My hard copy is fine all through.
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Hurry up Amazon!!!! :))
I've read a lot about spells and archetypes in discussions of Ultimate Intrigue; does anyone have anything to say about the new social combat system? Like basic rundowns on how it works, what it can do, and the like?
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The basic rundown:
Each duelist has "hp" or determination determined by their mental stats.
Basically, you go back and forth rolling skill checks and upping an ante of determination. If you fail a check, or choose not to attempt it, you lose the current ante in determination.
Where it gets interesting is in the various special effects of tactics, bonuses, and rerolls that are in play.There are 10 tactics such as Flattery, Mockery, and Emotional Appeal. Each tactic has multiple skills associated with it, but you can only assign one tactic to any given skill.
Skill checks are calculated special, using only ranks, class skill bonus, and Charisma (unless you have a feat). Other bonuses (like Skill Focus, or a circlet of persuasion) are translated into rerolls.
I think it is a neat way to make Diplomacy more interesting, varied, and less dependent on a single roll. With verbal duels, social interaction can feel like an actual encounter and not just a combat-ending skill check. It also gives you some numbers to use for idle banter. (And a shout out to Knowledge(history) and (nobility)!)
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I've read a lot about spells and archetypes in discussions of Ultimate Intrigue; does anyone have anything to say about the new social combat system? Like basic rundowns on how it works, what it can do, and the like?
I kind of like it. Even if ultimately it is just skill checks.
Run down:
Before you start you can try to get the audience on you side (give them a bias which let you get rerolls)
You have your Determination (like hp but for verbal duels)
There are tactics that you use and get bonus or penalties on what they are used vs.
So, it goes like this:
One side choose an opening tactic makes skill roll (different tactics have different skill they can use)
The other side then has to use a tactic to counter and beat the roll of the first.
repeat until someone fails the roll or ends the exchange.
Then reduces there Determination based on the ante at the time
Ante each time someone use a tactic the ant will go up (sometimes down).
After the exchange if over if both side still have Determination and want to continue. The one that end the exchange goes first.
Hope that makes sense.
edit: Ninja'ed
Anyone else with their hard copy, do you have same faint pages, too?That's supposed to be 'some'....stupid autocorrect.
To save me some time checking my copy -- which pages are faint in your copy?
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:o Thanks! The section is basically a combination of mostly potential Blog FAQ material I had written a while back (including the example of play from my divinations blog FAQ, cribbed from how I run those spells; I usually do extemporaneous sonnets for divination, or other poem types if the deity would warrant it, like a haiku for the Monkey King) with an excellent spell breakdown from the freelancer that allowed me to add more spells that weren't in the blog FAQ (incidentally, if/when we get a simulacrum blog FAQ, my draft blog FAQ on that spell is written to that level of attention and examples, which is why it's so long). The way of dividing it by level bands, though, was Stephen's idea, and it makes it much more usable than when I initially did it by schools alone, and then Logan found things to clarify in his development pass...basically, we had a lot of eyes on this one. Have you seen Skills in Conflict from the next chapter? It's similar, but for the toughest skill adjudications rather than spell adjudications.I am LOVING the Spells of Intrigue section!
It singlehandedly closes NUMEROUS how-to-adjudicate-this-spell arguments seen here on these boards.
The example of play used to describe the spells divination and vision is ART. The fact that GMs will now know how to handle charm person or interaction with illusions is only a SMALL part of what it provides!
I can't wait to get my pdf copy on the 30th (sadly I am not a subscriber like most). Then, I plan to get the hard copy. I will post a review for you once I do.
I can't wait to get my pdf copy on the 30th (sadly I am not a subscriber like most). Then, I plan to get the hard copy. I will post a review for you once I do.:o Thanks! The section is basically a combination of mostly potential Blog FAQ material I had written a while back (including the example of play from my divinations blog FAQ, cribbed from how I run those spells; I usually do extemporaneous sonnets for divination, or other poem types if the deity would warrant it, like a haiku for the Monkey King) with an excellent spell breakdown from the freelancer that allowed me to add more spells that weren't in the blog FAQ (incidentally, if/when we get a simulacrum blog FAQ, my draft blog FAQ on that spell is written to that level of attention and examples, which is why it's so long). The way of dividing it by level bands, though, was Stephen's idea, and it makes it much more usable than when I initially did it by schools alone, and then Logan found things to clarify in his development pass...basically, we had a lot of eyes on this one. Have you seen Skills in Conflict from the next chapter? It's similar, but for the toughest skill adjudications rather than spell adjudications.I am LOVING the Spells of Intrigue section!
It singlehandedly closes NUMEROUS how-to-adjudicate-this-spell arguments seen here on these boards.
The example of play used to describe the spells divination and vision is ART. The fact that GMs will now know how to handle charm person or interaction with illusions is only a SMALL part of what it provides!
Thanks Flynn. And hey, it's only another week now until it hits. I'm guessing it will be worth the wait!
King of Anything, Azouth, thanks for the response to my question. It sounds like it's going to make for some great reading and use when I finally get my copy of the book.
Anyone else with their hard copy, do you have same faint pages, too?That's supposed to be 'some'....stupid autocorrect.To save me some time checking my copy -- which pages are faint in your copy?
p 225
p 232
p 249
p 252-3
I did not see that problem, but I did notice some minor warping/waviness on the earlier pages of the book, as though the book got a little bit wet in transit.
Hurry up Amazon!!!! :))
Ditto!!!
Hurry up Amazon!!!! :))Ditto!!!
If Amazon is slow like it sometimes is, you can always grab the pdf next week to tide you over! ;)
True that...
*starts patiently refreshing the product page....*
If Amazon is slow like it sometimes is, you can always grab the pdf next week to tide you over! ;)Hurry up Amazon!!!! :))Ditto!!!
You might just tempt me ;)
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I can't wait to get my pdf copy on the 30th (sadly I am not a subscriber like most). Then, I plan to get the hard copy. I will post a review for you once I do.:o Thanks! The section is basically a combination of mostly potential Blog FAQ material I had written a while back (including the example of play from my divinations blog FAQ, cribbed from how I run those spells; I usually do extemporaneous sonnets for divination, or other poem types if the deity would warrant it, like a haiku for the Monkey King) with an excellent spell breakdown from the freelancer that allowed me to add more spells that weren't in the blog FAQ (incidentally, if/when we get a simulacrum blog FAQ, my draft blog FAQ on that spell is written to that level of attention and examples, which is why it's so long). The way of dividing it by level bands, though, was Stephen's idea, and it makes it much more usable than when I initially did it by schools alone, and then Logan found things to clarify in his development pass...basically, we had a lot of eyes on this one. Have you seen Skills in Conflict from the next chapter? It's similar, but for the toughest skill adjudications rather than spell adjudications.I am LOVING the Spells of Intrigue section!
It singlehandedly closes NUMEROUS how-to-adjudicate-this-spell arguments seen here on these boards.
The example of play used to describe the spells divination and vision is ART. The fact that GMs will now know how to handle charm person or interaction with illusions is only a SMALL part of what it provides!
Be a subscriber! Paying for the PDF and the physical copy is just foreign to me after being spoiled as a subscriber.
Re: summon nature's ally
Or multiple cyclops auto-threatening criticals with a greataxe. If you have a round to pre-buff, give them all oils of bless weapon.
On a tangent, think of the freaky things you can do as a GM with a cyclops eyebiter mesmerist... especially if you can pick up blindsense or blind sight (or after 11th level with Omnivisual).
Also, adding elements of the heist guidelines to normal adventure design is probably a good idea: researching the site/encounters, scouting, planning the approach/penetration, etc. to reach the goal, instead of just bulling through obstacles. Granted, some "old school" gamers already did this; however, the "kick down the door" style of adventuring has been around since the beginning, so it's easy and familiar.
Barely skimmed this, started the spells for my first serious read through.
Initial thoughts:
1. We can now stat Nostradamus. He was a level 16 Psychic with the Fortune Teller feat who just spammed True Prognostication every day for years and then wrote up a selection of his results.
2. Conditional Curse is my new favorite spell in the game and excellent tool for any spellcaster acting as a vigilante. You can curse an evildoer with a conditional removal if he confesses to his crimes and turns himself in. Or you can take some mental revenge and add insult to injury by adding a condition that the curse ends if they provide sexual favors to a dozen beggars in the town square on market day. Trolling, Golarion style.
3. This book adds a lot of narrowly situational but useful enchantment spells. Greater Shadow Enchantment is becoming a ridiculously necessary tool for spontaneous casters.
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I love the new cavalier and skald archetypes. The Daring General is great, and I love the Battle Scion and Warlord.
I love the spells, though the illustration for wizened appearance (the one that makes you look older) creeped me out a little. Mostly because I'd been reading up on daemonic harbingers lately, like Folca.
That said it sounds like a great spell for a low-level caster to employ as a 'curse'. "Pay me off, your ladyship, or stay a wrinkled old biddy!"
The Greater Peacebond spell lets GMs troll the hell out of dex to damage build PCs. Fail your will save and you have to make a Strength check (incurring an AoO each time) to retain/draw/pickup your weapon. At a DC equal to the spell (15+stat). You're not going to make that with your dumped or average strength, so I hope you've got a good will save.
Also with a chance to strip rods/wants/staves from spellcasters. Go team monk/brawler!
Here's my callouts and some thoughts on interesting (not always useful) spells from this book:
The Hallucination line of spells: (includes Auditory Hallucination, Audiovisual Hallucination, Complex Hallucination, Permanent Hallucination, Scripted Hallucination, Triggered Hallucination) These introduce phantasms in a group that take cues from the targets own mind, so you can describe what effect you want and they fill in the details. Example given is you have orc warriors believe their chieftain is calling for help, which they hear even if you don't speak Orcish and don't know what the chieftain's voice sounds like. Upsides are you can mess with someone in a crowd without others perceiving the same thing, no True Seeing vulnerability, extra flexibility on effects. Downsides: everyone gets an initial disbelief save, extra saves are likely if someone saves and compares notes with his friends who are acting oddly, doesn't effect immune to mind affecting targets.
Break, Greater: Break every object within 30' (including yours) that fails a saving throw. For visiting china shops.
Conditional Curse: Curse is harder to remove, but subject is aware of a condition it can fulfill to automatically lift it. Good for blackmail or psychological warfare. ("Donate 5000 GP to the church of Sarenrae to remove this curse.")
Conditional Favor: Revoke a buff or healing spell you cast after this if they violate a condition.
Conjuration Foil: Immediate action to boost your saves against hostile teleportation (e.g. Plane Shift) and/or damage anyone who teleports in/out of your immediate area and bounce them to a random location. Would be better if you could pick where they go.
Crime Wave: It's Confusion, but for crime. Act normally but with suspicion imposed defensive/cooperative limitations, steal something (usually causing a AoO), attempt to break nearest unattended object/structure (requiring movement and possible AoO), or attack nearest person.
Deadman's Contingency: A limited number of spells (including Teleport Object for your body or Sending to alert an ally/healer) can be set to go off shortly after your death.
Demanding Message (Mass): As Message, but you can use a standard action to send a suggestion to one target during the duration. They're still going to see you cast the original spell, so not a way around IDing spell casting like I originally thought, but may have some sneaky use I haven't thought of beyond betrayal of allies.
Detect Anxieties/Desires: Like Detect Thoughts, but you see what those you scan are most worried about or desire, and you get their exact Wisdom/Charisma scores. Finally a way for Wisdom/Charisma casters to identify candidates for training.
Detect Magic, Greater: Find spell auras for day/level after, identify spell signatures associated with specific casters, concentrate to ID last spell cast by someone.
Entice Fey (Lesser, Greater): Planar ally, but for fey.
Hidden Presence: Unbeatable invisibility (vs. True Seeing, Blindsight, etc.) but only against those you target and if they fail a save. There is not a Greater version that lets you attack with impunity.
Know Peerage: Has the distinction of being the most useless spell in the book. You can grant up to 5 ranks of Knowledge (Nobility) to an ally. Paizo, fire someone over this.
Life of Crime: A permanent curse that prevents you from working with others including accepting harmless spell effects, so stack this with a regular curse and even if they ask someone to remove it, they'll try to save against the removal. Once per hour they must save or do a 1 round Crime Wave, so that's 16 opportunities per day to attack someone, steal something, or smash something. They aren't likely to live/stay out of prison long if they stay in a community.
Mage's Decree: Send a 25 word message to those meeting identifiable, visible criteria. Range is up to 1 mile per level. So tell the whole city/county that their ruler's mother was a hamster, and his father smelled of elderberries (as often as you care to expend 5/6th level slots), or pass secret messages to your conspirators throughout a city wearing a special mark (e.g. a flower in their lapel), everyone wearing your deity's holy symbol, every non-drow wearing chains in the drow city, etc.
Magic Aura, Greater: Fake spell signatures (see Detect Magic, Greater), fool Arcane Sight (nope, I can't cast spells), hide/fake multiple spell effects on a creature.
Matchmaker: Two people become romantically attracted to each other. Both must fail their saves.
Obscure Poison: A way to get around the Detect Poison effect applied to the king's food.
Overwhelming Poison: Delay poison doesn't work, Neutralize Poison has a higher DC, and you can replace the poison DC with the spell DC. Lasts 10/min, so you could buy it from a friendly witch specializing in necromancy to have really hard to resist poison on that bolt you're firing at the king, I guess.
Peacebond, Greater: HAHAHAHAHAHA. Suck it, dex to damage builds! Multiple targets make a will save or you have to make a Strength check equal to the spell DC to prevent your weapon from being sheathed. (It's going to be 20+) Once it's sheathed you have to spend a standard action to attempt the Strength check and eat an AoO to draw it. You should have gone for a +10 to Str if you didn't want to be a monk or a caster, weaklings!
Phantasmal Affliction: Give an illusion of a curse (-4 to everything version for hour/level), poison (at least six rounds, 1d3 damage to a physical stat of your choice), or disease (fatigued and 1d4 Con damage per day). Curse gets 2 Will saves to avoid, disease/poison get Will save and recurring Fort save. Not likely to work well without some illusion spell focus and/or Persistent Spell, but nice idea for the flexibility.
Prognostication (and True version): Divination, but receive advice on things 1 year or 100 years in the future. A useful GM tool to guide long campaigns.
Red Hand of the Killer: Marks whoever killed your target corpse, 1 day/level and over any distance. Fixable with gloves (or Dispel Magic), but it's worth a try or wait for a lineup of suspects. Or combo with Mage's Decree. ("Citizens! A killer lurks amongst you! Do you see a man with a hand marked red? Report him to the nearest constable at once!")
Resplendent Mansion: Create yo' crib, you earned it, shorty. (Succubus strippers in the hot tub not included, standard Planar Ally rates may apply.)
Shamefully Overdressed: You have a compulsion to spend a move action every turn taking off a random item of clothing that can be removed with one move action. It doesn't say it, but this should invoke AoOs, right? You still get your standard/swift action.
Trace Teleport: It's sort of what you wanted. Maybe. Lets you know if someone teleports in/out within 40' (uh...thanks?). You can also concentrate for 1 round to get a glimpse of where they went to or came from. Not good enough to Teleport "or similar effects," but I'm going to assume this spell isn't entirely useful and you can still follow them with Greater Teleport.
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Detect Magic, Greater: Find spell auras for day/level after, identify spell signatures associated with specific casters, concentrate to ID last spell cast by someone.
Now casting for CSI: Absalom.
Know Peerage: Has the distinction of being the most useless spell in the book. You can grant up to 5 ranks of Knowledge (Nobility) to an ally. Paizo, fire someone over this.
Sounds great for heists, or other times you need to do some social engineering. As long as the spell lasts for an hour per level, this would be very useful for easily fitting in at noble dinner parties.
Thanks for the rundown, BTW. Haven't had the time to read the book yet.
I'll wait for my first read-through until I either got the physical copy or my new larger 27' monitor, which I can also rotate sideways 90 degrees. But what I am reading here sounds very, very good indeed.
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Detect Magic, Greater: Find spell auras for day/level after, identify spell signatures associated with specific casters, concentrate to ID last spell cast by someone.Now casting for CSI: Absalom.
Red Hand of the Killer: "If the the red hand does not appear, you must let my client disappear."
Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities in my opinion, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.
Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.
I would argue that it does not make any sense to get rid of mutagen. After all, the archetype is all about altering yourself.
Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.I would argue that it does not make any sense to get rid of mutagen. After all, the archetype is all about altering yourself.
I totally understand your perspective on that, it's just a personal thing with me. I hate the whole Jekyll/Hyde flavor of mutagen and would've preferred keeping extracts, or getting something new instead.
To me, Alchemists are supposed to be smart. A class feature that makes you dumber isn't something I would ever use.
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Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.I would argue that it does not make any sense to get rid of mutagen. After all, the archetype is all about altering yourself.I totally understand your perspective on that, it's just a personal thing with me. I hate the whole Jekyll/Hyde flavor of mutagen and would've preferred keeping extracts, or getting something new instead.
To me, Alchemists are supposed to be smart. A class feature that makes you dumber isn't something I would ever use.
If you like, since mutagen is stripped out of alchemy, consider it to be something that increases your inherent metamorphing to the next level. The cool thing about the way it works, actually, is that metamorph doesn't have any built-in Int-dependency (barring picking a discovery that adds Int back in, like Sticky Poison), so you're free to pick ability scores in other ways, like potentially Wis or Cha as your best mental score.
Interesting perspective Mark, I hadn't thought of it that way. Gives me something to consider!
I think my favorite archetype is the Social Fencer, the one that can add exploding d6's to their Social Skills.
I'm...disappointed by the tyrant archetype. It isn't actually an archetype; it's basically just an official ruling that antipaladins can be lawful. Like, that's good, since there are some out there who don't like houseruling that or whatever, but... The spell list? The whole anarchic/axiomatic oversight? It feels frankly lazy. I was pumped for that and it's a letdown.
Still looking over the rest of the material.
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I'm...disappointed by the tyrant archetype. It isn't actually an archetype; it's basically just an official ruling that antipaladins can be lawful. Like, that's good, since there are some out there who don't like houseruling that or whatever, but... The spell list? The whole anarchic/axiomatic oversight? It feels frankly lazy. I was pumped for that and it's a letdown.
Still looking over the rest of the material.
I have to agree, sadly. I was excited for this in preparation for playing a Lawful Evil Anti-Paladin in Hell's Vengeance. This so-called 'Archetype' is the very height of laziness. I was so excited for this archetype it was the first thing I looked at in the book, only to be met with crushing disappointment.
I've only given the rest of it a cursory glance, but that was a serious thumbs down, Paizo. Bad show.
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With regards to the Tyrant, gotta agree, height of laziness. But it's still better than the terrible Gray Paladin. Just think, the Tyrant could of been something truly terrible if they actually tried to make it unique like that. Sadly I suppose that means we just got lazy instead.
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Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities in my opinion, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.
There's a few archetypes that only replace Mutagen. You could stack them with Metamorph.
Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities in my opinion, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.There's a few archetypes that only replace Mutagen. You could stack them with Metamorph.
Interesting idea, one I'll have to look into. Thanks!
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Wow. People are bitter.
Grey Paladin has some advantages over normal Paladin. Smiting non-Evil stuff is huge, for example.
And Tyrant not having a sentence about changing spells is clearly an error...but no book is error fee, and there aren't an unreasonable number in this one from what I hear.
I'm...disappointed by the tyrant archetype. It isn't actually an archetype; it's basically just an official ruling that antipaladins can be lawful. ... It feels frankly lazy. I was pumped for that and it's a letdown.
I have to agree, sadly. I was excited for this in preparation for playing a Lawful Evil Anti-Paladin in Hell's Vengeance. This so-called 'Archetype' is the very height of laziness. I was so excited for this archetype it was the first thing I looked at in the book, only to be met with crushing disappointment.
I've only given the rest of it a cursory glance, but that was a serious thumbs down, Paizo. Bad show.
With regards to the Tyrant, gotta agree, height of laziness. But it's still better than the terrible Gray Paladin. Just think, the Tyrant could of been something truly terrible if they actually tried to make it unique like that. Sadly I suppose that means we just got lazy instead.
To be fair, the Tyrant was exactly what the majority of people were asking for in the threads on this topic, like this one:
Asmodean Antipaladin archetype with the upcoming AP?
E.g., James Jacobs asks:
Warpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
And the most favorited reply (by far) is:
At least in my case it's the full Paladin package. Full base attack (not 3/4 BAB but sometimes full due to a limited/optional/temporary/spell-based mechanic), 4-level spell list, Smite, Lay on Hands, Channel, Mercy, code of conduct, the whole shebang.
So I think this is just a case of Paizo giving people what they asked for.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I've only finished reading through chapter 1, and like many of the archetypes. However, I'm still not at all a fan of the Vigilante, I still feel it should be a prestige class that any class can take. Since that ship has sailed though, I was very surprised/disappointed that there was no fighter archetype which allowed for selecting avenger talents. There are several which do fighty things a fighter can't do, which seems wrong.
Interesting idea, one I'll have to look into. Thanks!Metamorph is my new favorite archetype. Giving up extracts is a hefty downside though, and being forced to keep Mutagen, which is the worst of the core alchemist abilities in my opinion, is yet another negative. However, still very flavorful and looks like it would be fun to play.There's a few archetypes that only replace Mutagen. You could stack them with Metamorph.
I don't think you can since you lost the base mutagen ability and the mutagen you get is a different ability. So you don't have the base mutagen ability to trade out.
I don't think you can since you lost the base mutagen ability and the mutagen you get is a different ability. So you don't have the base mutagen ability to trade out.
Considering Metamorphs are pretty gimped by losing access to basically everything besides Mutagens, to remove even Mutagens from them seems like a contender for worst build I've seen in a while. That said, the Metamorph mutagen clearly states it isn't replacing, or altering mutagen, and is merely "mutagen as a normal alchemist".
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I don't think you can since you lost the base mutagen ability and the mutagen you get is a different ability. So you don't have the base mutagen ability to trade out.Considering Metamorphs are pretty gimped by losing access to basically everything besides Mutagens, to remove even Mutagens from them seems like a contender for worst build I've seen in a while. That said, the Metamorph mutagen clearly states it isn't replacing, or altering mutagen, and is merely "mutagen as a normal alchemist".
Yeah, it just points out you can still take Mutagen discoveries despite not having alchemy is all.
This ability replaces alchemy (which also includes bombs,
extracts, and mutagen) and Throw Anything
Mutagen (Ex) is it's own separate new ability. Alchemists don't have this mutagen ability.
This ability replaces alchemy (which also includes bombs,
extracts, and mutagen) and Throw AnythingMutagen (Ex) is it's own separate new ability. Alchemists don't have this mutagen ability.
But it also states "At 1st level, a metamorph gains mutagen as a normal alchemist."