So I got my handy dandy subscriber pdf today. In the spirit of the thread, I would ask that people refrain from copy pasting the texts and would keep to paraphrasing.
Havent had the time to read through it all but Ill start things off interesting. Ranged Feint feat. Rogues rejoice.
What changed with the base class from the play test?
What changed with the base class from the play test?
Not sure how much I can say but it now has Social (on odd levels) and Vigilante (on even levels) Talents. Now you no longer have to rip your hair out deciding combat prowess or social charms. Its a very 'build your own class' feel, which works well for the Vigilante overall.
In addition, the main Vigilante has 2 paths now, the bruiserish Full-BAB fighter and the rogueish 3/4 BAB attacker. Decide at 1st level and continue onward. Some talents are only available to certain path followers and some are general. The ex-Zealot and ex-Warlock have become Archetypes.
@Jedi8187: I can't really answer that unfortunately. Didn't follow the playtest too closely to tell you comparisons.
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Cant tell the differences between playtest and final version as I did not participate in the playtest.
Fighters can grab a Charisma anti dump feat to apply bravery against all mind affecting effects.
All I'm saying is that my BBEG's are going to be happy with Extra Contingency and my Rangers are going to love their version of Unsanctioned Knowledge.
I like a lot of the book's feats and the archetypes are all fairly interesting. I was worried initially about the Vigilante and how messy it was with the multiple paths and archetypes for the paths and such but that has since been quelled. Its much sleeker now and functions great.
@Jedi8187: Not really, its Deity based now. Talents include stuff such as Smite, Channel and other Divine type things.
Dunno bout that but Zealots can smite like a full on paladin. Thats nuts!
@Jedi8187: Not really, its Deity based now. Talents include stuff such as Smite, Channel and other Divine type things.
Can they worship concepts like all other divine classes in existence or just deities?
@Jedi8187: Not really, its Deity based now. Talents include stuff such as Smite, Channel and other Divine type things.Can they worship concepts like all other divine classes in existence or just deities?
Says deities but I dont see why not. You'd lose out on the favored weapon though.
Says deities but I dont see why not. You'd lose out on the favored weapon though.
So that's a no... that's annoying.
I'm currently reading it and typing my thoughts as I read. Will post it tomorrow.
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I am tremendously underwhelmed by most of the archetypes, and even more by how blatantly out of whack they are as compared to each other.
For example, there's the Metamorph Alchemist, which gives up bombs and extracts completely for a limited set of self-polymorph spells X/day, starting with just alter self. Then compare that to skinshaper druid, which trades wild shape for a scaling alter self X/day ability... and still gets full spellcasting and animal companion.
Even the much-hyped vigilante archetypes dip into terribleness all over, like how the brute vigilante gets pretty much all negatives from their transformation (Large size but no ability score increase, rage-like penalties but no buffs, you have spend a talent just to make armor fit you) and has to make a Will save every single time they use their vigilante identity or attack their allies.
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I am tremendously underwhelmed by most of the archetypes, and even more by how blatantly out of whack they are as compared to each other.
For example, there's the Metamorph Alchemist, which gives up bombs and extracts completely for a limited set of self-polymorph spells X/day, starting with just alter self. Then compare that to skinshaper druid, which trades wild shape for a scaling alter self X/day ability... and still gets full spellcasting and animal companion.
Even the much-hyped vigilante archetypes dip into terribleness all over, like how the brute vigilante gets pretty much all negatives from their transformation (Large size but no ability score increase, rage-like penalties but no buffs, you have spend a talent just to make armor fit you) and has to make a Will save every single time they use their vigilante identity or attack their allies.
Metamorph gets to shape change at 1st level, and will always have more uses per day than the Druid, and gets mutagen on top of the shifting for the ability to double up on STR bonuses. Alter self is a huge combat buff at first level, with many forms giving three primary natural attacks with darkvision and a +2 bonus to STR. Discoveries can add more to this as well.
I am tremendously underwhelmed by most of the archetypes, and even more by how blatantly out of whack they are as compared to each other.
For example, there's the Metamorph Alchemist, which gives up bombs and extracts completely for a limited set of self-polymorph spells X/day, starting with just alter self. Then compare that to skinshaper druid, which trades wild shape for a scaling alter self X/day ability... and still gets full spellcasting and animal companion.
Even the much-hyped vigilante archetypes dip into terribleness all over, like how the brute vigilante gets pretty much all negatives from their transformation (Large size but no ability score increase, rage-like penalties but no buffs, you have spend a talent just to make armor fit you) and has to make a Will save every single time they use their vigilante identity or attack their allies.
Metamorph gets to shape change at 1st level, and will always have more uses per day than the Druid, and gets mutagen on top of the shifting for the ability to double up on STR bonuses. Alter self is a huge combat buff at first level, with many forms giving three primary natural attacks with darkvision and a +2 bonus to STR. Discoveries can add more to this as well.
Do they ever get at will shifting? Like at 20th like a druid?
I still feel the Alchemist should have gotten Artificer Archtype in this but over all I love the product.
Metamorph gets to shape change at 1st level, and will always have more uses per day than the Druid, and gets mutagen on top of the shifting for the ability to double up on STR bonuses. Alter self is a huge combat buff at first level, with many forms giving three primary natural attacks with darkvision and a +2 bonus to STR. Discoveries can add more to this as well.
"It can pretend to be a knockoff barbarian at low levels" is not exactly a ringing endorsement.
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Metamorph gets to shape change at 1st level, and will always have more uses per day than the Druid, and gets mutagen on top of the shifting for the ability to double up on STR bonuses. Alter self is a huge combat buff at first level, with many forms giving three primary natural attacks with darkvision and a +2 bonus to STR. Discoveries can add more to this as well."It can pretend to be a knockoff barbarian at low levels" is not exactly a ringing endorsement.
I haven't seen it yet, but Mutagen with the Discoveries to make it good on top of Monstrous Physique III can give you +14 Str, +0 Dex, +8 Con (or +2 Dex, +6 Con if you prefer), +6 Natural Armor (since it doesn't stack) and a size category of Huge. Plus basically any of the creature's abilities you want, most notably flying and pounce.
That's not a small advantage, stat-wise, over anything I can think of a Druid can manage. Really, I think that's the biggest stat bonus a single-classed character can get in the game.
Is it worth spell casting? Probably not. But it's definitely a valid melee class, and has some raw stat advantages over any Druid build I can think of.
Can someone give me a summary of the Cardinal archetype please?
Anything new for the slayer?
Any swashbuckler stuff? Archetypes?
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Can someone give me a summary of the Cardinal archetype please?
It was mentioned by Skeld in the other thread that it gives up spontaneous cures, a Domain, medium armor, and goes to 1/2 BAB. In exchange it gets class skills and 6 skill points per level instead of 2.
Sounds very workable for an offensive caster Cleric.
Any swashbuckler stuff? Archetypes?
Stuff on the archetypes can be found here.
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I am somewhat disappointed with the Vigilante. Many of the issues with it in the playtest have remained unchanged such as making renown increases into social talents that have to be chosen rather than something that just scales as you level. Quick change is also still locked away until 7th level although this is partially remedied with a purchasable consumable. If you can get over these particular issues though, it otherwise seems like a good class.
That being said, the rest of the book seems pretty good. Many of the spells are very shenanigan inducing, so GMs planning on using this book should be prepared for that. Of particular note are the Mass Charm Person, Matchmaker and Crimewave spells. Mass Charm Person is exactly what you think it is, Matchmaker makes two creatures fall in love for quite a long duration and Crimewave causes creatures in the area to, you guessed it, commit crimes! The exact crime is even left up to a percentage die roll! I really feel sorry for any GM who is trying to run a serious and gritty campaign that decides to allow these spells.
On the other hand, the book does include a lot of GM tools such as rules for relationships/favour with NPCs and suggestions for running an Ocean's Eleven type heist that involve the need to split the party for your players so the book does still have a lot of use for the GM that fears the chaos that a PC could bring with these spells.
Overall while I was a little disappointed with the Vigilante, Ultimate Intrigue turned out pretty great and I think it was well worth the price.
Can someone give me a summary of the Cardinal archetype please?
Light armor no shields, add some face skills, 6+Int Skills and one domain. Half BAB
For a more "caster cleric" it seems like an unmitigated disaster!
For a more "caster cleric" it seems like an unmitigated disaster!
Sounds fine to me.
I'm obviously missing something... having trouble accessing the PDF download page
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Do they ever get at will shifting? Like at 20th like a druid?I am tremendously underwhelmed by most of the archetypes, and even more by how blatantly out of whack they are as compared to each other.
For example, there's the Metamorph Alchemist, which gives up bombs and extracts completely for a limited set of self-polymorph spells X/day, starting with just alter self. Then compare that to skinshaper druid, which trades wild shape for a scaling alter self X/day ability... and still gets full spellcasting and animal companion.
Even the much-hyped vigilante archetypes dip into terribleness all over, like how the brute vigilante gets pretty much all negatives from their transformation (Large size but no ability score increase, rage-like penalties but no buffs, you have spend a talent just to make armor fit you) and has to make a Will save every single time they use their vigilante identity or attack their allies.
Metamorph gets to shape change at 1st level, and will always have more uses per day than the Druid, and gets mutagen on top of the shifting for the ability to double up on STR bonuses. Alter self is a huge combat buff at first level, with many forms giving three primary natural attacks with darkvision and a +2 bonus to STR. Discoveries can add more to this as well.
Yes at 20th they can cen change shape as a free action once per round with no daily limit.
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No more TWF with dual rapier dex to damage.
There are still ways to do it. For example, the Whirling Dervish archetype for Swashbucklers from Advanced Class Origins gets;
"Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance ISWG feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites."
Swashbuckler finesse applies to rapiers. Ergo, two rapiers + swashbuckler finesse + dervish dance = TWF with dual rapier dex to damage.
DOH! I thought they had released the PDF early.... its still only available from the 30th right?
DOH! I thought they had released the PDF early.... its still only available from the 30th right?Yes, subscriber's have gotten access to thei pdf copies and are spoiling small parts.
This is the normal release procedure. Subscribers get their pdf when their hard copy ships.
Skeld and Luthorne were kind enough to provide some unarmed combat details from the main Ultimate Intrigue thread:
Fist of the Avenger got a boost from the playtest. The damage bonus is +1/2 level up to a maximum of +5, a significant boost from +1/4.
Street Style feats seem to dramatically improve unarmed combat for style and damage, but only works in urban areas.
The brute archetype goes Hulk/Mr Hyde for a limited amount of time and will saves to not hurt allies (I'm not sure what triggering cases are) with large size (I don't think there's a size bonus to Strength but rather scaling attack and damage bonus to melee attacks) and talents for monk unarmed damage and awesome blow.
Skeld and Luthorne were kind enough to provide some unarmed combat details from the main Ultimate Intrigue thread:
Fist of the Avenger got a boost from the playtest. The damage bonus is +1/2 level up to a maximum of +5, a significant boost from +1/4.
Street Style feats seem to dramatically improve unarmed combat for style and damage, but only works in urban areas.
The brute archetype goes Hulk/Mr Hyde for a limited amount of time and will saves to not hurt allies (I'm not sure what triggering cases are) with large size (I don't think there's a size bonus to Strength but rather scaling attack and damage bonus to melee attacks) and talents for monk unarmed damage and awesome blow.
Wait, if they don't get the size bonus then they'd stack with enlarge person (since they give +0 and enlarge gives +2). I mean, you'd not be larger, but still useful.
Maybe a brute becomes huge size with enlarge person.
The brute archetype goes Hulk/Mr Hyde for a limited amount of time and will saves to not hurt allies (I'm not sure what triggering cases are)
The trigger is not having any enemies to attack on your turn. If you have enemies to attack, you will go after them instead of possibly turning on your allies.
Oh so like the frenzied berserker prestige class all my friends told me I couldn't play in 3.5.
What does the tyrant look like?
What does the tyrant look like?
Check the other thread.
What does the tyrant look like?
Basically just LE.
5th level Profane Bond (or whatnot) must be LE instead of a CE template for the pet.Full disclosure, a lot of the archetypes trade combat prowess for other abilities (some are questionable trades). They make great NPCs and have some neat tools for PCs who like to dip around and steal a few neat features (such as early nondetection and such). Overall the archetypes are neat, but they are limited in scope to Intrigue heavy games (which is definitely fine).
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Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.
Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.
it gives up spontaneous cures, a Domain, medium armor, and goes to 1/2 BAB. In exchange it gets class skills and 6 skill points per level instead of 2.
Sounds very workable for an offensive caster Cleric.
Obviously I will have to wait till the 30th to get my PDF and see the full picture but...
I see absolutely nothing in any of the Cardinal descriptions that would make it a "better caster"!
In every single D6 cleric homebrew I've seen they get more spells not less in exchange for everything they give up!!!
6 skill points/lvl solves very little in that respect.
I LOVE the Spiritualist class, what are the differences between the shadow monster thing in this book and the base Phantom?
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Does the Cardinal have any other class features? Losing cures, a domain, armor and your BAB in exchange for a better set of skills seems like... a really raw deal.
Okay so I did a long post about my first thoughts.
Needed a few glasses of wine to get me through the night but those are my thoughts.
Do you have any examples of feats that do what you thought skills should do normally?