I'm running Age of Worms for a new group of PC's. Unfortunately, they aren't running with the standard group. They all over spell casters. Every beginning of the adventure, they buff themselves only and then proceed to walts through the module. When they run out of spells, they retreat and repeat.
I need ideas on how to change the module to deal with people ACs so high they cannot be hit normally. Have freedom of movement up so grapple doesn't do anything. Have usually 1 or more resist energy spells so they are immune to damage types.
I need monsters that will give them a decent challenge an not just be butt monkeys and die.
The only other thing I can think of is attacking them in their sleep, which is kinda a dick thing to do, but they have had to put up watches in an Inn to make sure they don't die from the factions they have pissed off.
I think there is something odd going on there. All Spellcasters and ACs so high they cannot be hit? At least sorcerers/wizards should not have too high ACs to start with. Could you give more information about the group, and perhaps their typical spell combos and tactics? Some example just how they waltzed over the encounters?
OTOH, the retreat-and-repeat tactic is a valid one. This AP has some parts which can be pretty deadly with bad resource management, so this a very important part of this AP. I don´t recall precisely if there are parts where retreat and repeat won´t work, but I think that there are some intelligent enemies who won´t just sit there if they get attacked once, but will prepare for a second attack, or even mount a counterattack.
Well, the glaring question is: do the players *want* more of a challenge? Have they complained that things are too easy? Or are they acting as a prepared, cohesive team and reaping the rewards?
It's pretty normal for optimised parties to waltz through APs as they are written for a 'newbie friendly' party composition. If the monster challenges really are inappropriately weak and the players are getting bored, I suggest starting by including an extra one or two monsters in the encounters and then ramping from there. You can also substitute monsters in some encounters for equivalent higher CR creatures very easily, as long as you think about what would fit thematically.
There are also some situations in that AP where you would expect monsters to repopulate or counterattack if players retreat.
I wouldn't make a habit of introducing scenarios or monsters designed specifically to mess with the players. As you mention that just stinks of adversarial DMing.
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A Tiefling Wizard, Halfling Druid, Human Cleric, Warmage, and Healer.
Everyone for the most part has the following spells buffed on them.
Greater Mage Armor (+6)
Barkskin (+4)
Shield of Faith (+3)
Freedom of Movement
1-2 Energy Resistance spells cast on everyone.
The Halfling and Tiefling are usually either polymorphed or wildshaped into something with a high natural armor bonus. Usually a Salamander (+7 AC) for the Tiefling and Fleshraker (+6 AC) for the Druid. Druid has enhanced wildshape, and Tiefling also has Shield (+4).
Tiefling and Halfling Druid are the tanks in the front.
Cleric has forgone the Greater Mage armor for full plate.
The Warmage has crossclassed into Blood Mage.
They are level 7-8 and are presently walked through the Doppleganger Hideout and now trying to take out the Mind Flayer.
Recently the Cleric has been casting Freedom of Movement on 4 of the party members, and the Druid has natural spell which he is now casting Kelpstrand on anything they have trouble hitting and his Grapple is high enough that he out grappled the Mimics. If its a caster of some sort he summons allies on them. Especially anything with Spell Resistance. The Druid wasn't able to get his pet past the guards, unfortunately poison isn't allowed in the city (another Fleshraker)
They are 'reaping the rewards', but to me when they take no damage from an encounter and keep pulling back soon as the spells are dispelled or wear out, its making it slow going. I've debated about have the monsters come back later, and/or leave instead of sticking around. They might not complain about wanting more of a challenge, but doing dungeons practically untouched and the healer hasn't even used more than 2-3 spells is making me think they need to be challenged better.
Any encounter without a boss, they walk through it. More or less nothing can hit them unless it does touch attacks. The recent Freedom of Movement prevents grappling now, so the Arena Battles coming up is going to be cakewalk. I need ideas to make it more where the monster's can't even hit them and hurt them. Only thing I've considered is increasing the number of spells casters tremendously. Except I don't feel that having a coterie of nothing but sorcerer and clerics is believable. As for the Arena, I need some builds that will make them also have problems since nothing with the groups will cause them any problems what so ever. They could essentially take everything on at one time and win.
What I need is stuff that uses touch attacks, and goes through Fort and Dex saves instead of Will saves. I don't mind changing a couple of the monsters to be more challenging and would like to see them get through so the Healer has to case more than a Cure Minor, a Cure Light, and MAYBE a Cure Moderate.
Psionics are allowed, but no one has used them yet.
I've been generous with Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium.
I've considered the enemies use the black market and use loot in the adventure to aid their defenses (any uses is just used...), but if they pull back I usually don't have enough time to adjust on the fly and can't determine what was used to buy what. Usually they pull back, craft magic items and then go to sleep.
I'm deciding if they pull back they will get harassed, but I'm afraid that they will Rings of Sustenance for everyone so they need less sleep. They've more or less sold all the magic arms and armor so they have a large Warchest.
First, the spell combinations seem valid at first glance, with perhaps one point AC too much on Barkskin.
Second, there can´t be too many spells left beyond those buffing spells, right? Four castings of Greater Mage Armor (where is this from? can´t seem to find it right now, besides older references) should pretty much deplete the 3rd level spells of an eigth-level wizard.
IIRC, many of those spells have a rather limited duration, so you are looking at the "10 minute adventure day" phenomenon. So, if your party is in a situation where they can´t retreat or can´t rest and relearn spells, they will be in trouble. Other than that, being able to waltz through any given encounter with enough spells and prep time is a given.
They are level 7-8 and are presently walked through the Doppleganger Hideout and now trying to take out the Mind Flayer.
I dug up Dungeon #127 and started browsing through the adventure. In the write-up for the wizard doppleganger, there is mention of him preparing according to what is known about the PCs. He has access to Dispel Magic, and this would be a valid tactic to use on the PCs. Even if he can target just one PC at a time, and has only a 50/50 chance to end any given spell, it might be worth it. Ending three of six spells at once is not trivial. Things like this may give the PCs more of a challenge. Spellcasters with ranged touch attacks are legitimate as well.
One more thing: A group of five spellcasters under PF rules is much more powerful than an average party of four under D&D 3.5. I´d say have a close look at the "scaling the adventure" notes, and scale the adventure up at least one level, if not two. Consider the CRs given in the adventure to be at least one point lower on average in PF.
The Mind Flayer was never pathfinderized, so I can´t really say anything about that. Most probably, psionic abilities might stack with this monster, so some reworking it into a psionicist instead of a sorcerer might be a good idea.
Or do you play 3.5, and I didn´t get it? Even if, five casters with sound spell tactics are still tougher than your regular party of four. I´d still consider treating them as one level higher.
Looks like you are giving your pc's access to a pretty big array of specialized spells and items. If you haven't already, make sure your enemies also have access to them. Also for certain areas Unhallow and dimensional anchor will solve your problem of them using hit and run tactics.
We are doing 3.5 since it was originally written for it.
I've been adjusting several of the encounters so they no longer have a complete walk in the park. I swapped Intellect Devourers for the Ocotopins, and gave them a major fight for their lives. They had to use Spiritual Weapon, and Lesser Acid Orbs to take them down. It was amusing seeing the Tiefling go Catatonic as he didn't have high Cha and was the focus of several Ego Whips (and failed his save several times.) Unfortunately, once the Evard's Tentacles came out, it pretty much was game over as the Intellect Devourers only have a Grapple of +1.
I should have gone with an advanced Intellect Devour, but didn't have enough time to write out the stats for an advanced one. Unfortunately, a Phrenic Destrachan wasn't much of a threat to them. Especially since it didn't have a decent concentration check and a trip from a Dire Wolf and a grapple and pin from the Flesh Raker allowed them to coup de grace it.
I'm thinking about having the Mind Flayer escape and become a Reoccurring Enemy. If they do manage to kill him, turning him in a Mind Flayer Lich so they might have to start looking for his Phylatery. I have a few ideas for his dying speech. Although, a friend of mine suggested I try a dying curse from Heroes of Horror to affect someone. That way they'll have some interesting times ahead.
I'm running Age of Worms for a new group of PC's. Unfortunately, they aren't running with the standard group. They all over spell casters. Every beginning of the adventure, they buff themselves only and then proceed to walts through the module. When they run out of spells, they retreat and repeat.
I need ideas on how to change the module to deal with people ACs so high they cannot be hit normally. Have freedom of movement up so grapple doesn't do anything. Have usually 1 or more resist energy spells so they are immune to damage types.
I need monsters that will give them a decent challenge an not just be butt monkeys and die.
The only other thing I can think of is attacking them in their sleep, which is kinda a dick thing to do, but they have had to put up watches in an Inn to make sure they don't die from the factions they have pissed off.
What module are you in now?
Also what spells do they normally use?
What factions have they pissed off?
edit: Removed question that did not matter.
I just noticed you are using 3.5 and not PF. What books are you allowing?
We are doing 3.5 since it was originally written for it.
I've been adjusting several of the encounters so they no longer have a complete walk in the park. I swapped Intellect Devourers for the Ocotopins, and gave them a major fight for their lives.
Really? Nobody's ever said octopins were underpowered. They're one of the nastiest creatures in the adventure.
Presently they are in "Hall of Harsh Reflections", and just finished up the Mind Flayer. Right now they are going backwards and picking up loot and hitting the museum where they skipped.
The list of spells above is pretty much everything they use except for the Warmage who has all of the Evocation spells (Guess who provides the most damage.) As I said, the Druid is casting Kelpstrand, and the War Mage and Wizard now have Evard's Black Tentacles as Damage. Cleric has a few other spells, but mostly is memorizing buffs.
So far, I'm thinking the only faction they pissed off right now is the dopplegangers. Still figuring out how to integrate them into the game. The Greater Doppleganger did provide the Wizard and the Druid with problems as his touch attack actually can hurt them quite a bit.
We are doing 3.5, but a majority of the books are allowed. There are some exceptions. So far the only outright banned books is Book of Nine Swords, Unearthed Arcana, and Races of Destiny. All Campaign Book specific items and things are not allowed. Some of the campaign items are allowed, but anything else needs approval. (Recently the Druid is asking for a spell that the Yuan-Ti use. Told him no, unless he wants to be evil and worship the Yuan-Ti gods.)
The Octopins are unable to affect this group. Since they pretty much only use buffs. They have AC's of 34+ and with "Freedom of Movement", they auto-win any grapple so the party members, so the Ocotopins just became speed bumps to the party. I needed something to cause them problems. So far the Intellect Devourers caused the most problems. Problem is I messed up a little. I should have had the ceiling of the Mindflayer room be ringed with a line of alcoves 20 ft from the ceiling. They casted Evard's Black Tentacles on the CEILING so it grappled and killed off the Intellect Devourers I replaced the Octopins with.
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In prepping for the Champion Games I've considered changing a few things.
1. Arcana Auriga into a mostly either Elven Caster, or a combo of Sor and Warlocks. (Lots of AoE and Touch Attacks since their AC is probably too high to hit with arrows.)
2. Badland Revenge - Druid and Barbarian Combo (Druid with some of the Stats of Pitch Blade in it.)
3. Sapphire Squad - Mounted on Flying Mounts instead, or having a bunch of halflings mounted on Dinosaurs. (Seeing how they might like being on the other end of the Fleshraker.)
Actually while typing this out, why couldn't I have a Halfling group mounted on Fleshrakers and another Druid Halfing for Badland Revenge. Sounds like that would still be name appropriate.
Sapphire Squad I really want to have Flying Mounts since when meeting flying people that the tentacles would have problems with.
Looking at the 3rd day. I have a surprise with Pitch Blade and I think it'll provide enough enjoyment for them.
4th day, I have got to find a new monster for them to fight. The one listed in the adventure has a tendency to use... Grapple... so I'm looking for creatures that have AoE effects, or can remove buffs.
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Regarding 3, pretty sure there was a height restriction during arena matches. Otherwise, don't surprised if they memorize fly/airwalk .
My Arcane Auriga were warlocks and they did very well against the party. The biggest problem I had with that fight is that it seems cheap to me to have the other 3 groups all jump the party. Me not doing that however meant the party was just able to kinda hang back and pick off who they want.
Regarding 3, pretty sure there was a height restriction during arena matches. Otherwise, don't surprised if they memorize fly/airwalk .
My Arcane Auriga were warlocks and they did very well against the party. The biggest problem I had with that fight is that it seems cheap to me to have the other 3 groups all jump the party. Me not doing that however meant the party was just able to kinda hang back and pick off who they want.
I was thinking that also they were going to try and hang back. The problem so far, is that they have several things drawing attention to themselves. The Druid and his Fleshraker pet are planning to go Huge. (They are large right now, and will probably will be Huge at the Arena due to Enlarge Animal.) So I figured that creates also a HUGE cross hair on both the Druid and the Fleshraker, but everyone will work together to take down the Dinosaur and the Druid. I've warned them certain things will paint crosshairs on their back. (The Wiz mentioned that he was going to cast Invis Sphere and Silence. I figured that would also make the the other groups work together as it puts up a flag that the party will try and kill steal or just wait out the combat and pick off only people.)
If they follow their SOP, the Enlarge on the Fleshrakes and Druid Wildshape will cause everyone to look at them. The Wizard casting Girralon's Blessing (Spell Compendium) then Polymorphing into a Susurrus , will probably paint another one on them. The Cleric, Healer and Warmage will probably be able to avoid attention if they play their cards right, but knowing them they will draw aggro after the 3 big leagues. Especially if they decide to help out.
I'm also upping the CL of the battle. The calculation of the EL for it is a total of all the groups. BUT since the groups are fighting each other, the party technically is not the focus of all the attention (I don't think its fair that the party gets xp for some temporary allies doing the work for them.) So I'm thinking upping it by either 1-3 levels to represent that they are NOT supposed to be focus of the other groups (unless they do really stupid things.)
I'm still trying to find a monster for them to fight on the 3rd arena battle. Need things with AoEs and/or touch attacks. Their armor is still ridiculously high and now their power level is still pretty damned high. They actually one hit killed a few people in the first arena battle.
Some sort of cryo- or pyrohydra? A captured monstrous mage, like an otyugh shaman/badtouch cleric? A pack of shocker lizards can be nasty. And there's always the proud yrthak.