| Qayinisorouse |
I'm an 11th level full Paladin archer, and i want to purchase a wand of Gravity Bow.
I don't understand how UMD works, and what i have to roll, there are two possible ways i can go about getting the wand:
1. Buy for full price as Ranger (Divine) CL10.
2. Crafted from wizard for half price (Arcane) CL10.
From the little i understand from UMD, the 2nd will require an additional roll, because paladins cast Divine spells, but will be cheaper.
Could anyone please write a run-down of the rolls and how they would go about both cases?
Thank you!
| Nargemn |
According to this page, the DC to use a wand is 20, which you would have to roll for (UMD is always rolled, I believe).
Arcane or Divine has no particular bearing, I think, so you'd be best off grabbing the wizard's price wand. Thankfully failing a roll does not expend a charge so it's just a numbers game (though a natural 1 means you cannot try to activate the item for 24 hours), and some GMs may allow you to 'take 20' in this case, since eventually you WILL roll high enough.
Unfortunately you don't have UMD on your list of class skills unless you took a trait. Luckily, Paladins like Charisma - I'll assume you have a Cha of 14 at least. Assuming you also have eleven ranks in Charisma that nets you a +13 on checks. Not too shabby!
| Gilfalas |
and some GMs may allow you to 'take 20' in this case, since eventually you WILL roll high enough.
You cannot take 20 on any skill that has a penalty for failure. In this case a roll of 1 on a UMD check carries a special penalty of being unable to attempt to activate that item again for 24 hours. Also the activate blindly option has several different penalties for failure as well.
Normally when purchasing a wand the rules state that it is made by a Wizard or Cleric if the spell is arcane or divine and on their lists. The lower level spell is used if it is on both lists. Spells unique to certain classes of course are the only classes who can make wands of that spell and if you have a specific crafter available in your game who makes wands then of course you can use them.
You just need to roll a 20 to activate the wand. After that you get an additional +2 to activate it again if you were successful before.
| Qayinisorouse |
@Gilfalas
Ok- so if it was crafted as an Arcane or Divine spell doesn't matter at all? also what about CL? the wand is CL10 but my paladin is level 11, so only CL 8? doesn't matter too?
it's as simple as rolling UMD as many times as i want (Outside of combat - obviously) and if i roll pass 20 i can cast, if i cast natural 1 i failed?
P.S
"After that you get an additional +2 to activate it again if you were successful before" - i THINK that only factors in to "activate blindly", no? and since i had the wand crafted\purchased it, its not activating blindly?
| Tarvi |
@Gilfalas
Ok- so if it was crafted as an Arcane or Divine spell doesn't matter at all? also what about CL? the wand is CL10 but my paladin is level 11, so only CL 8? doesn't matter too?
The caster level of a spell from a wand is always the caster level of the wand
(Barring a special ability - Staff Like Wand is the only one I know of and it doesn't apply here)
it's as simple as rolling UMD as many times as i want (Outside of combat - obviously) and if i roll pass 20 i can cast, if i cast natural 1 i failed?
If your total on the skill check is 20 or more you succeed, if it's below 20 you fail and if you roll a natural 1 and fail you can't try it again for 24 hours
| Calth |
You really don't need to bother with Gravity Bow,once you have enough Paladin levels to make smite a significant part of your damage, plus you have the option of making your divine bond, a weapon spirit.
Its still more damage for a relatively low cost that stacks with all the things you listed.
| Drahliana Moonrunner |
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:You really don't need to bother with Gravity Bow,once you have enough Paladin levels to make smite a significant part of your damage, plus you have the option of making your divine bond, a weapon spirit.Its still more damage for a relatively low cost that stacks with all the things you listed.
With the action cost of readying wands, casting spell, putting away wand, (unless you're simply going to just drop it), just to pile on another buff. I very rarely ever have a battle where I've gotten more than a round's warning.
| Calth |
Calth wrote:With the action cost of readying wands, casting spell, putting away wand, (unless you're simply going to just drop it), just to pile on another buff. I very rarely ever have a battle where I've gotten more than a round's warning.Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:You really don't need to bother with Gravity Bow,once you have enough Paladin levels to make smite a significant part of your damage, plus you have the option of making your divine bond, a weapon spirit.Its still more damage for a relatively low cost that stacks with all the things you listed.
That's... pretty poor planning/prep in general then. Gravity Bow is a minute/level spell, so get a CL 5-10 for 2-4k and there should generally no issue prebuffing it. Its not like a round/level spell which has an actually opportunity cost.
| Qayinisorouse |
Qayinisorouse wrote:@Gilfalas
Ok- so if it was crafted as an Arcane or Divine spell doesn't matter at all? also what about CL? the wand is CL10 but my paladin is level 11, so only CL 8? doesn't matter too?
The caster level of a spell from a wand is always the caster level of the wand
(Barring a special ability - Staff Like Wand is the only one I know of and it doesn't apply here)
What does that mean? ok so the wand is level 10, but does that effect my UMD throw? or is it still 1 throw for 20?
| Calth |
Tarvi wrote:What does that mean? ok so the wand is level 10, but does that effect my UMD throw? or is it still 1 throw for 20?Qayinisorouse wrote:@Gilfalas
Ok- so if it was crafted as an Arcane or Divine spell doesn't matter at all? also what about CL? the wand is CL10 but my paladin is level 11, so only CL 8? doesn't matter too?
The caster level of a spell from a wand is always the caster level of the wand
(Barring a special ability - Staff Like Wand is the only one I know of and it doesn't apply here)
Caster level has no effect on UMD checks for wands. Wand UMD DC is a flat 20 with no modifiers.
Jeff Merola
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RealAlchemy wrote:Just be the amazing multiclassed paladin/sorceror so you can cast gravity bow and shield on yourself :)And wear no armor.
Or deal with arcane spell failure?
Eh, that just requires using spells without somatic components, only using spells outside of combat, ignoring spells altogether, or being a Psychic bloodline sorcerer.
| Makarion |
You really don't need to bother with Gravity Bow,once you have enough Paladin levels to make smite a significant part of your damage, plus you have the option of making your divine bond, a weapon spirit.
That's only true if you mostly fight Evil creatures, and fight few enough creatures that your limited number of smites is not a restriction. Looking to increase your static damage is a worthwhile endeavour for a dedicated combatant.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:Eh, that just requires using spells without somatic components, only using spells outside of combat, ignoring spells altogether, or being a Psychic bloodline sorcerer.RealAlchemy wrote:Just be the amazing multiclassed paladin/sorceror so you can cast gravity bow and shield on yourself :)And wear no armor.
Or deal with arcane spell failure?
Since the examples given both have somatic components, I stand by my comment.
And casting out of combat doesn't eliminate the arcane spell failure problem.
And if you were considering dipping Sorcerer to get Gravity Bow, and then "ignoring spells altogether" you'd be better off dipping Ranger instead.
Jeff Merola
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Jeff Merola wrote:Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:Eh, that just requires using spells without somatic components, only using spells outside of combat, ignoring spells altogether, or being a Psychic bloodline sorcerer.RealAlchemy wrote:Just be the amazing multiclassed paladin/sorceror so you can cast gravity bow and shield on yourself :)And wear no armor.
Or deal with arcane spell failure?
Since the examples given both have somatic components, I stand by my comment.
And casting out of combat doesn't eliminate the arcane spell failure problem.
And if you were considering dipping Sorcerer to get Gravity Bow, and then "ignoring spells altogether" you'd be better off dipping Ranger instead.
Out of combat means you take the armor off, then cast, then put it back on.
OilHorse
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Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:Out of combat means you take the armor off, then cast, then put it back on.Jeff Merola wrote:Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:Eh, that just requires using spells without somatic components, only using spells outside of combat, ignoring spells altogether, or being a Psychic bloodline sorcerer.RealAlchemy wrote:Just be the amazing multiclassed paladin/sorceror so you can cast gravity bow and shield on yourself :)And wear no armor.
Or deal with arcane spell failure?
Since the examples given both have somatic components, I stand by my comment.
And casting out of combat doesn't eliminate the arcane spell failure problem.
And if you were considering dipping Sorcerer to get Gravity Bow, and then "ignoring spells altogether" you'd be better off dipping Ranger instead.
You understand that donning armor takes at least a minute for light armor, unless you want to decrease the effectiveness of it.
Gravity Bow has a duration of 1min/level. So you waste the 1st half of the spell to hastily don your armor? Seems like poor asset management to me.
Jeff Merola
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| Ashram |
Tarvi wrote:What does that mean? ok so the wand is level 10, but does that effect my UMD throw? or is it still 1 throw for 20?Qayinisorouse wrote:@Gilfalas
Ok- so if it was crafted as an Arcane or Divine spell doesn't matter at all? also what about CL? the wand is CL10 but my paladin is level 11, so only CL 8? doesn't matter too?
The caster level of a spell from a wand is always the caster level of the wand
(Barring a special ability - Staff Like Wand is the only one I know of and it doesn't apply here)
Like Tarvi mentioned, the caster level of the wand is separate from your paladin caster level. If you manage to activate the wand, it functions as if cast by a 10th level caster, since it is a caster level 10th wand.
Caster level also has no bearing on your UMD check. Your total for UMD is only your ranks in UMD plus your Charisma, plus the class skill bonus (Which you don't have, as a paladin.) If you manage to successfully activate the wand once, you can add an additional +2 to your total, as you gain a bonus to UMD checks on a specific item if you've activated it before.
Jeff Merola
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Like Tarvi mentioned, the caster level of the wand is separate from your paladin caster level. If you manage to activate the wand, it functions as if cast by a 10th level caster, since it is a caster level 10th wand.Caster level also has no bearing on your UMD check. Your total for UMD is only your ranks in UMD plus your Charisma, plus the class skill bonus (Which you don't have, as a paladin.) If you manage to successfully activate the wand once, you can add an additional +2 to your total, as you gain a bonus to UMD checks on a specific item if you've activated it before.
That +2 is only for activate blindly (which is a DC 25 and used when you don't know what the item is or what its command word is), not for general use.
Step one: Unsanctioned Knowledge feat.
Step two: forget umd.
Unsanctioned Knowledge lets you pull from the bard, cleric, inquisitor and oracle lists. Gravity Bow is not on any of those.
OilHorse
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OilHorse wrote:It really only takes a standard for such a character.
You understand that donning armor takes at least a minute for light armor, unless you want to decrease the effectiveness of it.
Gravity Bow has a duration of 1min/level. So you waste the 1st half of the spell to hastily don your armor? Seems like poor asset management to me.
So now we are casting 2 spells to make this work? As a sorcerer dip?
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Another option: be a Chosen One paladin, and have your familiar spend the actions to cast Gravity Bow for you.
Of course, then you're missing out on Divine Bond...
Two questions:
1) How does the familiar get gravity bow on its spell list?
2) How does the familiar cast gravity bow on the Paladin?
Share Spells is not bidirectional.
| Claxon |
Considering that its a first level spell that (in a wand) will only last for a minute it's really not worth it.
For a medium character with a longbow the damage goes from 1d8 to 2d6 which is 4.5 average to 7 average. You only deal 2.5 points of damage per hit.
Basically, unless you can prebuff for the combat with Gravity Bow it's almost never worth it to cast in combat, because you lose out on the first round of damage.
So my advice is honestly not worry about it.
Jeff Merola
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Considering that its a first level spell that (in a wand) will only last for a minute it's really not worth it.
For a medium character with a longbow the damage goes from 1d8 to 2d6 which is 4.5 average to 7 average. You only deal 2.5 points of damage per hit.
Basically, unless you can prebuff for the combat with Gravity Bow it's almost never worth it to cast in combat, because you lose out on the first round of damage.
So my advice is honestly not worry about it.
This isn't for PFS and the wand will explicitly last for 10 minutes (CL 10), which is long enough to prebuff with.
| Claxon |
You don't always need to roll on UMD, though to get Skill Mastery you need to be more Rogue than Paladin.
Skill Mastery doesn't work on UMD. Skill Mastery lets you take 10 when you normally couldn't because of stress or distractions.
UMD just says you can't take 10, not because of stress or distraction but because UMD is special so Skill Mastery does not help.
However, 1 level of Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue gets you the wizard spell list.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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However, 1 level of Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue gets you the wizard spell list.
With arcane spell failure still being a problem.
If it's just gravity bow that is desired, then I suggest a level of Ranger. Gain a favored enemy, keep your BAB up, etc.
Anyways, I still think that one spell isn't worth dipping.
| Claxon |
Claxon wrote:However, 1 level of Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue gets you the wizard spell list.With arcane spell failure still being a problem.
If it's just gravity bow that is desired, then I suggest a level of Ranger. Gain a favored enemy, keep your BAB up, etc.
Anyways, I still think that one spell isn't worth dipping.
Its not a problem if you plan is to use wands in the first place.
It's not exactly like the caster level 1 of actually casting the spell is very worthwhile.
But overall, yes I agree you would be better off dipping ranger (to keep up BAB and for spell list access) over dipping rogue or wizard for access.