I was thinking about making the jump into Pathfinder Society, and I was wondering how much "combat power" my character needs? I understand that I need to be able to contribute meaningfully in combat, but I'm not really sure how high the bar is set. I'm imagining a fighter built to be able to contribute in an out-of-combat situation, sacrificing some damage-dealing potential for skills, but I'm having problems guessing how much combat I can sacrifice before I'm reducing my group's chance of success (instead of increasing it, which is the goal of diversifying).
The reason I ask is because most fighter builds I see around here are built for max damage potential. Also, most criticisms I see about fighter builds is that they don't do anything but fight.
Example character follows:
Human Fighter (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior)
Traits: Pragmatic Activator, Student of Philosophy
Skill Points: 5/lvl + 2/lvl (familiar)
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 11
Cha: 7
1: Weapon Focus, Fast Learner, Familiar (Thrush, Sage)
2: x
3: Power Attack, Mutagen
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Iron Will
6: Deadly Aim
7: Improved Familiar (Pooka, Sage), Mutation Discovery (Wings)
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Improved Critical
10: Critical Focus
11: Mutation Discovery (Preserve Organs)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
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First, let me say that you don't have to be fully optimized for PFS, almost any level of optimization is fine. If you can contribute meaningfully in the scenario and fulfill the role you intend for your character than you're fine.
Second, I think you see a lot more discussion of optimization in forums like this as it is quantifiable and easier to talk about than a more niche build or a flavor concept. (Personally, I probably tend more to the optimized side of a build, but that doesn't necessarily mean optimized for combat either.)
Good strength and a two handed weapon and you'll be fine.
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You are going to run into a (small) minority of people who will argue that even though your eldrich fighter treats his fighter level as wizard levels for purposes of familiars, that since your character does not have an Arcane (Caster level)* he does not qualify for improved familiar.
They are (in my opinion) wrong, but you might ask around locally to see if you are going to have to deal with it.
*I.E. He is unable to cast an arcane spell at caster level 7.
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Sorry didn't even look at your stats at first as I wanted to double check a couple of things.
Everything looks fine, my only question in the build is why Deadly Aim? Unless I'm missing something the rest of the build seems to be focused on a single melee weapon and being a fairly decent skill monkey. Deadly Aim just seems a bit out of place.
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Pay no attention to people who say Eldritch Guardian can't take Improved Familiar. Your effective wizard level for your familiar is equal to your fighter level. You qualify for Improved Familiar.
Sometimes, another player (or worst of all, a GM) will disagree with perfectly valid rules. I've had a GM give enemies a cover bonus to will saves. I've had a GM say that some perfectly legal archetype combos were illegal. I've even had a GM try to ban my Bladebound Magus because he didn't like intelligent magic items.
You have to deal with disagreements like this sometimes - but that's no reason to pass up on a perfectly legal character option.
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You are going to run into a (small) minority of people who will argue that even though your eldrich fighter treats his fighter level as wizard levels for purposes of familiars, that since your character does not have an Arcane (Caster level)* he does not qualify for improved familiar.
They are (in my opinion) wrong, but you might ask around locally to see if you are going to have to deal with it.
*I.E. He is unable to cast an arcane spell at caster level 7.
If anyone objects on this basis, you can simply point out that the feat doesn't actually say "caster level," it says "spellcaster level."
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Same problem with Oracles or Clerics taking Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and Improved Familiar.
Somewhere along the chain it requires "Arcane spellcaster level". While I agree that counting as Sorcerer qualifies as counting as an Arcane spellcaster, plenty of people disagree, since you can't actually cast arcane spells, and the intention truly isn't clear to me.
I submitted it for the Campaign Clarifications document for this reason.
18 str (Honestly I think 16 even would be fine)? 14 con? Power attack? You're good.
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Pay no attention to people who say Eldritch Guardian can't take Improved Familiar. Your effective wizard level for your familiar is equal to your fighter level. You qualify for Improved Familiar.
The rules on this are unclear. Personally, I agree that you would qualify for improved familiar but GMs who disagree are not breaking the rules or doing something wrong. Table variation IS a possibility
People need to ease up on the weird rules interpretations that invalidate builds....
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The rules on this are unclear. Personally, I agree that you would qualify for improved familiar but GMs who disagree are not breaking the rules or doing something wrong. Table variation IS a possibilityPay no attention to people who say Eldritch Guardian can't take Improved Familiar. Your effective wizard level for your familiar is equal to your fighter level. You qualify for Improved Familiar.
Yes, I know. All rules are subjective, everyone reads them with their own interpretation. The point is, you don't need to throw out a build just because someone might see it differently.
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Yes, I know. All rules are subjective, everyone reads them with their own interpretation. The point is, you don't need to throw out a build just because someone might see it differently.The rules on this are unclear. Personally, I agree that you would qualify for improved familiar but GMs who disagree are not breaking the rules or doing something wrong. Table variation IS a possibilityPay no attention to people who say Eldritch Guardian can't take Improved Familiar. Your effective wizard level for your familiar is equal to your fighter level. You qualify for Improved Familiar.
I'm not making an opinion on this particular build.
However, we need to stop villainizing GMs who interpret things differently and are just trying to follow the rules.
Sorry didn't even look at your stats at first as I wanted to double check a couple of things.
Everything looks fine, my only question in the build is why Deadly Aim? Unless I'm missing something the rest of the build seems to be focused on a single melee weapon and being a fairly decent skill monkey. Deadly Aim just seems a bit out of place.
I put Deadly Aim there for:
1. Engaging an enemy who is either out of charging range or a bad idea to engage in melee
2. For the Pooka to contribute, assuming I have access to Tiny weapons.
When I thought of this build before, I had Extra Talent in there to nab more class skills, but it slipped my mind when I posted.
To tell the truth, this build is basically an example build to ask this question about the expected power level of PFS. Most of the forum builds I see have been of the uber-power variety, which must be useful when everything goes pear-shaped. Since most of the complaints I see are about how Fighters don't meaningfully contribute outside of combat, I was curious exactly how much power could be given up for utility.
I appreciate your and everyone's insight. Thank you.
Yes, I know. All rules are subjective, everyone reads them with their own interpretation. The point is, you don't need to throw out a build just because someone might see it differently.The rules on this are unclear. Personally, I agree that you would qualify for improved familiar but GMs who disagree are not breaking the rules or doing something wrong. Table variation IS a possibilityPay no attention to people who say Eldritch Guardian can't take Improved Familiar. Your effective wizard level for your familiar is equal to your fighter level. You qualify for Improved Familiar.
I'm not making an opinion on this particular build.
However, we need to stop villainizing GMs who interpret things differently and are just trying to follow the rules.
I've got to admit that <table variation> is the most daunting part about starting Pathfinder Society. It's like waking up in the morning and having no idea how physics will behave today.
Was no one going to mention that Mutation Warrior is barred due to Additional Resources?
It was called out as legal on the 20151223 Additional Resources, but I must admit that I haven't checked the newer docucment.
edited to add a reply to a different post and not spam the thread
Hex channeler, mutation warrior, and primal companion hunter are now legal for play.
mutation warrior is legal.
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Yes, I know. All rules are subjective, everyone reads them with their own interpretation. The point is, you don't need to throw out a build just because someone might see it differently.The rules on this are unclear. Personally, I agree that you would qualify for improved familiar but GMs who disagree are not breaking the rules or doing something wrong. Table variation IS a possibilityPay no attention to people who say Eldritch Guardian can't take Improved Familiar. Your effective wizard level for your familiar is equal to your fighter level. You qualify for Improved Familiar.
I'm not making an opinion on this particular build.
However, we need to stop villainizing GMs who interpret things differently and are just trying to follow the rules.
I've got to admit that <table variation> is the most daunting part about starting Pathfinder Society. It's like waking up in the morning and having no idea how physics will behave today.
I think most of the grar about disallowing builds that are questionable as to how the rules work, is mostly bluster here on the forums to be honest. In real life, when faced with a real person, most people won't sweat the small stuff and only really make a huge deal over the really obvious and egregious stuff (like playing a drow or 30 point buy).
It seems that having effective wizard levels for the purpose of a familiar would allow you to take Improved Familiar. But one thing you can do to help mitigate most table variation for yourself, is take an informal poll of most of the GMs you'd be playing with in your area.
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The errata'ed mutation warior is no longer the ultimate dip class so it's legal again.
I'll make an Eldritch Guardian the instant this fellow becomes accessible. What a cool critter.
I'm one that says Eldritch guardian doesn't qualify you for Improved familiar. Why? Cause it says "gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability." so you have effective wizard levels for your familiar and only your familiar.
What does the FEAT say it needs? Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
And what's below?
Arcane Spellcaster Level
Does the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels? No.
Does the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels for feats? No.
Does the fighter's count as a wizard for feats? No.
Does the fighter have effective wizard levels for feats? No.
Is the Improved Familiar Feat your familiar ability? No.
There's not a single rule that supports you getting improved familiars with an Eldritch Guardian.
EDIT: Now I know a lot of people feel that if you have a familiar you should be able to get the feat and rule that you can. That's fine, I'm not going to argue that they have to change their minds on this. But if I'm making the ruling, it needs some sort of support or else it's not going to fly. And I'm not aware of any Dev posts to explain RAI, so I go with RAW which I've posted above.
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I'm one that says Eldritch guardian doesn't qualify you for Improved familiar. Why? Cause it says "gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability." so you have effective wizard levels for your familiar and only your familiar.
What does the FEAT say it needs? Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
And what's below?
Arcane Spellcaster LevelDoes the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels? No.
Does the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels for feats? No.
Does the fighter's count as a wizard for feats? No.
Does the fighter have effective wizard levels for feats? No.
Is the Improved Familiar Feat your familiar ability? No.There's not a single rule that supports you getting improved familiars with an Eldritch Guardian.
EDIT: Now I know a lot of people feel that if you have a familiar you should be able to get the feat and rule that you can. That's fine, I'm not going to argue that they have to change their minds on this. But if I'm making the ruling, it needs some sort of support or else it's not going to fly. And I'm not aware of any Dev posts to explain RAI, so I go with RAW which I've posted above.
The fundamental difference in the interpretation is the following:
What does "At 1st level, an eldritch guardian gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level." actually mean?
The word I bolded above, "this" is pretty telling actually.
I think I'll change my opinion to the Eldritch Guardian actually would not be able to take Improved Familiar. The ability above does not indicate they get effective wizard levels for familiar purposes. They only count as a wizard of their fighter level for this ability.
No other language is necessary to argue this point.
However, if you interpret that being considered a wizard for gaining a familiar equals being considered a wizard for the improved familiar feat, I can see an argument for that. However, the word this does not seem to agree with that sentiment.
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Unless something changed that I missed familiars cannot wield weapons of any kind.Sorry didn't even look at your stats at first as I wanted to double check a couple of things.
Everything looks fine, my only question in the build is why Deadly Aim? Unless I'm missing something the rest of the build seems to be focused on a single melee weapon and being a fairly decent skill monkey. Deadly Aim just seems a bit out of place.
I put Deadly Aim there for:
1. Engaging an enemy who is either out of charging range or a bad idea to engage in melee
2. For the Pooka to contribute, assuming I have access to Tiny weapons.
Since when?
There's not a single rule that supports you getting improved familiars with an Eldritch Guardian.
EDIT: Now I know a lot of people feel that if you have a familiar you should be able to get the feat and rule that you can. That's fine, I'm not going to argue that they have to change their minds on this. But if I'm making the ruling, it needs some sort of support or else it's not going to fly. And I'm not aware of any Dev posts to explain RAI, so I go with RAW which I've posted above.
Then please reconsider controversial rulings that negate peoples builds. You know everyone else is looking at this and everyone else is deciding that they can take the familiar. You cannot legitimately expect people to read the rules the same way you do if people are not reading the rules the same way you are. The idea that there is one true raw and only one legitimate way to read things is a myth.
The feat requires an arcane caster
Wizards are arcane casters
You count as a wizard
You count as an arcane caster.
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Has there ever been a way to figure cost for tiny weapons? If not there is no legal way to buy a tiny weapon therefore no weapons are allowed.Since when?Unless something changed that I missed familiars cannot wield weapons of any kind.Sorry didn't even look at your stats at first as I wanted to double check a couple of things.
Everything looks fine, my only question in the build is why Deadly Aim? Unless I'm missing something the rest of the build seems to be focused on a single melee weapon and being a fairly decent skill monkey. Deadly Aim just seems a bit out of place.
I put Deadly Aim there for:
1. Engaging an enemy who is either out of charging range or a bad idea to engage in melee
2. For the Pooka to contribute, assuming I have access to Tiny weapons.
Improved Familiars come with the items their stat block shows and that their picture shows. So if you have a tiny familiar that shows a picture with a rapier, that familiar would have a rapier.
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Where do you get that? The feat says nothing about that.Improved Familiars come with the items their stat block shows and that their picture shows. So if you have a tiny familiar that shows a picture with a rapier, that familiar would have a rapier.Has there ever been a way to figure cost for tiny weapons? If not there is no legal way to buy a tiny weapon therefore no weapons are allowed.Since when?Unless something changed that I missed familiars cannot wield weapons of any kind.Sorry didn't even look at your stats at first as I wanted to double check a couple of things.
Everything looks fine, my only question in the build is why Deadly Aim? Unless I'm missing something the rest of the build seems to be focused on a single melee weapon and being a fairly decent skill monkey. Deadly Aim just seems a bit out of place.
I put Deadly Aim there for:
1. Engaging an enemy who is either out of charging range or a bad idea to engage in melee
2. For the Pooka to contribute, assuming I have access to Tiny weapons.
The feat doesn't need to say anything about it.
But isn't it interesting that a Lyraken Azata, Imp, and Quasit don't have weapons in their stat blocks?
But the arbiter inevitable should get a short sword. Just a standard short sword.
Has there ever been a way to figure cost for tiny weapons? If not there is no legal way to buy a tiny weapon therefore no weapons are allowed.
Iron lords transforming slivers on a small weapon will get you a tiny weapon.
Animal companions have a blanket ban on using weapons. Its not clear if thats supposed to apply to familiars.
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.
Most critters are proficient with things in their description.
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I'm one that says Eldritch guardian doesn't qualify you for Improved familiar. Why? Cause it says "gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability." so you have effective wizard levels for your familiar and only your familiar.
What does the FEAT say it needs? Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
And what's below?
Arcane Spellcaster LevelDoes the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels? No.
Does the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels for feats? No.
Does the fighter's count as a wizard for feats? No.
Does the fighter have effective wizard levels for feats? No.
Is the Improved Familiar Feat your familiar ability? No.There's not a single rule that supports you getting improved familiars with an Eldritch Guardian.
EDIT: Now I know a lot of people feel that if you have a familiar you should be able to get the feat and rule that you can. That's fine, I'm not going to argue that they have to change their minds on this. But if I'm making the ruling, it needs some sort of support or else it's not going to fly. And I'm not aware of any Dev posts to explain RAI, so I go with RAW which I've posted above.
The fundamental difference in the interpretation is the following:
What does "At 1st level, an eldritch guardian gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level." actually mean?
The word I bolded above, "this" is pretty telling actually.
I think I'll change my opinion to the Eldritch Guardian actually would not be able to take Improved Familiar. The ability above does not indicate they get effective wizard levels for familiar purposes. They only count as a wizard of their fighter level for this ability.
No other language is necessary to argue this point.
However, if you interpret that being considered a...
But the Improved Familiar feat is not an entirely different ability. It modifies your Familiar ability by expanding the list. You are still using "this" ability, because "this" ability is what allows you to select a familiar.
The opening paragraph of Improved Familiar says:
When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
"Are also available to you." It's modifying the base ability, not replacing it.
I'm one that says Eldritch guardian doesn't qualify you for Improved familiar. Why? Cause it says "gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability." so you have effective wizard levels for your familiar and only your familiar.
What does the FEAT say it needs? Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
And what's below?
Arcane Spellcaster LevelDoes the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels? No.
Does the fighter have arcane spellcaster levels for feats? No.
Does the fighter's count as a wizard for feats? No.
Does the fighter have effective wizard levels for feats? No.
Is the Improved Familiar Feat your familiar ability? No.There's not a single rule that supports you getting improved familiars with an Eldritch Guardian.
EDIT: Now I know a lot of people feel that if you have a familiar you should be able to get the feat and rule that you can. That's fine, I'm not going to argue that they have to change their minds on this. But if I'm making the ruling, it needs some sort of support or else it's not going to fly. And I'm not aware of any Dev posts to explain RAI, so I go with RAW which I've posted above.
So you're suggesting something like this is rules as written/intended:
Half-Elf Fighter (Mutation Warrior)
Traits: Defender of the Society, Trustworthy
Skill Points: 2/lvl + 2/lvl (familiar)
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 13
1: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Some Knowledge)
2: Quillbreaker Defense
3: Mutagen, Eldritch Heritage(Arcane), Familiar (Thrush, Sage)
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Arcane Talent
6: Vital Strike
7: Improved Familiar (Pooka, Sage), Mutation Discovery (Wings)
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Improved Critical
10: Critical Focus
11: Mutation Discovery (Preserve Organs)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
Seems arbitrary.
No, eldritch heritage also doesn't work because again, a fighter isn't an arcane spellcasting class. So you don't have the arcane spellcasting levels needed for your improved familiar.
"You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2"
"you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object."
So since you don't have arcane spellcasting levels you wouldn't qualify for improved familiar.
A way to do it would be take eldritch guardian at lv1, and then take 7 levels of bloodrager, bard, summoner, magus, etc as a way to gain the 7 Arcane Spellcaster Levels needed for a pooka. Or be the new fighter archetype that gives you arcane spellcasting. Otherwise you'll never have the spellcasting to qualify.
EDIT:
Also having a SLA doesn't work either from the FAQ that says that SLA don't count as spellcasting for things that require spellcasting. It can only count as the specific spell it's a SLA of.
Related question:
How often do you find your characters being declared illegal due to table variation? On the forums, I see people talk about it a lot, but I don't know whether that's indicative of the gaming environment. How do you handle a dispute? Is it a good idea to keep at least two characters around the same level so that I'll have a backup in the event of a dispute?
Related question:
How often do you find your characters being declared illegal due to table variation? On the forums, I see people talk about it a lot, but I don't know whether that's indicative of the gaming environment. How do you handle a dispute? Is it a good idea to keep at least two characters around the same level so that I'll have a backup in the event of a dispute?
There was a thread on that a while ago about whether you could have schrodingers character or not.
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Human Fighter (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior)
Traits: Pragmatic Activator, Student of Philosophy
Skill Points: 5/lvl + 2/lvl (familiar)
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 11
Cha: 71: Weapon Focus, Fast Learner, Familiar (Thrush, Sage)
2: x
3: Power Attack, Mutagen
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Iron Will
6: Deadly Aim
7: Improved Familiar (Pooka, Sage), Mutation Discovery (Wings)
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Improved Critical
10: Critical Focus
11: Mutation Discovery (Preserve Organs)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
I have a few suggestions. If you go the Improved Familiar way and build a half-elf take Arcane Training. It has been amazing for me. There are a bunch of 1st level wizard spells that are amazing for you. Shield, Shield Companion, Swift Girding, Expeditious Retreat, Comprehend Langues, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Heighten Awareness etc. You can even get a wand of Mirror Image or Fridge Touch for spell storing armor if you like.
After Wings my favorite discovery is Spontaneous Healing. It provides healing and auto-stabilize which are both huge for a front liner.
You don't seem to be using advanced weapon training in your build so you may want to look at Martial Master as a third archetype. Being able to pick up feats on the fly can be huge. Dedicated Adversary is amazing for this. Out flank, gang up, precision damage are all helpful. Their is literally dozens of other great feats for you to pick up.