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Hey all, this is a series of questions I have about EoT while prepping. I can’t think of ~anything~ more spoilery than this, so I’m going to post this in spoiler tags even though we are in the GM forum:
Question A) Vital Strike is a single attack, yet the skallywags attack sing their Manyshot and Rapid Shot feats to re two +1 flaming burst arrows and two regular arrows at the PCs. The flaming burst arrows also bene t from the scallies’ Vital Strike feat, meaning their damage dice are rolled twice on a successful hit.“ We know that’s not how it’s supposed to work, but instead with vital strike, you use a full round action for a single attack, so would you suggest running it as written in the scenario or as as in the rulebook? If you run Vital Strike as the scenario suggests, how do you suggest reconciling with any player that asks why the extra damage (We’ve got some pretty astute players around here) I’m planning on just skipping the vital strike feat, and raining down arrows or just firing a single arrow per round with vital strike per round, or if I can't hit on round one, just vital striking once with the flaming strike arrow, per scallywag.
Question B) Skelg the Ripper uses a vicious weapon, but it doesn’t damage him due to DR/-. It is unclear if the damage from Vicious bypasses DR or not, There is a thread where this is bantered back and forth, but no FAQ or developer input: ( http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mzhs&page=2?Does-the-Vicious-Weapon-Enchan tments-damage ). How would you run this in EoT? I’m leaning toward following the scenario on this one as the core rules are ambiguous.
Question C) Chained allies of Kol Voss: The scenario states, “[monsters]... headed toward 3 large poles. Five men are chained to each pole by the wrists and they huddle together behind their meager prison” The map has 4 poles, are there 20 men or 15?
Question D) The Chained allies of Kol Voss are very susceptible to damage, and a campaign point rests on saving them [“The PCs rescue Kol Voss’s companions from the Crimson Forum (group award)”]. How many of the men have to survive for this success condition? There are quite a few area of effect things that could take out one or two of them, easily.
Question E) Chained allies of Kol Voss: Also, how long would you make their chains? The earthquake effect by the giant could engulf them if the chains are long enough to allow too much movement, but obviously they have enough movement to get to the far side of the poles.
Question F) Natalya has 2x uses of invisibility, and the stat-block claims that she “Natalya casts mage armor and invisibility on herself, and invisibility on her zombies.” but her stat block claims she just cast it only twice “invisibility (2, already cast)”. I’m tempted to just run as the scenario is intended, and just say she has 5 extra potions she used. They are rime zombie frost giant babies (medium sized young templated creepy things…), I can see her feeding them potions like baby bottles… ewe…
The foyer (yeah, that room…). We’ve got players with animal companions and familiars. The important part of the text reads, “Within the foyer, all occupants appear as medium-sized silhouettes without distinctions of body shape, gender, voice, or even wielded equipment. The PCs cannot recognize each other (including by voice), and the only way to find one another is by head count.”
Question G) I’m thinking that familiars and animal companions would suddenly also take a medium sized silhouette, without distinctions. If a halfling or gnome is turned to a medium sized silhouette, you would imagine that a large sized animal companion would suddenly be medium, also. How would having a Large creature that appears to take a medium square up work mechanically?
Question H) How would any creature without a mental bond (familiars) be able to take commands. The trick, “exclusive” would probably not work as the animal companion can not identify its master. Guard also becomes unwieldy as the creature doesn’t know who to guard. Unless of course, Scent works in this room. That is unclear, but I’m guessing not do to the obvious intention of the room an the statement, “only way to find one another is by head count”. How would you run animal companions and familiars in this room?
Question I) Also, finally, what is the big reveal in EoT? The way it was run for us, and from our preparations, there are really not that many secrets (besides maybe that Adril has gone ShadowLodgey, the Decemvirate have a way to travel around Golarion (duh), are not all nice people and they spy on Pathfinders at the top of the tower. Are we missing something? Everyone else in forum posts seems to say that it’s golarion-shattering, but we all assumed most of that (except Adril) already. The one exception, and this isn't in the scenario itself, is that when it was run for us, they heavily hinted that the Decemvirate used the wayfinders as the sensors for the scrying, and that is one of the key reasons they want Pathfinder Agents to carry them. (Most of the scrying scenes were viewed from the position and angle of wayfinders worn on agents necks or belt-loops) Is there anything we are really missing?
Thanks for any help you may be able to provide. Question involving the foyer room and the arena above are the ones that most concern me. Most of the others are smaller rules related, and I'll muddle through and still make it epic for the players.
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Rather than start another thread I thought it'd make sense to piggyback on yours.
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Have the martial NPCs ignore the impossible to hit Eidolon and attack other PCs. If the summoner dies it won't matter what the Eidolon's AC was.
A valid tactic with some knowledge arcana.
you can't magically disguise the rune, but nothing prevents you from arcane marking your entire party with the same insignia :)
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Hey all, this is a series of questions I have about EoT while prepping. I can’t think of ~anything~ more spoilery than this, so I’m going to post this in spoiler tags even though we are in the GM forum:
Advice time!
Answer to your specific questions below but the mantra for Eyes is "make it up." The players are going to do something unexpected. Whether it's taking (or not taking) something that is vital to the plot or attempting to dimension door to an area that bypass all the explanation or just doing something that completely invalidates all the tactics of the NPCs, it's going to happen. Don't be afraid to change things around to tell the story the best you can.
B) Go with the scenario text since it's ambiguous.
C) Make it 20 men total. At a guess the scenario was written before the flip-mat design was finalized.
D) I'd play this one by ear. If the party has been racking up all the points until now, I'd say all need to survive. If they have been having trouble make it a simple majority.
E) I'd give them each 10'. I think of it as a loop of chain around each pillar and then a 10' chain from that loop to each of the men.
F) Yeah, make them all invisible.
G) I would have them all take up a medium space. And spread them out a bit when they are portaled in. One of the funnier stories I've heard about the misadventures of this room was when a cavalier thought he had identified a shape as his horse and tried to mount up to ride around. Turned out to be someone else's tiny familiar, so it didn't work out so well for him.
H) That's going to be tricky. Clearly some kind of command works since Woltag can command his shadow. But they've been in there by themselves for a while. For simplicity's sake I'd say that animal companions don't recognize their master until the master activates an Eraminho Stone. So they can still be handled but not as a free action. (For extra fun, remember that Woltag has ranks in Handle Animal!) Animals with "exclusive" aren't going to respond at all until a Stone is activated.
I) There are three big shockers in Eyes:
1. Adril's Betrayal - this has kind of lost impact as time passes but up until the start of Eyes he had been the primary contact sending the PCs out on missions for at least a third of the scenarios. At the time it was cool but plausible to think you were going to see him be interviewed to become a Decimvirate member. Then someone murders him. Then you find out it was all a betrayal!
2. The identities of the Decimvirate - By the end of the adventure you will have discovered the identities of five of the ten members (though some may have been replaced since then).
3. Decimvirate members are very self serving - This one is the hardest to communicate to players but very rewarding. If they can find out the whole story behind the gem of life trapping (and how the Decimvirate keeps some very evil people around just for when they need some killing done) that's one thing. Spying on other Pathfinders is another. (I don't believe it's ever said anywhere that the wayfinders are the scrying sensors but it's come to be the accepted way to play it and makes a lot of sense.) Most players are very upset to find out that all the times they went hunting for a missing group of Pathfinders the only reason they didn't have more information was that the Decimvirate didn't feel like sharing their source.
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Rather than start another thread I thought it'd make sense to piggyback on yours.
Spoiler:For the player's part, the plot in part one doesn't make a ton of sense. How is Adril's assassination proof of his betryal? How are the items found in his room supposed to help players figure that out? The map/list of names won't mean anything to them for a while.
The players aren't going to figure it out immediately. If the plot unfolds as expected they will:
2. Gather to tell tales of Adril's wisdom and good leadership.
3. Be shocked and stunned when the notorious "Red Raven" appears and stabs him to death declaring him an "enemy of the Revolution!"
4. Search Adril's quarters and find various oddities.
5. Eliza and Osprey send the PCs into the maze. This is where it falls apart a bit. You may want to soften Eliza's "“A test,” Eliza says, "Adril Hestram appears to have failed” into something more like "A test which has been thrown into disarray. It appears there are other factions at play here, at least one of which believes him a traitor to their cause."
6. The PCs eventually gather more evidence against Adril either by speaking to the Red Raven or finding his notes on the assassination of Teppin Montrose.
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Has anyone ran this for a summoner with an optimized eidolon? I looked through all four parts and nothing can hit the AC 47 eidolon without rolling a natural 20. Should I just hand-wave any encounters that don't feature a bunch of archers and/or casters?
Don't hand-wave anything. This is a truly epic series and should have a great deal of danger and huge encounters.
This goes back to "know your players and what they are comfortable with" when it comes to how to handle the encounters. You might need to make some alterations to the setup to make it more challenging.
Eyes of the Ten has always been a set of scenarios that requires a lot of GM creativity and extemporizing. Because of its nature and high level most players are more willing to go along with a free-flowing adventure. I've never heard of anyone going off in a huff about "That's not fair I've had other GMs let me do that. It's just not fair!" (Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that I haven't heard about it.) I'm not saying to throw in an extra dozen bad guys, I'm saying that setting things up to be an exciting challenge instead of a by-the-numbers cakewalk is important.
So yes, there are builds that far outclass the enemies in the encounters. Also remember that the scenarios were written with the expectation of 4 players. I highly recommend limiting it to that many people.
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Have the martial NPCs ignore the impossible to hit Eidolon and attack other PCs. If the summoner dies it won't matter what the Eidolon's AC was.A valid tactic with some knowledge arcana.
you can't magically disguise the rune, but nothing prevents you from arcane marking your entire party with the same insignia :)
No knowledge check required. The nice thing about this arc, is the BBEG knows everything about these PCs, so can inform his minions to kill the summoner.
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As to the proof from Eliza and Osprey:
They don't need to reveal thier proof to the characters. Indeed the answer is, "Because you may be complicit, we can't reveal the whole case. Go out, find him, prove us wrong."
The tailspinning was not just a test of the BBEG, but also the seekers.
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For "5." when Eliza and Osprey are sending them out into the Maze, it's okay for them to be as confused as the PCs. It's a jarring break from omniscient (or pretending) venture captains - shows the PCs have really hit a different level of interaction.
The Foyer in Part IV can be very exciting, very dangerous, and/or very tedious. There's a whole thread discussing ways to run it - pick one and perfect it for your group - have no doubts about how *you* are going to run it.
As for "the big secrets" that's up to you - Eyes doesn't promise secrets inherently. I didn't run it as wayfinders are scrying tools either time, but there's still a *lot* of spying going on. I also adjusted the final encounter to have the NPC be a *bit* more aware, suspecting the PCs as well.
All the spying explains a lot of things, like the early spoilery faction missions. Speaking of faction missions - I highly suggest you play them up from Part I forward, even if they don't make the most sense for current faction issues. The importance at one point is often huge.
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No knowledge check required. The nice thing about this arc, is the BBEG knows everything about these PCs, so can inform his minions to kill the summoner.
But not all of the encounters feature minions of the BBEG. For example, the creatures inside the Maze of the Open Road.
As to the proof from Eliza and Osprey:
They don't need to reveal thier proof to the characters. Indeed the answer is, "Because you may be complicit, we can't reveal the whole case. Go out, find him, prove us wrong."
The tailspinning was not just a test of the BBEG, but also the seekers.
That would be fine but Eliza's box text makes no sense in this regard.
“A test,” Eliza says, “Adril Hestram appears to have failed.”
How is Adril getting murdered him 'failing' his test? This line suggests the VCs know more than they actually know (or even can know).
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** spoiler omitted **
I fully agree. The VCs should be as confused as the PCs at this point in the story but that's not the narrative the author spins. Does everyone just ignore the bits of text that make no sense in favor of something that does?
I normally wouldn't make a big deal about something like this but EotT was supposed to be a big deal. It didn't make any sense when I played it but I always figured that's because the DMs that ran it for me hadn't property prepped the scenarios. I want the plot to be as cohesive as possible for my players.
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No knowledge check required. The nice thing about this arc, is the BBEG knows everything about these PCs, so can inform his minions to kill the summoner.But not all of the encounters feature minions of the BBEG. For example, the creatures inside the Maze of the Open Road.
As to the proof from Eliza and Osprey:
They don't need to reveal thier proof to the characters. Indeed the answer is, "Because you may be complicit, we can't reveal the whole case. Go out, find him, prove us wrong."
The tailspinning was not just a test of the BBEG, but also the seekers.
That would be fine but Eliza's box text makes no sense in this regard.
** spoiler omitted **
I disagree. It made perfect sense to me when I played it, twice, and when I GM'd it twice.
2) Some seemingly random person steps in and slays Adril during his "test of loyalty". Her speculation is that he failed his test, because why would a good pathfinder be slain in the Woodsedge Lodge during his Tailspinning for no apparent (at the time) reason?
3) You don't need more sense than this out of it. Its a mystery. The 2nd half of Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 are all about the PCs investigating this mystery. You rarely see a mystery revealed all at once in the opening act.
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** spoiler omitted **I fully agree. The VCs should be as confused as the PCs at this point in the story but that's not the narrative the author spins. Does everyone just ignore the bits of text that make no sense in favor of something that does?
I normally wouldn't make a big deal about something like this but EotT was supposed to be a big deal. It didn't make any sense when I played it but I always figured that's because the DMs that ran it for me hadn't property prepped the scenarios. I want the plot to be as cohesive as possible for my players.
I didn't ignore anything. And it made sense. I think you are trying too hard to find plot holes that don't exist.
Some things just have to be understood as "off-screen".
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I'm glad it somehow made sense to you. As written, I can't wrap my head around it and others in this thread seem to have had the same problem. Others have also suggested making adjustments to the narrative so it makes more sense. I'm not looking for plot holes so much as trying to avoid stumbling into any more.
This is what the player's are told:
1) Adril is suspected of being a traitor for untold reasons.
2) Adril being murdered at his tailspinning is proof of that fact.
3) Being associates of his, you are suspect too.
Adril being murdered at his Talespinning is really weak proof of his guilt. Tons of PFS scenarios feature pathfinders that are missing/dead under mysterious circumstances. Should we assume that they're all traitors too.
The mystery doesn't stop being mysterious because the premise has some added reasoning to it.
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Being murdered at your Talespinning isn't proof of guilt of anything except for having enemies that want you dead. Suspicious, certainly, but not, as Eliza puts it, 'a failed test'.
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The issue Feral has is one of GM style and inflection. If you straight-out read the box text (right before going into the maze) - rather than paraphrasing or expanding on it - it can come across to the player as "we were testing him for loyalty. And he failed."
There's nothing else in the box text, in anything Eliza or Osprey say, or in anything you have found (unless you managed to capture the Raven) to say why being killed unexpectedly by a revolutionary is grounds for failing a loyalty test. Does that mean the Red Raven is some kind of tool of the Decimvirate? No, but neither the PCs or Eliza and Osprey know much about the Red Raven one way or the other. So why does Eliza say that getting killed is cause for failing the test?
So paraphrase the wording somewhat and soften that one sentence so it doesn't come across as "now we have proof he was a traitor since this stranger just killed him!" Suspicious, yes. Just not "proven."
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The point is, it doesn't need to make forensic sense.
The thing is that this isn't passive entertainment like TV or a movie where you will see if all make sense in the end. It's interactive. The players perceptions drive their actions which drive the narrative. I'm sure you've seen this before Andrew, sometimes players get stuck on the wrong detail in a scenario. Niggling at that one thing that doesn't sit right. "That statement makes no sense based on what we know. If Eliza knows that he failed then she MUST be in league with this Red Raven!" And hours of planning, counterplanning and taking actions that will fit into a narrative that "makes sense" ensue.
I almost quit Pathfinder after my first non-convention experience. We (the whole party) got stuck on the wrong detail in Frozen Fingers. We spent literally hours trying to figure out what was so special about a tapestry that wasn't that special after all. I realized later this was largely due to antagonistic GMing (I don't play at his tables any more) but it is still frustrating 5 years later to think about how little we got out of that scenario due to our wrong fixation.
Feral is just looking for a way to keep players from falling into that trap without having to break the immersion and say "you're looking at this the wrong way, guys."
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Does she trust the PCs, or does she want the PCs to believe she trusts them? There's an important difference. ;)Are they being tested, or do they want to PCs to believe they are being tested? :P
Does the Red Raven's attack somehow provide them with proof of Adril Hestram's treachery, or do they just want the PCs to believe that it does (so that they can use the PCs to investigate Hestram's treachery)? ;)
I guess the point is that the character's role in the plot is important. You're not reading a novel where the author reveals everything to you. You're a character in the story - you don't have all the information, you're not always told the truth, you may not even be on the side of the good guys some of the time!
Fortunately in the case of my recently-promoted venture-captain PC, Hestram had no way to deal with his target being teleported 40ft into the air and then shielded in a hemisphere of force. =D
Just because you are not given all the information required to make sense of a situation doesn't mean there's a plot hole. It just means, well, your character is experiencing something that happens quite often in real life.
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The point is, it doesn't need to make forensic sense.The thing is that this isn't passive entertainment like TV or a movie where you will see if all make sense in the end. It's interactive. The players perceptions drive their actions which drive the narrative. I'm sure you've seen this before Andrew, sometimes players get stuck on the wrong detail in a scenario. Niggling at that one thing that doesn't sit right. "That statement makes no sense based on what we know. If Eliza knows that he failed then she MUST be in league with this Red Raven!" And hours of planning, counterplanning and taking actions that will fit into a narrative that "makes sense" ensue.
I almost quit Pathfinder after my first non-convention experience. We (the whole party) got stuck on the wrong detail in Frozen Fingers. We spent literally hours trying to figure out what was so special about a tapestry that wasn't that special after all. I realized later this was largely due to antagonistic GMing (I don't play at his tables any more) but it is still frustrating 5 years later to think about how little we got out of that scenario due to our wrong fixation.
Feral is just looking for a way to keep players from falling into that trap without having to break the immersion and say "you're looking at this the wrong way, guys."
Ok sure. And you, I, and others have explained ways to deal with it should that perception persist.
So why keep harping in it?
I have over 150 hours of experience with this arc. And have yet to see this be an issue. And the story isn't really a sandbox, so there isn't room to go to far off the rails. They are literally given a mission. If they refuse to go on it, then the story is over.
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So, thoughts on this having had it run for me and as I've prepped it to run for another group:
1) On Adril & Eliza
When I played it, my party wasn't really sure WHO to trust (Adril, Eliza & Osprey, ????) until the end of Part 1. And even then, we weren't cemented in that until the end of Pt. 2. And we did a lot of snooping, our GM (who did a great job!) did some extra role-play as appropriate without giving everything away on a meta level. We knew something was going on, we weren't be told the whole truth by anyone, and that was OK.
Sometimes, the party needs to sit in the uncomfortable place to feel a need to move the story forward. Don't be afraid to remind them (or have a NPC they do trust remind them) that part of being a Pathfinder is knowing you won't have all the answers, but you can do your damnedest to try to find them.
2) On the Big Reveal in Pt. IV
So I had a bit of a different take away from the endgame reveal:
The Decimvirate has the power to make sweeping, decisive changes in Golarion with this kind level of intelligence gathering. They instead use it to nudge events via their field agents towards outcomes that benefit the society and, usually, the world as a whole. But they aren't afraid of letting other, lesser evils play out. This includes letting teams of Pathfinders die. At least one person is fairly unhappy with that (Torch). They do this because acting boldly on every piece of information they can gather tips their hand. Other intelligence gathering organizations would realize the Society has a very powerful form of divination. Sooner or later a government or organization powerful enough to take them down would try to take this device from them. And some of those groups, such as Cheliax or The Aspis Consortium, could bring ruin to the Inner Sea if they seized it.
If you've seen The Imitation Game, there is a very great example of this kind of situation in the plot. I recommend watching it.
Characters, especially those with alignments towards specific codes of morality, may be very conflicted about working for the Decemvirate after learning all of this. Sure, your Grand Lodge folks (which didn't exist back when this was written) may shrug and move on. But your good aligned folks? Your Silver Crusaders? Exchange members? Liberty's Edge? They are going to likely have some issues with it.
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Our run through was great, and at the end of part 1 we weren't sure who to trust. Though we generally liked Adril something was up. We went on mostly to prove ourselves innocent and find out what was going on. A take on why Eliza's now sure, is that the venerable Red Raven coming in to kill Adril means Adril has been up to something particularly heinous to draw his attention away from the revolution in Galt.
As for part 4, there was definitely a break taken where the players discussed out of character (then a discussion in character) whether or not to turn on the Decemvirate and join Adril. Ended up deciding not to as they wanted the characters to remain alive and active pathfinders. Some of the players are talking about writing a campaign of what would have happened had they switched sides at that point.
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@TOZ So was I.
Torch was right!
But not very sincere about his motives.
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All of this discussion brings me to another question. Why does Adril actually think killing 5 of the Decemvirate will somehow let him take over the Society? There are still 5 more. Is his (unstated) plan to have almost a majority if he and 4 associates replace them secretly? Wouldn't replacing 6 be a more sensible number? And if so, how is that the other 5 will not notice that their inner sanctum has been breached? Surely Shemis has shared the assault on Skyreach with the other members, as she must have known the assault is coming.
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I though that his plan required that he could get his cronies up to the Ten as well. Which means that there's some high-ranking Pathfinders who were Shadow Lodge that were never caught.
How would that work?
The ten six know he;s a traitor. Anyone that votes for him is going to be outed as a traitor and fired one way or another. He has to have some existing support with them or it wouldn't work- kind of like taking out supreme court justices till you get the ruling you want. You at least need SOMEONE that agrees with you.
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Another question: Skelg's stat block states he is immune to unconscious conditions. Does this refer to all of his unconscious related rage powers (which don't make him immune), or is something "extra" for him.
He has Guarded Life (Converts dmg to non-lethal when below 0) and Raging Vitality (Rage doesn't end when unconscious).
As I read it, if he is really immune, that means that when he is under 0 hitpoints, Guarded Life is going to be a pain, basically giving him something approximating DR 15 on top of his normal DR until they eat through all his non-lethal hit points or manage to do enough lethal to finally drop him.
My questions are: Does he really have immunity to unconsciousness and how did he get it? If he has it, does it work the way I'm thinking? We are running for a party of 6 modern characters with all the new splatbook tricks, so I'm inclined to leave this interesting immunity in place.
