll get more powerful buffs and utility, while the Fighter you made (which I'm guessing is taking - blech - Weapon Specialization for some reason beyond me) is probably just getting more damage.
Try it before you knock it.
by, "At level 5, I can already cast Divine Favor and Bull's Strength all day." are you saying that you have them up effectively all day, or that you can cast them for each fight?
spending 1 round to buff for me is acceptable, spending 2 just to be mediocre doesn't seem like a good plan for combat.
So going wis based costs 2 feats to be worse at combat and better at offensive spells and save some money. If you're casting offensive spells you're not attacking, if you're needing to spend rounds in combat to buff you're delaying more by casting offensive spells. If you're casting offensive spells, why not just keep casting offensive spells and take feats to help spellcasting rather than taking combat feats you're not using? If you're not actually casting offensive spells in combat, why not have Str and save 2 feats and get extra damage?
And note, fighter is 32 of 61, he's a nice baseline, not actually good.
So sure, he can do some damage, if that's what you're okay with then it's a fine build. It has the fortune of being a 9th level caster so you can't be that bad off. But I just don't see it being sold as a combat cleric when it's taking 2 feats to be a worse combat cleric than a combat cleric. Sure you're a better caster cleric than the combat cleric, but that wasn't the point of being a combat cleric.
Str 12 can work.
12 14 14 10 16 8
Better
10 14 14 10 16 10
Human racial bonus into WIS (18)
Fates Favored
Lvl 1 feats: channel smite; guided hand
The other option is to go power turtle as a dwarf and do nothing but heal until level 5 when you can have all the feats, going human pays off faster.
Blessed Hammer lets you deliver inflict spells through your warhammer, which can add up. High WIS works for this build because it adds to hit and bonus spells.
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Guided hand looks like a trap unless you are using Blessed Hammer.
The suggested guided hand build supposedly uses power attack for damage and starts with an 18 Wisdom with 13 Strength to qualify for Power Attack and 14 Con.
Alternately, you could run with an 18 strength, 13 Con, and 14 Wisdom. You have fewer spells which hurts a little and lower DCs which doesn't make a difference since unless you do blessed hammer you're not casting spells with DCs. You also have two free feats--say, Toughness to even out the hit points and Weapon Focus or Furious Focus to keep the math even.
The difference between the characters in combat is huge. The strength build actually has higher attack bonuses due to feat difference--Weapon Focus or Furious Focus will add up to at least +1 to attack. And the basic damage difference is weapon +1 + Power Attack for guided Hand vs weapon +6+power attack for the strength build.
If you add buffs into the equation, the difference becomes more pronounced. Divine Favor and Divine Power have equal effects but given the chance to prepare, bull's strength adds +2 to hit and +3 damage to the strength build and only +3 damage to the guided hand build. At level 9, Righteous Might adds another +1 to hit and +3 damage plus weapon dice increase to the strength build. But the guided hand build actually loses attack bonus (from size and the strength increase doesn't offset it).
If you have a level 9 cleric using a single attack with Bull's Strength, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, and Power Attack going on a bastard sword, the strength build is base 2d8+19 (13 str, 6 power attack) vs 2d8+13 (+7 str, +6 power attack) at an attack bonus +6 more than the guided hand build (+2 from Bull's Strength, +2 from Righteous Might, +2 from Furious Focus).
There's a huge effectiveness difference both unbuffed and especially in the buffed power ceiling they both operate under. Guided hand is a trap option for a battle cleric.
Guided hand looks like a trap unless you are using Blessed Hammer.
Post to prove this.
See, this is exactly what I was getting at. If you're going to be a combat cleric go combat cleric. If you're going to be a caster go caster. Don't pretend to be a combat cleric with feats while pretending to be a caster with stats as it's less effective at whatever you do.
I now dont know what to think of clerics now.
The basis of any cleric/priest/white mage is a Spellcaster that that focuses on "white magic" that covers healing and support spells as opposed to "black magic" that covers damage and negative conditions to your enemy.
Dungeons and dragons doesnt have many effective Healing and Damage spells as they often do not scale in power, and rarely will a low level spell be useful for long. There are no common-use healing spells or attacks spells. Any ability needs to be balanced by being practical but relatively weak, or powerful but with drawbacks, and what qualifies in both areas changes often,. Flamestrike is a powerful scaling cleric attack spell, but having only a few uses it has to annihilate an enemy every time is used to be effective. The Wizard Haste on the other hand temporarily buffs you entire party from the first time you can cast it, and I doubt it ever stops being useful.
For most classes I want them to have high physical stats, backed up by special abilities like spells. Clerics are specialist divine casters so eventually they will need passive 19 Wisdom.
From the best Ive heard about Clerics is that they can use their buffing spells to improve themselves and/or the party, almost completely making up for lacking in some practical stats(such as lowered BAB).
Now I have people saying THAT is bad. So what do Clerics do then?
A combat cleric being built like a combat cleric works fine as a combat cleric.
A caster cleric (the "cleric/white mage/priest" of other games) of other games works well enough as a caster cleric, granted (the "cleric/white mage/priest" of other games) usually are healers, and healing doesn't work the same in pathfinder.
If you're game isn't going to reach lv17 then you don't need a 19wis ever. PFS ends at 11, that means all you need is a 16 at lv11. That is starting with a 14 and getting a headband or an iounstone or putting your level ups into it.
A combat cleric toting a 20wis from lv1 is wasting it's stats and should be a caster cleric.
Guided hand looks like a trap unless you are using Blessed Hammer.
The suggested guided hand build supposedly uses power attack for damage and starts with an 18 Wisdom with 13 Strength to qualify for Power Attack and 14 Con.
Alternately, you could run with an 18 strength, 13 Con, and 14 Wisdom. You have fewer spells which hurts a little and lower DCs which doesn't make a difference since unless you do blessed hammer you're not casting spells with DCs. You also have two free feats--say, Toughness to even out the hit points and Weapon Focus or Furious Focus to keep the math even.
The difference between the characters in combat is huge. The strength build actually has higher attack bonuses due to feat difference--Weapon Focus or Furious Focus will add up to at least +1 to attack. And the basic damage difference is weapon +1 + Power Attack for guided Hand vs weapon +6+power attack for the strength build.
If you add buffs into the equation, the difference becomes more pronounced. Divine Favor and Divine Power have equal effects but given the chance to prepare, bull's strength adds +2 to hit and +3 damage to the strength build and only +3 damage to the guided hand build. At level 9, Righteous Might adds another +1 to hit and +3 damage plus weapon dice increase to the strength build. But the guided hand build actually loses attack bonus (from size and the strength increase doesn't offset it).
If you have a level 9 cleric using a single attack with Bull's Strength, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, and Power Attack going on a bastard sword, the strength build is base 2d8+19 (13 str, 6 power attack) vs 2d8+13 (+7 str, +6 power attack) at an attack bonus +6 more than the guided hand build (+2 from Bull's Strength, +2 from Righteous Might, +2 from Furious Focus).
There's a huge effectiveness difference both unbuffed and especially in the buffed power ceiling they both operate under. Guided hand is a trap option for a battle cleric.
You are missing the point that the WIS build is not going for damage. It's going for damage AND the spellcasting. All that WIS grants you more daily uses of Domain abilities and spells, which is your main function.
You deal damage, and quite effectively, when the situation is called for.
Also, I'm not seeing how the Power Attack build has more attack. More damage? Sure, why not. It's just damage.
Note that by level 9, you should have Belts of +4 STR and WIS so Bull's Strength/Owl's Wisdom prebuffing is not necessary.
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You have a lot of options with Pathfinder clerics.
You can go hardcore battle cleric like the 18 strength/14 Wis, strength advancing cleric I outlined. You use buff spells to improve yourselves and the party and toss out the occasional heal, mass heal, or summon monster in combat. You should end up being able to perform close to the warriors in combat while still packing a lot of out of combat utility.
With an elf, half-elf, or a god who provides a bow as favored weapon, you can also go for an archer cleric. (Essential feats: Bow proficiency, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, deadly aim). Like the hardcore battle cleric, you toss out buffs and the occasional heals and do ranged damage (augmented by divine favor).
You can go for a support character who tosses buffs as his primary contribution in combat along with the occasional sound burst, hold person, flame strike, greater command, destruction or heal spell. That kind of cleric may pack selective channel and some channel buffing abilities like Beacon of Hope too. With a small investment (14 strength and power attack), the character can also make a meaningful contribution with his mace, longspear or longsword if buffed (though no-one will mistake him for a warrior), but will be pretty pathetic in that role without buffs.
You can go for a combo focus like the reach cleric guide advocates and mix a moderate investment in melee combat (probably fate's favored, combat reflexes, power attack, 16+ strength) with focus on a alternate abilities (Augment summoning and sacred summons is the classic guide reach cleric's secondary focus but channeling (selective channeling, quick channel, Beacon of Hope) would be another good focus or a good additional focus). Evil clerics can also focus on negative channel as a primary or secondary offensive mode in addition to reach (especially with alternate channel abilities such as rulership).
Depending upon your deity, you can also make a hardcore focus on offensive spells. Base cleric can use fire domain for burning hands, fireball and wall of fire and some of the standard cleric offensive spells like command, sound burst, and flame strike. Archetypes like theologian that let you cast or prepare multiple domain spells can let some clerics pack near wizard level blasting. Such a cleric might completely ignore physical combat ability and have his longspear or mace be a mere formality like a wizard's staff.
You can also go for a hardcore focus in healing and buffs and largely ignore offensive combat ability. I don't think that's optimal but if you do so you probably have the Wisdom to mix in offensive spellcasting as needed and with the right party you can be very effective. (The healing enables the warriors to sacrifice more offense for defense and still live, the approach tends to suffer from fragility because if one of your offense monsters goes down despite your best efforts it's harder for you to pick up the slack).
And I'm sure there are a lot of other effective ways to build clerics. You posted bemoaning the lack of options for a Baldur's Gate II style battle cleric. It can still be done (and it's not even that hard), you just have to do it deliberately--it doesn't happen just by being a cleric in pathfinder.
Str builds get accuracy and damage from str boosts. guided hand doesn't so bulls str is just damage for guided hand. Plus str build has free feats to get accuracy boosters.
And the build is for a combat cleric, where spells aren't your main function. If spells are your main function just focus on spells and leave your martial abilities alone, no point throwing resources into something that you're not planning on actually using.
If you're spending a spell to compensate for your low physical stats to to fighting than you should just have the good physical stats, now you don't "need" the spell, and if you use it you're even better. And you have basically the same amount of spells since you aren't using them to make up for your weakness.
Sometimes you need to do both, and the flexibility of the class is what makes it so good.
For example, in a party of Rogue, Wizard and Gunslinger, you are much better off being the Guided Hand frontliner who casts rather than a straight battle cleric or a straight caster. Same would apply to something like Magus, UnMonk and Sorcerer.
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<SNIP>
There's a huge effectiveness difference both unbuffed and especially in the buffed power ceiling they both operate under. Guided hand is a trap option for a battle cleric.
You are missing the point that the WIS build is not going for damage. It's going for damage AND the spellcasting. All that WIS grants you more daily uses of Domain abilities and spells, which is your main function.
You deal damage, and quite effectively, when the situation is called for.
Also, I'm not seeing how the Power Attack build has more attack. More damage? Sure, why not. It's just damage.
Note that by level 9, you should have Belts of +4 STR and WIS so Bull's Strength/Owl's Wisdom prebuffing is not necessary.
A. You previously posted that "You would be surprised by how much damage this deals.
High accuracy means you can freely use Power Attack with a 2H Bastard Sword, plus all the buffs you add to it (particularly Holy). Plus you can Channel Smite undead."
Combined with being an answer to the original poster who appears to want a combat monster cleric, it sure sounds like you were touting the damage the guided hand cleric can do.
B. The strength build has more attack bonus because
1. Though they start out with the same stat bonus and presumably increase at the same rate:
a) The strength build has two feats to play with. For the easiest comparison, I picked Furious Focus and Weapon Focus. Each of those would be a +1 or more to hit. (Practically, the guided hand build will eventually catch up if he wants those feats but the cleric's limited feats mean it will take a long time and even by level 7 or so the strength cleric will still have some important combat feats the guided hand cleric can't afford such as Heavy Armor Proficiency and Quicken Spell).
b) The strength build picks up attack bonus from the standard melee buffs such as bull's strength and righteous might. The guided hand build does not.
c) "It's only damage" is exactly the wrong way to look at things if you want your character to be effective in combat. The kind of damage difference that we are discussing is usually going to save an attack on an enemy and at low-mid levels will frequently be the difference between one-shotting and needing two hits to drop a non-boss opponent. When you're up against an enemy with 14 hp, the difference between 1d10+4 and 1d10+10 is huge. (60% vs 10% to one-shot and zero vs non-trivial chance to need 3 hits). In mid-levels where we're talking 2d8+23 avg 32 vs 2d8+17 avg 26 (I forgot to include fate's favor+divine favor in the previous figures), it's also a big deal.
-if your opponent has 30 hp, it's one hit vs 2 hits.
-35 to 52 hp it's not as bit a deal. Both probably need two hits though the higher damage guy will get some lucky one-shots that the guided hand guy doesn't and is more likely to finish off someone wounded by a spell or the fighter in one shot.
-53 hp and up it's a big deal again.
C. Wealth by level has wealth at 46,000 at level 9. That's unlikely to afford +4 to strength and Wisdom--maybe one or the other but not guaranteed. You've probably got a +3 cloak of resistance, +2 or +3 armor, maybe a +1 or +2 shield, and a +2 or +3 weapon, and a +2 stat item or two. (The battle cleric may also have boots of speed). If your other items are on the low end, you might afford one +4 and one +2 item but two +4 items is not very practical.
Having high wisdom does have side benefits (attack spells are an option and you get more bonus spells--though not that many more, it will usually be one spell of your highest level and maybe (depending upon level) one of the next highest level and eventually some lower level ones that don't make much difference) and encourages a different style of play, but the guided hand version is just not as effective at dealing the beatdown--either starting from zero (and this is really it's big problem: that, start from zero it doesn't meet the benchmarks for effectiveness. 1d10+1 is not a viable combatant) or in peak performance mode.
Sometimes you need to do both, and the flexibility of the class is what makes it so good.
For example, in a party of Rogue, Wizard and Gunslinger, you are much better off being the Guided Hand frontliner who casts rather than a straight battle cleric or a straight caster. Same would apply to something like Magus, UnMonk and Sorcerer.
In both parties I'd prefer if the cleric was one or the other and not bad at both. This "hybrid" cleric you're proposing would never be a better fit than one that does it's job well.
For both parties, what do you see yourself doing more often? Full attacking or casting spells. Cause "mix and matching based off of need" isn't cutting anything cause you need to prepare your list. If you're buffing to fight then you have primarily buff spells. If your a caster you have caster spells. If you're this "hybrid" you split and have an even shorter day than normal? Since you can buff half as often, and you're needing more buffs to work as a combatant.
Guided Hand while an option isnt really appealing.
For one, it takes 2 feats, and Channel Smite is only useful if a you can use channel energy, 2 have charges of it ready, and 3 fight undead alot.
Second, if you need Guided Hand to replace strength with Wisdom, you probably dont have the physical stats to have a high AC or even carry sufficient armor.
Third, it only works on Deity favored weapons.
So the whole thing feels like a waste for just having balanced strength instead of maxing out Wisdom.
Guided as a weapon property is alot better, because you can use it on ranged weapons, say a Revolver. Yes have a Warpriest or Inquisitor with a magically Guided gun, until an FAQ kills that.
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Im wondering about a Mystic Theurge. I wouldnt be able to use armor without Arcane Armor feats and Mithril, but access to both Wizard and Priest spells would be more versatile if less specialized than a 100% caster cleric.
In Theory, I could combine both magics AND later gains level in whatever class. Sanctuary+intensified Shocking Grasp might be nice to walk right up to an enemy and zap them to death.
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So the Warrior Cleric is actually possible without maxed out stats, just not as practical as a full BAB warrior. I dont know if there is any way to improve on it? Putting a level in Fighter gives 3 feats worth, in exchange for 2 spells per day lost in a standard level 20 campaign, but 3 spells and 1 tier of channel energy in Pathfinder society games.
I'm wondering about a Mystic Theurge. I wouldn't be able to use armor without Arcane Armor feats and Mithril, but access to both Wizard and Priest spells would be more versatile if less specialized than a 100% caster cleric.
In Theory, I could combine both magics AND later gains level in whatever class. Sanctuary+intensified Shocking Grasp might be nice to walk right up to an enemy and zap them to death.
Mystic theurge is pretty bad. Having higher leveled spells is more often likely to have an answer than two handfuls of lower spells. Also your stats are split, so your spells aren't as effective.
If going for "offensive" your save DCs are 2-4 lower, as your stats aren't as good and you don't have the highest level of spell to use.
damage spells are very delayed, your wizard is getting fireball at lv8 and only doing lv5 damage.
Same with going for buffs, your durations are 1-4/10-40 minutes shorter and delayed. You're not getting haste till after a sorcerer.
You can still only cast one spell per round, so having more options doesn't matter as usually there's only a few good spells to cast.
It can be done, it just will more likely be worse than you'd think.
1 I didnt plan on making a Mystic Theurge-Warrior as like your said, too many split stats. Instead its the other way around and making a pure caster with low physical stats. this also means alot more skill points because Intelligence becomes another primary stat. Channel Energy doesnt upgrade for a Prestige class, so Charisma returns to being a dump stat. Overall it simplifies stat needs ALOT.
2 Access to two pools of magic opens up interesting combinations even if you cannot double-cast each turn as a default. In particular it allows more usage of metamagic. One spell from each spell pool CAN be cast, but would have to wait until character level 16 at least.
3 Drawbacks: As you said spells dont scale as much and access is at least 3 levels lower. Also means its not possible to get tier 9 spells in both Wizard and Cleric.
My First thing when considering something is Where will I end. I play mostly PFS so lv11 is the cap.
At lv11 I'd be 3 cleric, 3 wizard, 5 theurge I'd have 4th level spells and cl 8 while a pure caster would have 6th level spells and cl 11. Personally I don't think having 4th level spells of both types is worth the loss of lv6 spells from one list.
Playing the low levels is painful. Lv 4-6 you're not progressing any really, so you kinda a lv3 running around with lv6s. In levels 13+ yeah it's maybe not that much of a loss having so much of both but I wouldn't enjoy getting there, and my games dont' go that high.
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The thing about multiclassing fighter/cleric is that you don't really get much out of it. If you want to be a better fighter and are willing to give up a few spells for it, there's the Crusader archetype. You're not all that much better at fighting but you're not all that much worse at spellcasting either. I don't really see the point but it's an option. You get more out of it and give up less than one level of fighter.
If you want to give up significant spellcasting, you can be a warpriest. You lose three levels worth of spells but get a bunch of benefits that make up for it very well.
If you want to give up significant spellcasting and be a skill monkey, you can be an inquisitor. Again, you lose three levels of spells, but you get a bunch of good benefits.
I can't think of a way to multiclass fighter (or paladin) and cleric in a way that is obviously as good as just being a cleric (or a paladin). Maybe you can do something like Cleric 12/Holy Vindicator 8 (casts as a 18th level cleric, +17 BAB) or Paladin or Fighter 6/Cleric (or Oracle) 4/Holy Vindicator 10 (casts as an 11th level cleric or oracle, +19 BAB), but I'm not sure either approach gets more than it gives up. The latter way is close to (but does not quite equal) warpriest or inquisitor in spellcasting ability but does not have their panoply of swift action abilities either.
In terms of spellcasting ability vs fighting ability, I think I'd rate the options in the following way:
Max fighting ability:
Max BAB Holy Vindicator(Paladin or Fighter 6/Cleric 4/Holy Vindicator 10)
Arsenel Master archetype warpriest
Warpriest or Inquisitor
Max Spellcasting ability Holy Vindicator (Cleric 12/Holy Vindicator 8)
Hardcore battle cleric
More balanced battle cleric (for example, reach cleric)
Support cleric
Offensive spellcasting cleric
Max spellcasting ability
I'm not a fan of mystic theurge at all. Pick the right deity/domains and a Theologian or Ecclesitheurge cleric can pack wizard style offensive spellcasting without multiclassing. When I ask what I'd rather have at level 6, the ability to cast web or glitterdust, and magic missile a couple times or the ability to cast four fireballs (Ecclesitheurge with fire domain) and I'll take the fireballs every time.
Ok, #1 if a cleric isnt a good healer, then what class is? This thread was originally about how to properly make a top-tier healing character that can other things, namely fighting.
The battle cleric is possible, people have confirmed that. Now its an argument if thats actually bad or not.
#2 what exactly is a Cleric supposed to do? I thought they were middling warriors that casted spells for buffs and healing to make up for not being as good as a fighter.
I dont think Ive ever a game that is so obtuse about healers. In say Disgaea its entirely possible to have any class with healing and magic. Its a question of aptitude. In most games it just takes mana to heal.
The battle cleric faces a quadfecta of problems... ability score distribution, low feats, action economy, poor damage output
Trying to navigate your way around this horrid mess is just not worth the poor returns.... Warpriest FTW!
Okay this is now repeating.
1 Guided Hand is really impractical as it requires Channeled smite(rather useless), only works on Deity Favored weapons(you only get 1, maybe 2), and only works in a character build that has high wisdom and low strength(trying to be a glass hammer?).
2 Yes the Warpriest is much better suited for combat. It has heavy armor, martial weapon, and weapon focus at level 1, as well as bonus feats every 3 levels. It can also use Fervor to make self-targeted spells swift actions, so can save alot of time.
Note: It also lacks tier 7-9 Cleric spells entirely and gets fewer spells to actually use each day, and probably isnt going to be a Healer or cast anything that isnt a self-buff.
3 OK a Cleric using buffs spells to power itself up is valid. That has been established quit e awhile ago, so thank you. My question is why do some people think this is a BAD IDEA and what a Cleric is supposed to do if Healing and self-buffing are bad in your opinion?
Guided Hand meshes rather well with the spell Holy Ice Weapon, which helps mitigate not pumping strength.
I suspect that the main reason why the self-buffing is considered bad is because action economy, really. If you need a bazillion spells in order to be a viable combatant, you're jumping into the fray much later than the martials, or the 6/9 casters with their swift action bonanza.
Hence, my personal favourite when it comes to clerical fighting is going with a reach build, so you can cast and fight at the same time. Couple it with the animal domain and Paired Opportunists, and your accuracy is pretty decent too :)
Ok I think there has been some confusion here. Im not trying to make a Cleric into a Warpriest, but rather use the Cleric's full potential in spells, equipment, and skills.
1 The main draw of Cleric over Inquistor or warpriest is the tier 7-9 spells. There are some options but trade off spells, but losing too many just makes Warpriest a much better option.
2 My concerns were just how to get things like Full Plate to overcome low dexterity or more skill points for low cleric skill points. Stat splitting might not be as bad as i thought, but I would have to give up Channeling and play more like a D&D 3.5 Cleric. Martial weapons cover most weapons in the game.
Just unlocking Full Plate has several options. Devilbane archetype, Crusader Archetype, dipping into Fighter Multi-class, or using a Feat slot to unlock it. the feat slots concerns me as Clerics dont get many and early on every one is precious, and those might be useless later when Spells like Summoning Monster becomes a great deal more useful.
3 Skill points are a different problem. Perception is the only must-have skill for every class, and Clerics dont have that as a class skill. Only 2 points per level makes everything else useless other than to SLOWLY get Trained skills.
Both the bonus hit points and skill points from the favored class bonus would be very useful for a Cleric.
Edit: If I made Druid similar problems would come up. Martial Weapon as a Feat opens up alot of options, but I dont know how to get higher tier armor because the Druid's class abilities stop working. I think metal armor can be made from Dragonhide to bypass that?
Ok, #1 if a cleric isnt a good healer, then what class is? This thread was originally about how to properly make a top-tier healing character that can other things, namely fighting.
The battle cleric is possible, people have confirmed that. Now its an argument if thats actually bad or not.
#2 what exactly is a Cleric supposed to do? I thought they were middling warriors that casted spells for buffs and healing to make up for not being as good as a fighter.
I dont think Ive ever a game that is so obtuse about healers. In say Disgaea its entirely possible to have any class with healing and magic. Its a question of aptitude. In most games it just takes mana to heal.
Pathfinder doesn't support "healers" the best healer is a life oracle with the life bond so that it transfers 5damage from allies to itself. Combos well with paladin levels to get swift action healing. So now you're healing everyone as a swift action and still have your full round to do useful things.
Clerics, Like every other class in Pathfinder, is specialize. Trying to do a bit of this and a bit of that usually leaves you falling behind at everything.
battle cleric
Taking 1 round to cast a good buff isn't the worse thing. Then taking a domain or two that has swift action buffs to help combat. Also looking for spells that have long duration buffs to have up that you don't have to cast in combat.
Spellcaster*
pick your favorite offensive spells(this includes debuffs) and take spell focus in them and casting feats and probably some metamagic feats.
Summoner*
Take the summoning feats and spam standard action summons.
*these builds are primarily standard action users, this means that they could also combat to using some quick channels as move actions.
Channler/healer
These as a focus don't really play out well. They can sometimes be added on to other builds as a secondary focus. But you often shouldn't need to heal at all in a fight.
Ok I think there has been some confusion here. Im not trying to make a Cleric into a Warpriest, but rather use the Cleric's full potential in spells, equipment, and skills.
1 The main draw of Cleric over Inquistor or warpriest is the tier 7-9 spells. There are some options but trade off spells, but losing too many just makes Warpriest a much better option.
2 My concerns were just how to get things like Full Plate to overcome low dexterity or more skill points for low cleric skill points. Stat splitting might not be as bad as i thought, but I would have to give up Channeling and play more like a D&D 3.5 Cleric. Martial weapons cover most weapons in the game.
Just unlocking Full Plate has several options. Devilbane archetype, Crusader Archetype, dipping into Fighter Multi-class, or using a Feat slot to unlock it. the feat slots concerns me as Clerics dont get many and early on every one is precious, and those might be useless later when Spells like Summoning Monster becomes a great deal more useful.
3 Skill points are a different problem. Perception is the only must-have skill for every class, and Clerics dont have that as a class skill. Only 2 points per level makes everything else useless other than to SLOWLY get Trained skills.
Both the bonus hit points and skill points from the favored class bonus would be very useful for a Cleric.
Edit: If I made Druid similar problems would come up. Martial Weapon as a Feat opens up alot of options, but I dont know how to get higher tier armor because the Druid's class abilities stop working. I think metal armor can be made from Dragonhide to bypass that?
If you're wanting to take advantage of being a full caster than you should focus on spellcasting. Forget about melee, build similar to a wizard that can cast in medium armor.
What levels do you see yourself playing at? Like which level are you starting at and how high do you see yourself going?Your AC can be fine with a breastplate instead of full-plate. You can go full-plate if you want, but it's not needed, even for a combat cleric.
skill points are painful if you were wanting to use them. There's not really a way to fix this nicely.