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Lemme start by saying that I heartily appreciate the new elements of gameplay strategy that Downtime & Kingdom-Building rules bring to the table, and I want to thank everyone involved in that (and the excellent "Kingmaker" AP that prototyped it) for all their time and effort.
What I'd like to propose is a "Worldbook" of sorts, that would go through the nations and factions of Golarion (or perhaps just the Inner Sea) and stat them out using Kingdom, Downtime, and Faction-prestige rules.
The introduction set forth in Kingmaker is wonderful, but to those of us aspiring to take our characters or parties on the path to rulership, we hunger for more. What happens if our Stolen Lands kingdom wants to carry out an invas- er, sorry, "intervention" in Galt? Or what if the GM decides Technic League of Numeria invades the Stolen Lands? What if an Alkenstar-Andoran Alliance (with PC heroes at the helm, of course) is at war with a Chelliax client state? How about a grand campaign of conquest all across the Inner Sea - the kind which has made Alexander, the Caesars, and the Khans (in)famous in our world's history?
Basically, what I would like (and would pay good money for) is a "Bestiary of Nations" (and factions), with each statblocks of each one's territorial holdings, troop strength, and wealth - just like a player's Kingdom or Downtime stats. When my players (or I as a player) go up against a rival Kingdom or guild, I want to know their stats, just like when taking down a monster.
To my knowledge, as of this post, there isn't a product out there like this already - but if I missed such a thing already being published (there are a lot of PF books to keep up with, I'd appreciate someone letting me know.
Don't hesitate to post replies if you'd like to throw your support behind such a project, &/or if there is something you'd like to see in such a book that I forgot to mention.
What I don't want to see is people wasting my time the weak, shoot-down "counter-argument" of: "oh, but you/your GM can just make something up for those nations" - well, if we follow that rabbit-hole to it's logical conclusion, I could just pull all the stats for monsters, magic, classes, heck, a whole game system of my own out of my rear, but then we wouldn't be playing Pathfinder anymore, would we? Such arguments bring nothing to the discussion and are only lazy attempts to shut it down.
Also, I (obviously) would love to hear from the good folks at Paizo themselves regarding their thoughts on this idea.
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This does sound like an awesome resource - though more in line with the OP than the narrower option put forth by Garrett. The faction information would widen the usability, and allow for more flavor text on plothooks and intrigue - to dovetail with Ultimate Intrigue.
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In the meantime, for anyone looking to expand on the Kingdom rules, I'd highly recommend Legendary Games'
Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle, & Ultimate War.
But my fellow Pathfinders bring up some good points.
Perhaps put in some class options that specifically interact w/ mass combat - Commanders, Spymasters, Battle-Priests, War-mages, that sort of thing.
But again, I'd want more of the focus to be on the nations & factions and their territorial holdings, defenses, & forces. The Eagle Knights of Andoran, the Dragon-prowed fleets of the Ulfen vikingrs, the Pure Legion of Rahadoum, etc.
How badass would it be to participate in a massive siege of Absalom (on either side)?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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In the meantime, for anyone looking to expand on the Kingdom rules, I'd highly recommend Legendary Games'
Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle, & Ultimate War.But my fellow Pathfinders bring up some good points.
Perhaps put in some class options that specifically interact w/ mass combat - Commanders, Spymasters, Battle-Priests, War-mages, that sort of thing.
But again, I'd want more of the focus to be on the nations & factions and their territorial holdings, defenses, & forces. The Eagle Knights of Andoran, the Dragon-prowed fleets of the Ulfen vikingrs, the Pure Legion of Rahadoum, etc.
How badass would it be to participate in a massive siege of Absalom (on either side)?
Thanks for the shout-out. I had a lot more ideas for expanding the kingdom and mass combat rules after writing that section of Ultimate Campaign, and those supplements add a lot of great information.
As for the OP's request, there will be some of that presented in the long-in-production Ultimate Armies, which I'm HOPING to have done by PaizoCon. It won't be encyclopedic for all of Golarion, but my intention is to include army-style stat blocks for all AP adventures that feature mass combat scenarios. I've got a pretty good list of them, but if anyone would like to shout out mass combat-type scenarios from APs that they'd like to make sure are included, list them here and I'll work to include them. I haven't read some of the newest APs, so if there are scenarios there that might be usefully outlined in mass combat form, shout em out!
(I should point out, of course, that any armies and scenarios we present will have to be euphemistically named, so as to make clear what it is we are talking about without actually using Paizo's protected IP.)
@ Jason Nelson:
That sounds amazing, and pretty close to what I'm looking for.
I haven't read all the APs yet, but...
- Reign of Winter seems like it would have a unique opportunity for some "our world" WWI/Russian Civil War battles.
Euphemistic Name Idea: "Red on White" (a double-entendre of the Communist Bolsheviks (Reds) vs the Czar's White Army, and blood on snow).
- Wrath of the Righteous looks like you could have the righteous host of crusaders driving back the demon horde
Euphemistic Name Idea: Heav'n's Rage
- Giantslayer looks like the whole AP is one big war against the giants ;)
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If Paizo ever produces something like the OP proposes, I pledge to buy it.
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One thing I think would be important to remember is a difference b/w "standing army" and "how many levies a nation can muster in a short time" (say, if they go to war).
Throughout most of our world's history (up until fairly recently, actually - around the last industrial revolution), for most civilizations, having a large, standing army at the ready during peacetime was rare. It was uneconomical (most of those soldiers were farmers & artisans, so if they're standing around in armor, they're consuming resources & not producing stuff), and typically seen as an open declaration of immediate intent on aggressive action by one's neighbors. Typically the rulers would have a small, full-time guard, regular folk would be conscripted as the need arose, and go back to being turnip-farmers or cartwrights at the end of the conflict.
The few militaristic civilizations that did have large standing militaries (Sparta & Rome are notable examples - and both of their economies strongly depended on slaves) were the exceptions that proved the rule.
It stands to reason that if the world of Golarion is not constantly embroiled in global wars, and if it makes any sort of economic or geo-political sense, then they too, having mostly agrarian/feudal/pre-industrial societies, would follow suit.
In cultures that necessitate badassery like the Ulfen or the Kellid, there's an important distinction that should be made between "anyone is ready to fight at a moment's notice" (which is more or less true) and "a bunch of people are full-time warriors, and do nothing else" (which is neither true in the cultures they are based on, nor would make any sense in the setting).
The presence of dangerous monsters does little to challenge this precedent. You don't send an army of CR 1 warriors to take out a dragon (that's how you end up with a roasted ex-army), you send a small band of highly-skilled adventurers (essentially a commando raid instead of an invasion force).
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I would definitely buy a 'Bestiary of Nations', even if it was just the a softcover dealing with the Inner Sea.
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I would certainly love something like this! Though I doubt a single hardcover would be enough to do the entire Inner Sea justice. Really, a new softcoverline of books seems more appropriate and functional to me. Especially, so that it can make suggestions for spaces where there's room for a starting PC kingdom. I mean, the Stolen Lands are made for this, really, but why cant I have my little kingdom in Osirion or Ustalav? (And, yes, I know I can, but I'd rather not have to twist, turn and do the hokey-pokey to justify it).
Other things such a line could include are new improvements for settlements, edicts, festivals appropriate to the region, leadership roles or even archetypes, feats and spells to interact with the kingdom building rules.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'd dig it. Maybe even narrow it a step further, to Armies of the Inner Sea, with four-page sections on 10 or so nations and their forces, and an appendix of Golarion-flavored class and rules options that shine in kingdom building and mass combat. Hell, eight pages on whatever's going on between Molthune and Nirmathas would make it worth it for me.
See my articles in Wayfinder #11 and the upcoming Wayfinder #15 for 4-page entries for Cheliax (in #11) and the River Kingdoms (in #15).
I'll keep writing them as long as Tim keeps printing them!
My dream freelance assignment would be to collaborate with Brandon Hodge on a book full of Golarion armies, including both Mass Combat rules stat blocks and troop subtype stat blocks for various nations' forces.
Though I doubt a single hardcover would be enough to do the entire Inner Sea justice. Really, a new softcover line of books seems more appropriate and functional to me. Especially, so that it can make suggestions for spaces where there's room for a starting PC kingdom.
The old 2nd edition AD&D Birthright setting (a spiritual precursor to Kingmaker) had something like this: the "Player's Secrets of [Nation] series - I recall having several of the old softcovers long ago, that detailed the various kingdoms players could rule: culture, history, settlements, fortresses, who's who (w/ statblocks of important figures), geography, holdings, politics, advice etc - excellent resources. And it was all told from the POV of an advisor to a newly crowned ruler.
The paperbacks are obviously harder to come by these days, but you might be able to find pdfs floating around.
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The old 2nd edition AD&D Birthright setting (a spiritual precursor to Kingmaker) had something like this: the "Player's Secrets of [Nation] series [...]
The paperbacks are obviously harder to come by these days, but you might be able to find pdfs floating around.
The Dungeon Master's Guild (used to be D&D Classics) has at least some of the PDFs for sale; $5 each.
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In the meantime, for anyone looking to expand on the Kingdom rules, I'd highly recommend Legendary Games'
Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle, & Ultimate War.But my fellow Pathfinders bring up some good points.
Perhaps put in some class options that specifically interact w/ mass combat - Commanders, Spymasters, Battle-Priests, War-mages, that sort of thing.
But again, I'd want more of the focus to be on the nations & factions and their territorial holdings, defenses, & forces. The Eagle Knights of Andoran, the Dragon-prowed fleets of the Ulfen vikingrs, the Pure Legion of Rahadoum, etc.
How badass would it be to participate in a massive siege of Absalom (on either side)?
Thanks for the shout-out. I had a lot more ideas for expanding the kingdom and mass combat rules after writing that section of Ultimate Campaign, and those supplements add a lot of great information.
As for the OP's request, there will be some of that presented in the long-in-production Ultimate Armies, which I'm HOPING to have done by PaizoCon. It won't be encyclopedic for all of Golarion, but my intention is to include army-style stat blocks for all AP adventures that feature mass combat scenarios. I've got a pretty good list of them, but if anyone would like to shout out mass combat-type scenarios from APs that they'd like to make sure are included, list them here and I'll work to include them. I haven't read some of the newest APs, so if there are scenarios there that might be usefully outlined in mass combat form, shout em out!
(I should point out, of course, that any armies and scenarios we present will have to be euphemistically named, so as to make clear what it is we are talking about without actually using Paizo's protected IP.)
First let me say that the three books in question are fantastic resources. That said, is their any possibility that you'll turn the series into a single collated volume?