What's in a name?: Paizo naming disasters

[John Woodford]

Message board troll wrote:

Words are hard. From now on I demand all characters be named Bob.

Nah, that might be confusing. Better call them all Bruce.

[Sara Marie]

Hi folks, I removed some posts (and replies to said posts) that I think? were intended to be all in good fun, but just don't translate well for everyone who might be reading these forum posts. In addition to text not always being able to capture a snarky or sarcastic tone, not all our readers or community members have historical knowledge of paizo.com forum and community interactions and relationships to understand these were likely made in a lighthearted and friendly manner.

[Adahn_Cielo]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

T.A.U. wrote:

Pronouncing Kingmaker's names in Italy could be hard too. Especially because Castruccio is a very funny name for Italian speakers since it could literally means "castrated honey boy".

I had a very hard time as GM trying to make him appears as a threatening and powerful enemy to mine players.

A lot of games have issues with demon and devil names in Italian as well. Since one of our major sources for Hell is, of course, Dante's Inferno,.... well, can you really take these seriously as bad guys?

Alichino (derived from Arlecchino, the harlequin)
Barbariccia ("Curly Beard")
Cagnazzo ("Nasty Dog")
Calcabrina (possibly "Grace Stomper")
Ciriatto ("Wild Hog")
Draghignazzo ("Big Nasty Dragon"])
Farfarello (possibly "Goblin")
Graffiacane ("Dog Scratcher")
Libicocco (possibly "Libyan Hothead")
Malacoda, ("Evil Tail")
Rubicante (possibly "Red-faced Terror")
Scarmiglione (possibly "Trouble Maker")

I mean, I know I wouldn't use "Eviltail" in English as the name of a scary evil outsider....

More than their meaning, the Malebolge were meant as a ""comic relief"" in the Inferno: that's why their names are so goofy!

Also, if we're talking pronunciation, I always found they roll really well off the tongue, it's kind of fun to say the names out loud. :P

[Meraki]

Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

Really anything '-gug' fails to convey danger or power (totally IMHO, clearly).

Nobody tell Lovecraft. :D

Apostrophes in names are supposed to be indicative of a glottal stop (a little pause/skip in the middle of the word), but a lot of fantasy of yore just kinda tossed them in wherever like sprinkles on a cupcake. Pathfinder has mercifully avoided that. I think.

[TriOmegaZero]

Meraki wrote:

Nobody tell Lovecraft. :D

Our party turned a corner and found a pack of gugs. Once we made the knowledge check to know what they were, the guy playing the ice troll was ready to turn and run.

[Dark Die High]

Gorbacz wrote:

My second name is Jaraczewski. It's a human name from planet Earth. I dare you, I double dare you undereducated 'muricans to pronounce it correctly. You won't, unless you have a degree in Slavic studies or you hail from either Chicago or NY's Greenpoint.

Yar a chew ski?

I had to try. And no I'm not from Chicago or Greenpoint, but I will admit to being an undereducated 'Murican.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Sissyl wrote:

And also nothing wrong with Gruumsh. Blibdoolpoolp was pretty cleverly explained to be a result of that language in an article: Modifiers to the main word are added in the middle of that word, so: Bliboolp modified by doolp.

"By Any Other Name: Races of the Underdark" Dragon 281.

I DID have fun writing that. :) I'm glad you liked that bit.

[Judy Bauer]

Meraki wrote:

Apostrophes in names are supposed to be indicative of a glottal stop (a little pause/skip in the middle of the word), but a lot of fantasy of yore just kinda tossed them in wherever like sprinkles on a cupcake. Pathfinder has mercifully avoided that. I think.

We do our best, though some snuck in during the early days. Starting in 2011, each developer was allocated one (1) new name with an apostrophe—subject to editorial approval, so we can verify that the glottal stop is in a reasonable place. ;-)

[James Jacobs]

The pronunciation index we put into the first Campaign Setting hardcover only exists because we miscalculated how much content we had for the book—near the time it was time to go to print, we realized we were short a few pages of content and had to scramble with stuff to add to the book. Among the late-game additions were (as my memory serves) the pronunciation guide, along with Appendix A's list of adventure sites and the information about the demon lords, arch devils, empyreal lords, and the four horsemen on pages 172-175 (all of which was originally just a single page rather than three and a half pages).

As for why I decided to cut the pronunciation guide from the Inner Sea World Guide when it previously appeared in the Campaign Setting Hardcover... there are 2 reasons:

1 (the main reason): There simply wasn't any room in the Inner Sea World Guide for an extensive pronunciation index. This book is bigger than the previous campaign setting, but it's also a lot more jam-packed with information, and the decision of what to include and not include was very difficult—had I a few more pages, I would have included more factions and prestige classes and monsters and more details on Inner Sea holidays and a more detailed trade/resources map of the region and much, much more... which would have STILL left no room for a pronunciation index.

2 (a minor reason): Said guide would be out of date due to the addition of new names anyway one month after the book was published, and with each month that followed would grow more and more out of date. This was also why we didn't publish a "Locations of Paizo adventures" map in the book (another thing that appeared in the first hardcover because of "extra pages" in the pagination).

I appreciate that folks do want to know how to pronounce these made-up words, but that's a service that can be relatively easily provided online and the lack of which does not impact the setting. I made the call that instead of a pronunciation guide, the Inner Sea World Guide would instead contain 2 more pages on something that adds to the game world. Actually, considering the fact that we've added so much more proper nouns to the world in the years since the first hardcover, two pages is too conservative an estimate for how large such a footprint would have been in the book.

[James Jacobs]

Judy Bauer wrote:

Meraki wrote:

Apostrophes in names are supposed to be indicative of a glottal stop (a little pause/skip in the middle of the word), but a lot of fantasy of yore just kinda tossed them in wherever like sprinkles on a cupcake. Pathfinder has mercifully avoided that. I think.

We do our best, though some snuck in during the early days. Starting in 2011, each developer was allocated one (1) new name with an apostrophe—subject to editorial approval, so we can verify that the glottal stop is in a reasonable place. ;-)

Ha! Yeah, the one (1) new name with an apostrophe rule is one that I've championed from the very start.

Mine, for what it's worth, is the demon lord Cyth-V'sug, but that's INTENDED to be a glottal stop, so it's legit. Totally legit.

[Axial]

In my opinion "Norgorber" doesn't sound serious or intimidating enough,

[NenkotaMoon]

Should it sound intimidating. I mean, the only name I think is completely non-threatening is "Keith", everything else is pretty decent to me. Of course the ultimate heel name for abad guy has to be "Kenny".

[JChance]

I personally think Norgorber sounds about right for the essence of the character--a sneaky little bastard. Yes, he's a sinister deity with an aspect who champions serial killers, but beneath it all he's the god of common crooks.

[bugleyman]

Axial wrote:

In my opinion "Norgorber" doesn't sound serious or intimidating enough,

"Norgorber" makes me thing of someone with a serious case of chest congestion. :P

[TriOmegaZero]

I always laugh because I want to say Norburger.

[UnArcaneElection]

I have this urge for the Goblins to have trouble getting along with Norgorber -- despite similarities in alignment -- because they think of him as Nobooger.

Hey, you know, sometimes things like this happen (it's the last clip in the bunch) -- at least his name isn't John Bigboote.

[Distant Scholar]

For me, the tricky/annoying ones are the name collisions/near-collisions.

Examples:

• Andoran <-> Andor, or the adjective Andoran (Tolkien)
  
• Absalom <-> Absalom, son of King David (the Bible)
  
• Thuvia <-> Thuvia, Maid of Mars (John Carter Mars series)
  
• Eye of Abendego <-> Abednego, one of Daniel's three friends (the Bible)
  

Name collisions are almost unavoidable, but I seem to find a lot more of them in Golarion than in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.

[Sissyl]

Norgo'rber?

[Zmar]

Demon names are not meant to be pronounced by humans. We lack proper orifices to utter them without cursing ourselves accidentally or angering them.

[Auke Teeninga]

I just pronounce Sarenrae as Sunray. Seems to make sense! ;-)

[Set]

James Jacobs wrote:

1 (the main reason): There simply wasn't any room in the Inner Sea World Guide for an extensive pronunciation index. This book is bigger than the previous campaign setting, but it's also a lot more jam-packed with information, and the decision of what to include and not include was very difficult—had I a few more pages, I would have included more factions and prestige classes and monsters and more details on Inner Sea holidays and a more detailed trade/resources map of the region and much, much more... which would have STILL left no room for a pronunciation index.

Ooh, a resources/trade map! Did such a thing ever get done up, and I just missed it, or is it still not-quite-ready-for-prime-time?

'Trade of the Inner Sea' with common caravan routes and merchant ship routes and what products are going from A to B. I'd buy that for, um, several dollars!

As for the topic, I never noticed the 'Saranwrap' thing, but Norgoober is unfortunately how I first read that name, and it stuck...

Eh. We have real-world gods named 'Nut' and 'Snotra' (which is like Mothra, but with boogers?) and 'Þorgerðr Hǫlgabrúðr.' Sarenrae and Norgorber have it easy.

And there's a country in Golarion named after Osiris (and another after Geb!), which you can bet your bippy annoys my namesake to no end. :)

[Ms. Pleiades]

NenkotaMoon wrote:

Should it sound intimidating. I mean, the only name I think is completely non-threatening is "Keith", everything else is pretty decent to me. Of course the ultimate heel name for abad guy has to be "Kenny".

"I cast Face of the Devourer on Keith."

Boom, Keith is instantly intimidating, and capable of biting people's faces.

[Meraki]

James Jacobs wrote:

Judy Bauer wrote:

Meraki wrote:

Apostrophes in names are supposed to be indicative of a glottal stop (a little pause/skip in the middle of the word), but a lot of fantasy of yore just kinda tossed them in wherever like sprinkles on a cupcake. Pathfinder has mercifully avoided that. I think.

We do our best, though some snuck in during the early days. Starting in 2011, each developer was allocated one (1) new name with an apostrophe—subject to editorial approval, so we can verify that the glottal stop is in a reasonable place. ;-)

Ha! Yeah, the one (1) new name with an apostrophe rule is one that I've championed from the very start.

Mine, for what it's worth, is the demon lord Cyth-V'sug, but that's INTENDED to be a glottal stop, so it's legit. Totally legit.

And linguistics nerds everywhere appreciate it! :-)

[Fromper]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Tangent101 wrote:

The sad thing is these same people would be complaining if various NPCs were named John or Bob or Jane. You know, easily-pronounced names.

You can bet i´m gonna be complaining when persons and monsters start to be named Ted, Chad, Bud, or similar stuff.

This is not totally without precedent . . . .

I was just going to mention Skip.

[TOZ]

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

Of course the ultimate heel name for abad guy has to be "Kenny".

F**K Kenny.

[NenkotaMoon]

TOZ wrote:

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

Of course the ultimate heel name for abad guy has to be "Kenny".

F**K Kenny.

Kenny is the ultimate heel.

[TOZ]

KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!

[BigNorseWolf]

Axial wrote:

In my opinion "Norgorber" doesn't sound serious or intimidating enough,

Product branding working as intended. *GANK*

[Haladir]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I always laugh because I want to say Norburger.

If you're ever at Blackfingers' Bar and Grill, I would advise against ordering the 'norburger.'

[Haladir]

The thing that annoys me about made-up names in RPGs is when players decide to make jokes about them, and then use the joke-name at all times.

For the love of all that's holy, don't do this!:

In my original "Rise of the Runelords" game, my loveable knucklehead players came up with these...

Norgorber became "Nor-Burger, God of Food Poisoning"

Shalelu became "Sha-Na-Na"

Xanesha signed a letter to Aldern Foxglove as "Wanton of Nature's Pagan Forms." She became "Won Ton Soup."

Jakardos became "Jerkwad"

Ironbriar bacame "Iron-On"

Mokmourian became "Mork from Ork"

and Karzoug became "Gadzooks!"

[TriOmegaZero]

SA-NATA-AN-NA

[Rysky]

Um, Hal, I don't think that really has anything to do to with whether the names are fantastical or not, and more to do you with your player's minds :3

[Tectorman]

My pet peeve weird word is very simple.

"Ki"

Hate it. "Key" is what you put into "door" to make it unlock. "Ki" does not sound sufficiently different from that to evoke a mysterious source of power.

Call it "chi", pronounced "chee". Call it chakra or essence or motes or something else. Just not something phonetically identical to something so everyday. Good grief.

[Tim Statler]

I always call it K(eye) with a long I and sharp K.

[KarlBob]

Distant Scholar wrote:

For me, the tricky/annoying ones are the name collisions/near-collisions.

Examples:

• Andoran <-> Andor, or the adjective Andoran (Tolkien)
  
• Absalom <-> Absalom, son of King David (the Bible)
  
• Thuvia <-> Thuvia, Maid of Mars (John Carter Mars series)
  
• Eye of Abendego <-> Abednego, one of Daniel's three friends (the Bible)
  

Name collisions are almost unavoidable, but I seem to find a lot more of them in Golarion than in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.

It's taken me quite a while to train my brain to recognize "Andoran" as a noun, rather than an adjective. What helped for me was stressing different syllables. {AN do RAN} sounds like a noun to me; {an DOR an} sounds like an adjective for people and things from {an DOR}.

I believe that most of the literary and biblical allusions are deliberate.

I support the idea of a resource map for the Inner Sea. Maybe it could be packaged with expanded caravan/travel rules, covering both land and sea voyages. Barring that, I suppose we could just superimpose a resource map of Europe and northern Africa over the Inner Sea map.

Fantasy names could be much harder to pronounce than they usually are. Some real world languages, like French, have lots of "silent" letters. Others, like English, pronounce the same letter combinations in several different ways (as pointed out in the poem up-thread). If you have a reasonable chance of being right by pronouncing all the letters, and pronouncing combinations consistently, then that's actually pretty good.

Side note regarding English and it's inconsistencies:

James Nicoll wrote:

(English doesn't) just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

[Orthos]

Tim Statler wrote:

I always call it K(eye) with a long I and sharp K.

Seconded. I was under the impression that this was the proper way to pronounce ki/chi/qi.

[John Woodford]

KarlBob wrote:

Side note regarding English and it's inconsistencies:

James Nicoll wrote:

(English doesn't) just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

And, of course, from H. Beam Piper: "English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."

[GeraintElberion]

Arcadia bugs me.

I'm a student of Ancient History, and a lover of art filled with classical allusions.

As such, I have a very strong sense of what Arcadia represents.

From Wikipedia: "Arcadia (Greek: Ἀρκαδία) refers to an ancient civilization of pastoralism and harmony with nature. The Greek province of the same name is derived from it; Arcadia has developed into a poetic byword for a noble and peaceful wilderness. Arcadia is a poetic place associated with bountiful natural splendor and harmony.[1] The 'Garden' is often inhabited by shepherds. The place is also mentioned in Renaissance mythology.

The inhabitants were often regarded as having continued to live after the manner of the Golden Age.[2] It is also sometimes referred to in English poetry as Arcady. The inhabitants of this region are regarded as living close to nature, peaceful, and virtuous."

So, Arcadia is a mythical/fantasy place name.

And in Pathfinder it is a fantasy place name.

But of a very different place.

A really annoying choice.

It's like having a race of lizard people and calling them 'Ewoks'.

So jarring!

[KarlBob]

John Woodford wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

Side note regarding English and it's inconsistencies:

James Nicoll wrote:

(English doesn't) just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

And, of course, from H. Beam Piper: "English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."

That one's great, too. Do you know any other quotes like them?

[Tim Statler]

Distant Scholar wrote:

For me, the tricky/annoying ones are the name collisions/near-collisions.

Examples:

• Andoran <-> Andor, or the adjective Andoran (Tolkien)
  
• Absalom <-> Absalom, son of King David (the Bible)
  
• Thuvia <-> Thuvia, Maid of Mars (John Carter Mars series)
  
• Eye of Abendego <-> Abednego, one of Daniel's three friends (the Bible)
  

Name collisions are almost unavoidable, but I seem to find a lot more of them in Golarion than in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.

As to Andoran, I have to fight not to say Andorian. Star Trek nerd I am.

[Kobold Catgirl]

James Jacobs wrote:

My adavantage, of course, is that I've been saying names like Sarenrae and Norgorber and Achaekek...

(nor-GORE-bur)

Okay, this is the one name I will not defend Paizo on. It sounds like something an evil Swedish Chef exclaims.

So this is the thread where we make fun of other Paizonians' usernames, right?

[Kobold Catgirl]

Tim Statler wrote:

HEY, "STATLER"!

...

Shit, that's actually an amazing surname. What to do, what to...

...

HEY, "TIM"!

[T.A.U.]

Tim Statler wrote:

As to Andoran, I have to fight not to say Andorian. Star Trek nerd I am.

+1

[Sundakan]

Tectorman wrote:

My pet peeve weird word is very simple.

"Ki"

Hate it. "Key" is what you put into "door" to make it unlock. "Ki" does not sound sufficiently different from that to evoke a mysterious source of power.

Call it "chi", pronounced "chee". Call it chakra or essence or motes or something else. Just not something phonetically identical to something so everyday. Good grief.

They're all different spellings for the same word. Chi/Ki/Qi.

All pronounced either "key" or "Chuh/Chrrr", as far as I know both are correct depending on the culture.

Very weird to complain about this in English as well, where famously "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a complete and grammatically correct sentence.

[Set]

Tim Statler wrote:

As to Andoran, I have to fight not to say Andorian. Star Trek nerd I am.

For me it's Calistria and the Scarred Lands nation of Calastia. Just similar enough to trip my geekbrain.

Then again, there's a lot of similarities between the settings, just because they tapped into similar archetypes. Sarenrae and Madriel (NG redeemer angel-goddess of healing, mercy and the sun) are cut from the same cloth, as are Abadar and Hedrada (LN god of law, justice, civilization, etc.). But that's an archetype thing, and no different from how Artemis (ancient Greece), Ehlonna (Greyhawk), Mielikki (the Realms) and Tanil (Scarred Lands) seem like subtly different sister nature/hunt goddesses.

[Set]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

HEY, "STATLER"!

The Statler I know is the one next to Waldorf.

[TriOmegaZero]

They are my spirit animals.

[Tim Statler]

Set wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

HEY, "STATLER"!

The Statler I know is the one next to Waldorf.

Do you know Waldorf's wife's name?

Spoiler:

Astoria.