We need giant robots


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Am I the only one that wants to see Megas XLR in Starfinder?


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Gark the Goblin wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Names like Otiluke, Tenser, Nystul, Vecna and so forth all were the result of either being some of the original players actual names or the names of their characters or both and as such a lot were stripped off when 3.0 went live.

?

My 3.5 Player's Handbook has Otiluke's freezing/resilient sphere, Tenser's transformation, Nystul's magic aura, and many other spells with Greyhawk-specific names. They were removed in Pathfinder, but several (with names intact) have survived all the way to 5e.

The versions with no names or changed names is what was published on the d20SRD. Names were kept as IP; like some of the monsters like illithids and such.


Gark the Goblin wrote:
My 3.5 Player's Handbook has Otiluke's freezing/resilient sphere, Tenser's transformation, Nystul's magic aura, and many other spells with Greyhawk-specific names. They were removed in Pathfinder, but several (with names intact) have survived all the way to 5e.

You are correct sir. Teach me to not double check my memory. Thank you for the clarification.

And I probably was not makeing myself clear. It is not that there cannot be many tropes covered in Starfinder. Just that it should not immediately be attempted to cover ALL of them right off the bat and to me, Megabots would be 'nice' but as an add on. Not part of the rules at launch.

Have the base book cover as much of the basics as possible. Which will be a lot since we are adding a whole lot of tech rules systems and items to an already hefty base game.


We could maybe see a future AP that centers around a planet that resolves conflict through giant robot gladiator match ups and the PCs need to find funding/parts to build their robot and then battle through various tournaments to win access to a great library that has records from the GAP. Lots of tropes about giant gladiator bots, right?


Torbyne wrote:
We could maybe see a future AP that centers around a planet that resolves conflict through giant robot gladiator match ups and the PCs need to find funding/parts to build their robot and then battle through various tournaments to win access to a great library that has records from the GAP. Lots of tropes about giant gladiator bots, right?

Sounds like a great encounter or beginning of an AP, but an entire gladiator AP would be pretty repetitive and uninteresting, I think.


Coffee Demon wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
We could maybe see a future AP that centers around a planet that resolves conflict through giant robot gladiator match ups and the PCs need to find funding/parts to build their robot and then battle through various tournaments to win access to a great library that has records from the GAP. Lots of tropes about giant gladiator bots, right?
Sounds like a great encounter or beginning of an AP, but an entire gladiator AP would be pretty repetitive and uninteresting, I think.

Fair enough, luckily i am not in charge of these things :)

but run a robot gladiator fight and then give the party the chance to take their robot(s) offworld for the rest of the AP. Maybe they just need to win the tournament to find records that send them off to the next location.


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I don't know if we need to go Mythic to get giant robots--or even that people need to be any particular level for giant robots to show up. They should be to Starfinder what seige engines and huge warbeasts are in standard Pathfinder--a certain kind of super expensive military gear that usually can one-shot most PC level characters and are usually taking on things the size of castles or dragons (or kaiju and starships.)

Against individual humanoid monsters or in "dungeons" they're usually a terrible idea, because they're big and impractical--much like fighting a single orc with a trebuchet or taking it into a cave to go exploring.


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*still think Megas XLR needs to be referenced in Starfinder*


I happen to think that playing as a huge animated object with the robot subtype (Bestiary 5) using equipment from the Technology Guide is a great way to go fighting dragons.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
*still think Megas XLR needs to be referenced in Starfinder*

Or as we knew it as kids, Mega Sex El Arr.


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I do love giant robots...
But I prefer Gundam UC over Mega XLR.


Aranna wrote:

I do love giant robots...

But I prefer Gundam UC over Mega XLR.

Well, the second one is a parody. Not a deconstruction, but a demolition. Much like the brother/sister episode of Dokkoida!? was the demolition of anime's onee-chan bit.

Liberty's Edge

OH SWEET BABY JESUS YES!!!!!

I'd love to see mecha battles in the upcoming Starfinder, but as people have already mentioned, big mecha battles create a severe power imbalance. While mythic rules might be a good starting point (with a lot of adaptation needed), you'll effectively be splitting any kind of AP in to two "modes" one with normal PCs, and one where the PCs fight in warmachines. Getting a satisfying blend of the two may not be easy.

I'd also imagine that you'd have to provide several mecha options that different class builds can take advantage of. Obviously if Dex or Int were the main steering stats, you'd end up with a party of maybe just 2 classes. So you'd have to create several classes of mecha suits. Maybe one that magnifies the magical power of its pilot, while other benefit primarily from the pilot's fighting expertise.

Some people seem concerned about mecha fights not being suitable or appropriate for the typical dungeon crawl we're used to seeing in RPGs. I'd have to disagree, games like xenogears and xenosaga have done it quite well. The trick is to make sure that the enemy is also fighting in mechs. Of course kaiju-sized enemies would also be appropriate. Man could you imagine fighting a space-dragon in a mech? How cool would that be?

Either way, I wouldn't expect to see mechs in the core rulebook. It definitely seems like something that would need to make up a large chunk of another hardcover. But hey, that just means that Paizo will have more content to release for Starfinder later on.


Megas XLR is kind of a parody I'll grant you but it's also ingrained into me as a great show about giant robots fighting giant robots.


Honestly if the system can't even handle someone in a giant robot as opposed to some spelljamming sailboat, the system as a whole will be yet another one in the large pile of RPGs that fail at space and vehicles. Which is all that 'giant robots' are: Vehicles with limbs.

And really, there's no reason you can't Einhander or Canada-Arm things in the first place - it's not like you actually need it to be a gundam. The system needs to be capable of encompassing such things, or it's off to a bad start.

Wanting to use ships should be as natural to players in *a game about space travel* as wanting to use armor and horses is in pendragon. If the space combat system fails at such low-level design, there's no real point in using it for space campaigns.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Megas XLR is kind of a parody I'll grant you but it's also ingrained into me as a great show about giant robots fighting giant robots.

The best parodies come from love, and they are really easy to pick out from the ones that gave too much control to people who are just annoyed by what they are supposed to be spoofing. I've seen the second where the parody comes from 'I'm trying to insult it cause I hate it!' and it's painful to even watch the previews for such crap.

Megas XLR comes from the first group.


Grey,

Yep. It's clear these guys love giant robots, anime, and all kinds of the stuff I love. :)


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Am I the only one that wants to see Megas XLR in Starfinder?

You aren't alone my friend i really want it too.


Despite my misgivings, a recent stream about the planet Daimalko and the kaiju-like colossi hinted that Pacific Rim style mecha are on the horizon.

Mechanically it is looking like it will be an out-growth of powered armor rules. There is already one set of gargantuan power armor that I know of.


Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

Despite my misgivings, a recent stream about the planet Daimalko and the kaiju-like colossi hinted that Pacific Rim style mecha are on the horizon.

Mechanically it is looking like it will be an out-growth of powered armor rules. There is already one set of gargantuan power armor that I know of.

Mecha are deeply goofy, but there's a market of people who like that sort of thing, so it's sad but not surprising they'd fill it. There certainly seems to be room for a hybrid between power armor and vehicles.


I don’t really want Kaiju sized mech combat, but I’d totally be in for mechs the size of average Battletech mechs. Or something like the old PC game Heavy Gear.


The closest thing to mechs we have are the Powered Armors... and come to think of it, it's pretty similar.

You will need a LOT of tweaking though:
- Not many classes are proficient with powered armors from the start.
- The armors don't grant you attack bonuses; enhancements and such will be required.
- It's technically possible to run a campaign with 2 encounter levels (without and with mechs), but it requires some work.

Let's say your low-level party finds a Flight Frame (at 5th level), you will need computers and enhancements to grant you attack bonuses and you could run both 5th and 11th.


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Mechfinder! There's been some playtesting of it. Changes may come... eventually. When I have the energy to go through the feedback.


I just assumed that if anyone wanted Mech's vs Kaiju it'd be a reflavouring of Starship combat with starship sized monsters.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The Mecha Factory Did someone ask for Mecha? Built for Starfinder, by starfinder players and completely compatible with starship rules. Hot off the presses.


JiCi wrote:

The closest thing to mechs we have are the Powered Armors... and come to think of it, it's pretty similar.

You will need a LOT of tweaking though:
- Not many classes are proficient with powered armors from the start.
- The armors don't grant you attack bonuses; enhancements and such will be required.
- It's technically possible to run a campaign with 2 encounter levels (without and with mechs), but it requires some work.

Technically, unless you're maximizing Strength (and sometimes even then) they do give attack bonuses... for melee. And damage. For instance, the Warmaster's Frame (the only current Gargantuan Powered Armor I know of, and there's no way you're going to convince me that thing is not at least a Gundam, and might even argue it's pushing Mobile Armor territory) gives you 31 Strength for a +10 mod, which I'm pretty sure is greater than you can actually get in the system. And even the Flight Frame (the CRB's Gundam, I've literally been picturing it as a non-transforming Wing Gundam since the beginning) has a respectable 22 Strength, not horrible for level 11.

About the only issue I have with using Powered Armor as a stand in for mecha is those gawd-awful power consumption rates. Even the best has charge consumption of 1 per hour (mostly 20 or 40 hours, though there is one (the Explorer's Cradle) that gets 100 hours) though at least hooking a Generator up in those will keep it running indefinitely as long as you keep moving (1 charge per 10 minutes, loses 1 charge per hour). The real nightmare is the stuff (including most of the CRB options, thankfully more rare in Armory) that has durations measured in minutes (sadly including Wing, thought fortunately not the Warmaster).


Shinigami02 wrote:
JiCi wrote:

The closest thing to mechs we have are the Powered Armors... and come to think of it, it's pretty similar.

You will need a LOT of tweaking though:
- Not many classes are proficient with powered armors from the start.
- The armors don't grant you attack bonuses; enhancements and such will be required.
- It's technically possible to run a campaign with 2 encounter levels (without and with mechs), but it requires some work.

Technically, unless you're maximizing Strength (and sometimes even then) they do give attack bonuses... for melee. And damage. For instance, the Warmaster's Frame (the only current Gargantuan Powered Armor I know of, and there's no way you're going to convince me that thing is not at least a Gundam, and might even argue it's pushing Mobile Armor territory) gives you 31 Strength for a +10 mod, which I'm pretty sure is greater than you can actually get in the system. And even the Flight Frame (the CRB's Gundam, I've literally been picturing it as a non-transforming Wing Gundam since the beginning) has a respectable 22 Strength, not horrible for level 11.

About the only issue I have with using Powered Armor as a stand in for mecha is those gawd-awful power consumption rates. Even the best has charge consumption of 1 per hour (mostly 20 or 40 hours, though there is one (the Explorer's Cradle) that gets 100 hours) though at least hooking a Generator up in those will keep it running indefinitely as long as you keep moving (1 charge per 10 minutes, loses 1 charge per hour). The real nightmare is the stuff (including most of the CRB options, thankfully more rare in Armory) that has durations measured in minutes (sadly including Wing, thought fortunately not the Warmaster).

You are correct: the armor's Strength stat does grant a better attack and damage bonus. The problem is that... it might not be enough to be on par with similar sized creatures ^^; You would still need computer programs and/or multiple co-pilots to "aid you" in attacking. Thanks for bringing up the energy resource problem too, not that you could steal an ever-recharging battery :P

On a sidenote, a Gundam is 30 feet high on average, which is within the range of Gargantuan creatures :)


If you want to create a new power level for characters, you have to reflect the class system, otherwise you force your players to create their characters under two scales. That's the main conception error Paizo made with starship combat: Having a properly balance party doesn't make a properly balanced crew.

So, if you go for Mechas, you need melee focused mechas using solarian powers, droned Mechas for your mechanic, etc... If you don't do that, you'll have, like for starship combat, some players unable to contribute much during Mecha fights.

So, for me, Mechas must not become widespread equipment. Having a planet or a system where Mechas are a thing, that's ok (you play here or not), but having Mechas all over the universe with a new power level for them would be too hard to balance, or half illogical if you bring all the class features into Mecha fights.


SuperBidi wrote:

If you want to create a new power level for characters, you have to reflect the class system, otherwise you force your players to create their characters under two scales. That's the main conception error Paizo made with starship combat: Having a properly balance party doesn't make a properly balanced crew.

So, if you go for Mechas, you need melee focused mechas using solarian powers, droned Mechas for your mechanic, etc... If you don't do that, you'll have, like for starship combat, some players unable to contribute much during Mecha fights.

So, for me, Mechas must not become widespread equipment. Having a planet or a system where Mechas are a thing, that's ok (you play here or not), but having Mechas all over the universe with a new power level for them would be too hard to balance, or half illogical if you bring all the class features into Mecha fights.

The Siege Robot can act as both a monster and a vehicle, so... how about a Colossal Robot (60 ft. space with 60 ft. reach) that does the same?

Ok, it's not something to give away to the players, but if they're running a errant on Daimalko and must fend off a Colossus, I can see them reactivating an "ancient warrior" in order to defend settlements.

Take it as reactivating both Quantium Golems as a dormant defense mechanism.


If there are mechs in Starfinder they should be like the ones in FLCL.

Carefully hatched in the brain-case of adolescents of whatever species during sexual maturity.

Second Seekers (Luwazi Elsbo)

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think we could do early Gundam style mechas as late level Mechanic options.

But I also love the idea of doing a true Voltron style mecha as an alternative to Starship combat


With the way the rules for Starfinder currently work, the only method of giant mecha I can see as viable is something along the lines of Voltron or Pacific Rim (except with a number of pilots equal to the party size).

It would essentially be an alternative to regular Starship combat, for something like fighting a giant kaiju beast on a planet.


I'm seeing a bunch of people worried about how mech would interact with a punch of PCs, but, there's actually a really handy rule for this already - just invoke the rule about starship weapons being used on people (and person-sized weapons being used on starships) as being applicable to mechs as well.


I'm less worried about that, and more worried about "if only one person has a mecha" or even if one person in the party doesn't than they're effectively excluded from the game anytime something involivng the mecha happens.

And you can't really build a class around giant mecha because it either wont be balanced for the rest of game time (having to sit out) or it wont really have mechanics like we would expect it to.


Honestly? If I were to do a mecha fight, I'd probably try to flesh out the vehicle rules a little instead of doing a version of starship combat.


Claxon wrote:

I'm less worried about that, and more worried about "if only one person has a mecha" or even if one person in the party doesn't than they're effectively excluded from the game anytime something involivng the mecha happens.

And you can't really build a class around giant mecha because it either wont be balanced for the rest of game time (having to sit out) or it wont really have mechanics like we would expect it to.

It's very all or nothing.

But so is, say, a sequence where everyone is on hover bikes. There are a lot of things where you're either doing it or you're not.

Garretmander wrote:
Honestly? If I were to do a mecha fight, I'd probably try to flesh out the vehicle rules a little instead of doing a version of starship combat.

I'd probably stick it somewhere between the two, really - I was specifically referencing the rules about weapon scale, IE, that you can't precisely target creatures in the vicinity of Medium with starship weapons, and that damaging starships with weapons from the character-scale is highly difficult.


The hoverbike sequence can involve two people on a hoverbike with one piloting and one shooting or casting spells. There are ways to easily allow everyone to participate doing things they normally do.

Spell casting and normal weapons simply can't be relevant in a mecha fight, or else they would lose the qualities that people would expect (you don't expect the giant mecha to go down thanks to one guy with a rocket launcher).

In any event Nerdy Canuck, my main point is that we shouldn't encourage situation where it's a binary on participation. Space combat is dangerously close to that, you either have the appropriate skills or you're relegated to being a gunner. In the case of melee soldier or solarions you're potentially a very poor gunner.

I don't want to see mecha rules implemented that make the situation worse.


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I strongly feel like people forget that there are already existing vehicles/items that are already mech "scale" and larger. Like the 800' foot long Ultimatum Hover Carrier, the gargantuan sized power armor, and giant creatures like the Endbringer and Kyokor. All of these use standard rules.

I don't know how long it's going to take for people to realize that your higher level characters aren't just average joes wielding "normal weapons" at all levels. At this rate, seeing as many people couldn't just simply grasp this in the entirety of PF1, probably never.


I think it's more that some people want anime mecha, and those aren't represented well outside of being tiny starships with starship weapons.

But yes, the paragon reaction cannon (and other tier 15+ weapons) are the equivalent of tearing the main gun out of a tank and walking around with it.

I still maintain that Endbringer devils are different in starship form, and other CR20s are very vulnerable to starship weapons... but we've had that argument before, best not to retread it.


Garretmander wrote:

I think it's more that some people want anime mecha, and those aren't represented well outside of being tiny starships with starship weapons.

But yes, the paragon reaction cannon (and other tier 15+ weapons) are the equivalent of tearing the main gun out of a tank and walking around with it.

I still maintain that Endbringer devils are different in starship form, and other CR20s are very vulnerable to starship weapons... but we've had that argument before, best not to retread it.

Well if you think the Endbringer is somehow a totally different monster when simply configured for starship combat, that's fine. Especially when the game doesn't give that assumption in their background, I chalk it up to head canon.

Really wasn't much of an argument when we discussed how starship weapons interact with normal enemies. You basically said everything written in the block of text is absolutely meaningless, even though actual game mechanics are being mentioned. That's basically how that went.


If you really want to jump back on it.

Shooting Starships wrote:


Starship weapons and regular PC-level weapons work on different
scales and aren’t meant to interact with each other. If characters
choose to shoot at a starship with their laser rifles (or cast a spell
on it) while it is on the ground, the GM should treat the starship as
an object (a particularly massive one, at that). At the GM’s discretion,
if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or
people
, they deal Hit Point damage equal to 10 × their listed amount
of damage. However, starship weapons are never precise enough to
target a single individual (or even small group) and can, if the GM
decides,
be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks.

If a person (or creature) is affected directly by a starship weapon, it deals starship weapon damage x10. Since normal PCs (or NPCs), or groups of PCs are normally too small to target, a GM may decide to simulate them as deadly hazards. What a deadly hazard might be, is not defined. That's the starship vs. ground target rules.

If one PC has the bright idea to teleport back to the ship and shoot the ship's guns at the endbringer... well, I'd be super pissed if you told me the twin linked persistent particle cannons only did about as much damage as the soldier's full attack. Especially when a player should be aware of the above rules.

Never mind that endbringers 'have no ability to launch themselves into space.' despite being able to teleport 2,000 miles at will. Low orbit for Earth is about 1300 miles.

If it transforms into terrestrial form, throw those starship stats away. It will save you a headache.


Garretmander wrote:

If you really want to jump back on it.

Shooting Starships wrote:


Starship weapons and regular PC-level weapons work on different
scales and aren’t meant to interact with each other. If characters
choose to shoot at a starship with their laser rifles (or cast a spell
on it) while it is on the ground, the GM should treat the starship as
an object (a particularly massive one, at that). At the GM’s discretion,
if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or
people
, they deal Hit Point damage equal to 10 × their listed amount
of damage. However, starship weapons are never precise enough to
target a single individual (or even small group) and can, if the GM
decides,
be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks.

If a person (or creature) is affected directly by a starship weapon, it deals starship weapon damage x10. Since normal PCs (or NPCs), or groups of PCs are normally too small to target, a GM may decide to simulate them as deadly hazards. What a deadly hazard might be, is not defined. That's the starship vs. ground target rules.

If one PC has the bright idea to teleport back to the ship and shoot the ship's guns at the endbringer... well, I'd be super pissed if you told me the twin linked persistent particle cannons only did about as much damage as the soldier's full attack. Especially when a player should be aware of the above rules.

Never mind that endbringers 'have no ability to launch themselves into space.' despite being able to teleport 2,000 miles at will. Low orbit for Earth is about 1300 miles.

If it transforms into terrestrial form, throw those starship stats away. It will save you a headache.

You're also ignoring that it's says you cannot target even groups with starship weapons. If you cannot target something, you cannot damage it. It's as cut and dry as it gets.

I mentioned that the vehicle section has rules for hazards, but you say that's not what that means, because it's not mentioning the page number. Mind you, that is the only section in starfinder's entirety that gives rules on hazards. Not to mention that Starfinder is filled with omissions, from equipment to a creature's abilities, such as the Kyokor's "massive" ability, for example.

You're failing to see that treating starships in this way is simply a balancing mechanism. It's to stop players from thinking they have an "I Win" button available at most times, despite that the hazard attack chart is still very damaging. The CRs in that chart also fit very neatly when tiers are applied to it.

Okay, the Endbringer can't propel itself back into space. So? Does this suddenly mean that it somehow randomly becomes exponentially more powerful when it fights in space, or can we take a more reasonable position and say that it's just simply game mechanics at work and that they don't have to have perfectly matching statblocks?

I don't have to use the Endbringer as an example, I can use the Oma. It has 85 hitpoints as the base frame, no modifications, more than any other medium starship frame, atm. Which means that it can survive a direct hit from some capital starship weapons. That thing doesn't transform, so what's the excuse here? They even say they simulate both a dead and living Oma, and that Oma are known for swallowing smaller starships, on top of that.

It seems like you don't agree with the idea that PCs and other terrestrial creatures can compete with starships, power level wise. I've accepted that most people won't. Most people can't even accept that PCs and mechs should be on the same scale, which is very evident in this thread.


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Sauce987654321 wrote:
It seems like you don't agree with the idea that PCs and other terrestrial creatures can compete with starships, power level wise. I've accepted that most people won't. Most people can't even accept that PCs and mechs should be on the same scale, which is very evident in this thread.

PCs and other terrestrial creatures can't compete with starships power wise. Hell, there's a whole rules sidebar to that effect.

Mecha are a different story. You have to ask yourself what sort of mecha are you trying to portray when you bring them into starfinder?

Are you bringing in Gundams/other anime mecha? Immune to tanks, infantry, and anything short of another mecha, fast enough to outfly fightercraft, ridiculously tough, etc.? In that case, you should probably use starship combat, or a similar subsystem to model them. One in which they can't easily target PCs, but also can't be easily damaged by PCs either.

Are you trying to portray battlemechs? Large walking tanks, and other mecha slightly more realistic than anime mecha often are? Then you should probably use the existing vehicle rules. To capture the flavor of such settings, the vehicles should be higher tier than PC level, and used against enemies created for such an encounter. Keep in mind that high level PCs can and should be able to take down such mecha with guns and spells.

Continuing starship vs. PC vs. Monster with both sets of stats Argument:

Sauce987654321 wrote:
You're also ignoring that it's says you cannot target even groups with starship weapons. If you cannot target something, you cannot damage it. It's as cut and dry as it gets.

It says they are never precise enough to target a single individual or small group. Immediately after telling you how much damage they do to said individual. The PCs can't assassinate their target with an orbital railgun, nor can they be hit in the same manner. If the situation calls for it (nukes, large orbital bombardment of an entire city, etc.) PCs or NPCs may still be damaged by starship weapons. In this case you can use damage x10, or 'deadly hazard', up to GM discretion. A PC/NPC is not immune to a starship dropping antimatter torpedoes nearby, simply because they 'can't be targeted.'

Quote:

I mentioned that the vehicle section has rules for hazards, but you say that's not what that means, because it's not mentioning the page number. Mind you, that is the only section in starfinder's entirety that gives rules on hazards. Not to mention that Starfinder is filled with omissions, from equipment to a creature's abilities, such as the Kyokor's "massive" ability, for example.

You're failing to see that treating starships in this way is simply a balancing mechanism. It's to stop players from thinking they have an "I Win" button available at most times, despite that the hazard attack chart is still very damaging. The CRs in that chart also fit very neatly when tiers are applied to it.

I see it perfectly as the balancing method that it is. And, 99/100 cases it never comes up. I use the starship stat block in starship combat, and the terrestrial stat block in terrestrial combat.

But then that 1/100 case comes up.

The PCs decide to nuke the outpost instead of sneaking in. The answer is not 'you can't target the outpost, it's against the rules'. It's typically 'everything was CR8 or lower, so it's all dead, and everything relevant to the plot was destroyed'.

The PCs want to leave the bunker and go back to the surface while the orbiting fleet is bombing the planet. The answer is not 'those railguns can't hit you because you're human'. More like: 'are you sure?' then: 'You take (2d6x100 damage) because your character is being stupid'. Alternately that rule block lets you say 'You die because your character is being stupid.' Or even 'You take (see vehicle hazard chart/trap damage chart/a number made up on the fly) damage from the heat, pressure waves and debris' - if you don't want the character to die immediately.

So far, makes sense, the 'Shooting Starships' sidebar is satisfied, everything is fine. Using vehicle hazard damage for damage is fine too. It's not correct or incorrect, it's simply one of many ways to implement 'deadly hazard'.

But... Starship weapons are not only in the GMs hands. PCs can contrive to use them, and when they do, they need to make some sense.

Creatures like the endbringer sort of make sense if the different forms are actually different. Creatures like the Oma stop making sense entirely.

When you shoot at a tier 1 starship with a gun, it has hardness 35 and thousands of hit points; starship creatures, regardless of tier... don't. The rules are disconnected for a reason. Creatures and starships operate on different scales. Starship/creatures can break immersion if they aren't handled delicately, because they operate on both scales simultaneously.

The endbringer devil doesn't if it's terrestrial form isn't the same as it's starship form. Head canon? Maybe, but it does 'transform into terrestrial form'.

Quote:
Okay, the Endbringer can't propel itself back into space. So? Does this suddenly mean that it somehow randomly becomes exponentially more powerful when it fights in space, or can we take a more reasonable position and say that it's just simply game mechanics at work and that they don't have to have perfectly matching statblocks?

Here I was pointing out the mismatch between stat block and lore. Lore says the devil can't propel itself into space, the stat block says it can with a standard action spell like ability.


Garretmander wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
It seems like you don't agree with the idea that PCs and other terrestrial creatures can compete with starships, power level wise. I've accepted that most people won't. Most people can't even accept that PCs and mechs should be on the same scale, which is very evident in this thread.

PCs and other terrestrial creatures can't compete with starships power wise. Hell, there's a whole rules sidebar to that effect.

Mecha are a different story. You have to ask yourself what sort of mecha are you trying to portray when you bring them into starfinder?

Are you bringing in Gundams/other anime mecha? Immune to tanks, infantry, and anything short of another mecha, fast enough to outfly fightercraft, ridiculously tough, etc.? In that case, you should probably use starship combat, or a similar subsystem to model them. One in which they can't easily target PCs, but also can't be easily damaged by PCs either.

Are you trying to portray battlemechs? Large walking tanks, and other mecha slightly more realistic than anime mecha often are? Then you should probably use the existing vehicle rules. To capture the flavor of such settings, the vehicles should be higher tier than PC level, and used against enemies created for such an encounter. Keep in mind that high level PCs can and should be able to take down such mecha with guns and spells.

** spoiler omitted **...

Starships use a different scale because it's the most convenient way of playing with starship combat. Sure, they could have omitted the x10 damage and kept it to objects only, but then people would ask, why only objects? Basically what I'm saying is that they could and do compete on terms of power. You didn't really give examples as to why not, other then mentioning the side bar. If this were true, no creatures would be able to threaten planets, for example, like described on certain monsters, like the Endbringer, the Living Apocalypse, and other high CR threats. Any ship that happens to fly by them in atmosphere can just instant kill them, and that's not even remotely what's being suggested.

Well, unless you want to invite potential confusion, I feel like mecha, unless specifically in space, should use normal rules. Want to be impervious to infantry, weaker vehicles, and to certain creatures? That's what the leveling system is for. You don't need a separate scale to display this. I'm surprised you even thought this, considering our previous agreements on certain things.

Using spoilers is a good idea:
You're completely missing the idea of starship weapons used as hazards. You're not suddenly immune to them, you still take damage, and you can describe it as being hit by the attack, even if mechanically you can't be targeted by the x10. Why does it have to be the full brunt to represent that you got damaged by a starship's weapons?

Also, refer to page 272. You only use these statistics for starship walls and it's hardness if you are boarding it and attack it from within. When you attack it from the outside, you treat it as an object, as mentioned by the side bar for starships. This was brought up several times I believe when the Ultimatum Hover Carrier was being discussed sometime ago. If this were true, it would have thousands of hitpoints, not nearly 500. Again, game mechanics may differ from your expectations, they don't have to be an exact match. Also, taking down a starship is less about destroying every single wall possible and more about incapacitating it.

Also, I believe you can't do interplanetary travel with Teleport, even through space, I believe. Weird, but I guess it's there to prevent PCs doing certain things.


Sauce987654321 wrote:

Starships use a different scale because it's the most convenient way of playing with starship combat. Sure, they could have omitted the x10 damage and kept it to objects only, but then people would ask, why only objects? Basically what I'm saying is that they could and do compete on terms of power. You didn't really give examples as to why not, other then mentioning the side bar. If this were true, no creatures would be able to threaten planets, for example, like described on certain monsters, like the Endbringer, the Living Apocalypse, and other high CR threats. Any ship that happens to fly by them in atmosphere can just instant kill them, and that's not even remotely what's being suggested.

Well, unless you want to invite potential confusion, I feel like mecha, unless specifically in space, should use normal rules. Want to be impervious to infantry, weaker vehicles, and to certain creatures? That's what the leveling system is for. You don't need a separate scale to display this. I'm surprised you even thought this, considering our previous agreements on certain things.

The endbringer is described as often attempting to hide so it can summon an actual army than being a one-devil apocalypse. Multiples participate in a full planetary assault. I imagine starship scale weapons are 90% of the reason for that timidity.

Living apocalypses devastate regions hundreds of miles across, then often go dormant. Some worlds are destroyed entirely. Again, you probably do need either starships or superheroes (PCs) to deal with them at all. Considering their immunities and origins, there might not be starships left to actually threaten one once created. They are the hardest to conceptualize as being taken down by a starship or two skipping through the atmosphere, I'll give you that.

I tend to think mecha, once on the scale of starships, should always be on the scale on starships. Once on the scale of vehicles, always on the scale of vehicles. I'll give you that the vehicle tier system makes for a good way to keep big mecha from being trivialized by little soldiers. Assuming, again, you don't want some of the more ridiculous anime mecha.

More starship stuff:
It doesn't have to be the full brunt, no. If the PCs manage to maneuver their way past GM roadblocks and shoot a colossal creature with a nuke or a big particle beam or some such thing, they will be very disappointed with 'near miss' when they roll a natural 20, or other similar circumstance. I'll be honest, in most cases it isn't a problem, and as a GM you can prevent most cases of the creature/starship from being attacked on both scales at once, but when it does happen, my immersion at least, is broken. Hence why I consider the endbringer devil to be very different in terrestrial form.

The ultimatum hover carrier, if I remember my final thoughts correctly, could easily be treated as a starship in some cases. When it's stat block hit points are gone, it's a colossal object with those thousands of hit points and no longer a vehicle. Kind of like how starships aren't fully destroyed until they hit negative their max HP. Only the hover carrier likely has a lot more to destroy once the 'vehicle' has been.

Edit: Regarding the endbringer teleporting into low orbit: I guess not teleporting straight up could be a restriction of teleport, but 'low orbit' is less than a hundredth of the way to our moon. I don't think that counts as interplanetary.


Garretmander wrote:

The endbringer is described as often attempting to hide so it can summon an actual army than being a one-devil apocalypse. Multiples participate in a full planetary assault. I imagine starship scale weapons are 90% of the reason for that timidity.

Living apocalypses devastate regions hundreds of miles across, then often go dormant. Some worlds are destroyed entirely. Again, you probably do need either starships or superheroes (PCs) to deal with them at all. Considering their immunities and origins, there might not be starships left to actually threaten one once created. They are the hardest to conceptualize as being taken down by a starship or two skipping through the atmosphere, I'll give you that.

I tend to think mecha, once on the scale of starships, should always be on the scale on starships. Once on the scale of vehicles, always on the scale of vehicles. I'll give you that the vehicle tier system...

I mean the biggest groups of Endbringers is at most no more than a dozen, according to the statblock. I don't feel like this suggests a fear for starship weapons. Standard scale weapons can damage it, too, you know :p. If they hide while conjuring minions, that, imo, suggests that it doesn't want to be disturbed.

continuing:
Again, it's not about it being a near miss, it's about using reasonable damage values so you can't instant kill things. If the idea that you can't instant kill things with starship weapons breaks immersion for you, I'll remind you that a heavy nuke doesn't even destroy a concrete wall in a direct hit. Though, a nuke, whether you deal x10 or not, may kill most creatures from the radiation, overtime.

Starship weapons aren't typically dealing much more damage to a starship form Endbringer than hazard attacks near the creature's CR to it's terrestrial form, relatively speaking. It doesn't make sense to me that an Endbringer in one form can take hits from a starship easily, only to get utterly annihilated instantly when in another.

When they said interplanetary travel, I assumed teleport to space was included. You're not traveling to planets at a 2,000 mile limit.

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