Remember that Pathfinder Society Chronicles are an in game publication as well as the goody sheet you get at the end of the adventure. Most libraries of the Inner Sea, such as the one the bookish, adventure adverse scholar hangs out in, will have a subscription.
The lessons learned by other Pathfinders are available for all without metagaming. As they say, anyone can learn from their mistakes, genius is learning from the mistakes of others.
"No. Wait, can I change my answer?" (from 2:56)
:)
-j
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Actually, yes the PFS trying to recruit the players IS part of the written wrap up for the module. When I ran the module for my lodge I ignored it. But then everyone had 3 or so chronicles already (and things had gone seriously south twice). So I ran the module as a venture captain sending the players on what should be an easy milk run at behest of the village's elders, since the last few assignments the players had gotten got unexpectedly dangerous. Thus it was intended as a working vacation.
I don't have access to the module this instant but is that PFS ending actually in the module or tacked on for PFS?At any rate, its a classic example of what would NOT happen in the organization as described in the various books. Getting a field commission is supposed to be exceedingly rare and very, very few of those getting one would be 1st or 2nd level. Characters surviving Crypt really shouldn't be enough (yes, played and run it).
Do remember though that recruiting =/= giving a field commission. I would expect such recruitment to include the standard lecture series and training before gaining a proper commission.
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Why? The party already proved they can handle the unexpected and have defeated an impressive (if minor in the long run) threat. And the pathfinder society doesn't send newbies out on the most dangerous assignments. While one generally assumes all agents have undergone a Confirmation, this may not always be true. In fact for PFS Organized Play it may be better to assume that if you don't have that particular chronicle in your stack, you may not have undergone a confirmation for one reason or another.
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At least I still have the wooden back-up until I kill the target.
And that is precisely the point.
It doesn't really matter how likely it is you'll need it, the cost of having some things is (usually) so hideously low that you'd be crazy to not have them
Dagger, backup spell component pouch, backup holy symbol, SOME ranged weapon, etc.
Now, if having that puts you from light to medium encumbrance, or wrecks your disguise, or has some other concrete cost then maybe its not worth it. But the 1 gp for a dagger just in case you get lipstitched, the 1 gp for an extra holy symbol in case you run into the telekinetic demon or REALLY good thief is essentially free insurance.
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And that is precisely the point.
It doesn't really matter how likely it is you'll need it, the cost of having some things is (usually) so hideously low that you'd be crazy to not have them
Not all characters are built to be that pragmatic. Let's all try to remember that there is more than one way to play the game. You can certainly make a case that many of the characters in circulation do not fit the society thematically and probably would not have been recruited nor accepted into the Society training program. However, the reality is that is not how the game mechanics are presented. When you attempt to allow the widest possible range of options for players, you have to accept that sometimes unintended character concepts will be generated. Yes, players should be cautious of creating characters that are too specialized. Being very good at something is always going to be an asset to the party, but if it comes at the cost of being completely useless the rest of the time, you might need to reconsider the build. I like to say "just because you CAN do something, does not mean you SHOULD." Of course, where that line is between "good" characters and "bad" characters is certainly arbitrary and will vary greatly. Let's not get into an argument over someone's specific character being "BadWrongFun." Try to keep this discussion about the theory-crafting of characters rather than attacks on a specific character/player.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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With Kahel I don't actually have a weapon. I'm the very definition of a "one trick pony", right? I toss electric blasts. That's it. Oh, and diplomacy. But mostly it's tossing electric blasts.
My answer to swarms? Toss electrical blast.
Answer to ranged combat? Toss electrical blast.
Answer to someone getting in my face with a big honking sword? Form sabre made of pure electricity and try to gut the enemy with it.
Enemy further then 30 feet away? Toss electrical blast (with greater range).
Just got tossed off a cliff by an enemy? Toss electrical blast (while gently floating down to the ground).
Enemy is actually the city guard (such as hell knights in Chelex)? Try to talk myself out of trouble before a fight breaks out.
Buy more swords... Or a Blinkback Belt.But then he wouldn't have 2 longswords to fight with when he closed to melee range...I have a guy in the runelords game I'm running. He's a 2 weapon fighter (focusing on longsword) with a 15 str and 15 dex. He has weapon focus longsword, so instead of fighting with a longsword and a shortsword giving him a +2/+1 to hit he's using two longswords so he has a +0/+0 to hit, oh and he doesn't have a ranged weapons because it's not a longsword...What about thrown long sword?
Or add the Sharding special ability to one of the swords.
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"One-Trick ponies" also apply to those persons who only consider "combat" as the answer to all situations. Sure you can slice and dice with the best of them. Shot holes into solid stone, and sling AOE damage in all four energy types...
But can you dance?
Can you hide/sneak?
Can you ask (nicely!) where they locals keep their dead?
Can you calm a small child?
But can you dance? +13 no ranks
Can you hide/sneak? Invisibility
Can you ask (nicely!) where they locals keep their dead? Dominate person
Can you calm a small child? Dominate person
*evil grin*
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This is undoubtedly my most one-trick pony build. That said it's a pretty versatile trick.
In combat - shoot arrows, vs. flying shoot arrows, something in melee shoot arrows (point-blank master), swarms shoot arrows, etc.
Out of combat - he's got a couple of skills he's really good at Perception and Survival, and a few he can help with.
He's designed to be a radar unit and combatant. He's also really effective at those things. Were there struggles in his career were he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, yes. Did he have a lot of back-up plans, not really. Sometimes you count on your party. That said he fulfilled what I wanted from him.
Dance, no.
Sneak - actually yes, though he wouldn't think to do so.
Ask nicely? Sure, but it's gonna fail
Calm a kid? I could try.
Keep my party safe when *&%$ hit the fan? Yes
Let other people shine, and really step it up when needed - yes
Spot the problems coming - yes.
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When your one trick is really versatile and covers a wide range of situations, is being a one trick pony really that bad?
No, but I also worked on making that one trick versatile. Weapon Blanches for DR. Point-Blank Master for when I couldn't get away or needed to front-line (my AC has been 29 or 30 since level 7 or so). Slippers of Spider Climb to get clean sight lines. Swarmbane Clasp to fight swarms. A backup weapon just in case. Investment in saves and Ioun stones to not kill my party. Grappling arrows and silk rope to help others climb. Just because you have one trick that's effective doesn't mean you don't need to make it work more or have a backup plan.
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With Kahel I don't actually have a weapon. I'm the very definition of a "one trick pony", right? I toss electric blasts. That's it. Oh, and diplomacy. But mostly it's tossing electric blasts.
My answer to swarms? Toss electrical blast.
Answer to ranged combat? Toss electrical blast.
Answer to someone getting in my face with a big honking sword? Form sabre made of pure electricity and try to gut the enemy with it.
Enemy further then 30 feet away? Toss electrical blast (with greater range).
Just got tossed off a cliff by an enemy? Toss electrical blast (while gently floating down to the ground).
Enemy is actually the city guard (such as hell knights in Chelex)? Try to talk myself out of trouble before a fight breaks out.
When the enemy is immune to electricity?
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Or use elemental metamagic.
Then you don't just have one trick. Which is the point of the thread. There's nothing wrong with building a fire based blaster or electricity based blaster or trip build or any other specialist, as long as you have some kind of fallback option when your specialty fails. Kahel is presenting his character as though there's no need. Elemental Metamagic is great... Provided you actually have access to it when you need it.
Also, it doesn't solve constructs. Turning a scorching ray into an acid ray doesn't turn it into a conjuration spell. It's still subject to SR, so things that are immune to magic will be immune to it.
EDIT: I'm not familiar enough with Kineticists to know if their blasts are affected by SR. Though in concept I could see them not being. But then as andreww points out, Elemental Metamagic apparently can't change them either.
Most people on this thread can come up with a situation where a particular trick won't help. And they can come up with a solution. The problem comes in when someone is insisting that there's no situation where their trick won't work, and they refuse to prepare for when they inevitably run into the situation where it doesn't.
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When your one trick is really versatile and covers a wide range of situations, is being a one trick pony really that bad?
Yes.
Obviously, the more versatile the trick the better. But no trick is perfect. If it was you wouldn't be a one trick pony :-). Your character still needs some way of contributing in the cases where your trick doesn't work.
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I did read up on Kineticists, and Elemental Blast is a spell-like ability. Which means it's subject to SR, and the blast and kinetic blade are both useless against a construct with immunity to magic. Now, Kineticists does have the built in option to take a second element (at 7th level), but apparently that's just an option and you can choose instead to boost the one you have farther? Which I could see a lot of Kineticists doing. There are probably ways to take a second kinetic blast earlier, so something like the air blast, which would at least help against creatures with elemental resistance, might be useful.
I've encountered lightning elementals in more than one scenario at not that high of a level (tier 5-6, I think), and constructs can show up lower than that. Now, a non-Melee character having a dagger isn't going to penetrate an elemental or a construct's DR anyway, so as long as kinetic blade still threatens (I think it does), it would be just as useful to at least provide a flank or aid another. So that's something.
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I did read up on Kineticists, and Elemental Blast is a spell-like ability. Which means it's subject to SR, and the blast and kinetic blade are both useless against a construct with immunity to magic. Now, Kineticists does have the built in option to take a second element (at 7th level), but apparently that's just an option and you can choose instead to boost the one you have farther? Which I could see a lot of Kineticists doing. There are probably ways to take a second kinetic blast earlier, so something like the air blast, which would at least help against creatures with elemental resistance, might be useful.
I've encountered lightning elementals in more than one scenario at not that high of a level (tier 5-6, I think), and constructs can show up lower than that. Now, a non-Melee character having a dagger isn't going to penetrate an elemental or a construct's DR anyway, so as long as kinetic blade still threatens (I think it does), it would be just as useful to at least provide a flank or aid another. So that's something.
Just to note, only energy blasts are subject to SR. Physcial Blasts ignore SR and are fully capable of harming golems.
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I did read up on Kineticists, and Elemental Blast is a spell-like ability. Which means it's subject to SR, and the blast and kinetic blade are both useless against a construct with immunity to magic. Now, Kineticists does have the built in option to take a second element (at 7th level), but apparently that's just an option and you can choose instead to boost the one you have farther? Which I could see a lot of Kineticists doing. There are probably ways to take a second kinetic blast earlier, so something like the air blast, which would at least help against creatures with elemental resistance, might be useful.
I've encountered lightning elementals in more than one scenario at not that high of a level (tier 5-6, I think), and constructs can show up lower than that. Now, a non-Melee character having a dagger isn't going to penetrate an elemental or a construct's DR anyway, so as long as kinetic blade still threatens (I think it does), it would be just as useful to at least provide a flank or aid another. So that's something.
Kinetic Blade does not threaten. You need the Ever-Present Threat ability from Elemental Annihilator for that. KB disappears at the end of your turn.
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Kinetic Blade does not threaten. You need the Ever-Present Threat ability from Elemental Annihilator for that. KB disappears at the end of your turn.I did read up on Kineticists, and Elemental Blast is a spell-like ability. Which means it's subject to SR, and the blast and kinetic blade are both useless against a construct with immunity to magic. Now, Kineticists does have the built in option to take a second element (at 7th level), but apparently that's just an option and you can choose instead to boost the one you have farther? Which I could see a lot of Kineticists doing. There are probably ways to take a second kinetic blast earlier, so something like the air blast, which would at least help against creatures with elemental resistance, might be useful.
I've encountered lightning elementals in more than one scenario at not that high of a level (tier 5-6, I think), and constructs can show up lower than that. Now, a non-Melee character having a dagger isn't going to penetrate an elemental or a construct's DR anyway, so as long as kinetic blade still threatens (I think it does), it would be just as useful to at least provide a flank or aid another. So that's something.
Kinetic Blade Does threaten, but it only lasts to the end of your turn, so you can only take AoOs with it during your turn (greater trip or similar). Kinetic Whip threatens and last until your next turn, so you can make full AoOs off-turn with it.
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Just to note, only energy blasts are subject to SR. Physcial Blasts ignore SR and are fully capable of harming golems.
Citation? I'm not saying I think you're wrong. I just want to understand how it works. I don't see anything under Spell Resistance to say it wouldn't apply, and my understanding of immunity to magic is that it applies whenever Spell Resistance does. Is there something in the Kineticist class that calls that out?
That would still require him to take a second blast (Air blast does physical damage), so it means diversifying abilities a little.
I know that in general, spells that cause physical damage are conjuration spells and don't allow spell resistance, but that doesn't mean a spell-like ability gains those qualities if it isn't based directly on a spell.
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Just to note, only energy blasts are subject to SR. Physcial Blasts ignore SR and are fully capable of harming golems.Citation? I'm not saying I think you're wrong. I just want to understand how it works. I don't see anything under Spell Resistance to say it wouldn't apply, and my understanding of immunity to magic is that it applies whenever Spell Resistance does. Is there something in the Kineticist class that calls that out?
That would still require him to take a second blast (Air blast does physical damage), so it means diversifying abilities a little.
I know that in general, spells that cause physical damage are conjuration spells and don't allow spell resistance, but that doesn't mean a spell-like ability gains those qualities if it isn't based directly on a spell.
It's under the entry for Kinetic Blasts:
A kineticist gains a simple blast from her primary element at 1st level—some elements offer more than one option. When a kineticist gains a new element via the expanded element class feature, she gains a simple blast from that element as well. Each simple blast is either a physical blast or an energy blast. Physical blasts are ranged attacks that deal an amount of damage equal to 1d6+1 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st. Spell resistance doesn't apply against physical blasts. Energy blasts are ranged touch attacks that deal an amount of damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st.
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Just to note, only energy blasts are subject to SR. Physcial Blasts ignore SR and are fully capable of harming golems.Sure, but then you are targeting full AC and losing 10-15 of your damage to DR unless you have the rare metal infusion.
Yes, but a well built kineticist should have no problem hitting normal AC. They don't have to worry about iterative attacks, so they only need to worry about the standard attack. 3/4 BAB + weapon focus elemental overflow giving a flat to hit bonus and an attribute bonus means you'll hit just fine.
And while DR is an issue, you have large base damage to power through it, even if you don't have rare metal infusion.
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Just to note, only energy blasts are subject to SR. Physcial Blasts ignore SR and are fully capable of harming golems.Sure, but then you are targeting full AC and losing 10-15 of your damage to DR unless you have the rare metal infusion.
I was thinking that might be a problem, too, but it looks like they do enough damage that after 4th level or so, they can just power through DR like someone with Power Attack would. The damage would be reduced, sure, but they'd still be doing something.
Someone who focuses all of their build into an electric blast (or fire, or any of the energy blasts) could still be shut down almost completely by the right immunity, so even with as versatile as the abilities are, it's probably wise to at least devote some of the build toward having a backup option. Whether that's another type of blast or a weapon or whatever.
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When the enemy is immune to electricity?With Kahel I don't actually have a weapon. I'm the very definition of a "one trick pony", right? I toss electric blasts. That's it. Oh, and diplomacy. But mostly it's tossing electric blasts.
My answer to swarms? Toss electrical blast.
Answer to ranged combat? Toss electrical blast.
Answer to someone getting in my face with a big honking sword? Form sabre made of pure electricity and try to gut the enemy with it.
Enemy further then 30 feet away? Toss electrical blast (with greater range).
Just got tossed off a cliff by an enemy? Toss electrical blast (while gently floating down to the ground).
Enemy is actually the city guard (such as hell knights in Chelex)? Try to talk myself out of trouble before a fight breaks out.
No real options for that, yet since Kahel is currently level 3. At 7 though I'm picking up Expanded Element: Water. Then the 2nd expanded element will be Air. You know, to tie in with the name "Stormbender"
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Or use elemental metamagic.EDIT: I'm not familiar enough with Kineticists to know if their blasts are affected by SR. Though in concept I could see them not being. But then as andreww points out, Elemental Metamagic apparently can't change them either.
Most people on this thread can come up with a situation where a particular trick won't help. And they can come up with a solution. The problem comes in when someone is insisting that there's no situation where their trick won't work, and they refuse to prepare for when they inevitably run into the situation where it doesn't.
It depends on the blast. Energy blasts like Electricity, Fire, and Cold are touch attacks, receive half your attribute modifier for damage, and are subject to SR. Physical blasts like Air, Water, and Earth deal bludgeoning damage, hit normal AR, receive your full attribute modifier in damage, and are not subject to SR.
As a kineticist levels they get to select a new element twice, the first time at level 7. Until then however they are limited to JUST the one blast and it's damage type. Expanded Element can be used to fill in holes in your offensive abilities. Such as how I'll be taking Expanded Element: Water at level 7 and the Water blast. This will give me a bludgeoning attack, and a composite blast which does effectively double damage, half as electricity and half as bludgeoning.
Until level 7 though, a kineticist can be very much a case of "all eggs in one basket". Fortunately, you're less likely to encounter things immune to electricity at low levels then you are things immune to fire or resistant to bludgeoning.
That, and Electric blasts can have some nifty tricks added onto them. Such as chaining from enemy to enemy.
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Until level 7 though, a kineticist can be very much a case of "all eggs in one basket". Fortunately, you're less likely to encounter things immune to electricity at low levels then you are things immune to fire or resistant to bludgeoning.
While this is mostly true, Demons are immune to electricity, all the way down to the lowly Quasit. Guess what you fight a lot of in season 6?
EDIT: Season 5, not six.
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Now, Kineticists does have the built in option to take a second element (at 7th level), but apparently that's just an option and you can choose instead to boost the one you have farther?
True, but many elements have a couple options of what type of simple blast they can chose. Air can chose Electric or Air blast. Water can chose Cold or Water, for example. And depending on what element you originally chose, your versatility can skyrocket.
There are probably ways to take a second kinetic blast earlier, so something like the air blast, which would at least help against creatures with elemental resistance, might be useful.
Not so much, no. You can Retrain your blast type, but you can't get a second blast until level 7. And if you chose Expanded Element of the same element you originally picked, then if that element didn't have two different blast options you're stuck with just one simple blast and the stronger composite blast.
I've encountered lightning elementals in more than one scenario at not that high of a level (tier 5-6, I think), and constructs can show up lower than that. Now, a non-Melee character having a dagger isn't going to penetrate an elemental or a construct's DR anyway, so as long as kinetic blade still threatens (I think it does), it would be just as useful to at least provide a flank or aid another. So that's something.
The solution to elementals is Draining Infusion.
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While this is mostly true, Demons are immune to electricity, all the way down to the lowly Quasit. Guess what you fight a lot of in season 6?
Until level 7 though, a kineticist can be very much a case of "all eggs in one basket". Fortunately, you're less likely to encounter things immune to electricity at low levels then you are things immune to fire or resistant to bludgeoning.
Possibly true. Haven't done many season 6 scenarios. I think. Or read the ones I just got from the Humble Bundle.
And I'm not denying that kineticists can be SOL when they encounter the wrong type of enemy. Made a pyrokineticist for a Serpent Skull campaign. Was completely useless in one encounter cause we were fighting something immune to fire.
Hydrokineticists though would have some nice options for if they're element is useless damage wize. Entangling barriers, 1 round duration Grease, healing, and other nifty tools.
EDIT: I did take Thundering Infusion for those times when I encounter something immune to electric damage. Sure the electric bolt didn't hurt the enemy, but the thunderclap might have deafened them.
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Immunity, energy resistance, and spell resistance are why most Kineticists (or at least most in my immediate area, including mine) pick up a physical blast first.
As touch ACs go down the higher enemy CRs go up, picking up an energy blast at 7th level is the smarter tactic.
Unless you're a Fire Kineticist, which doesn't have a choice.
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Eventually, it wont be. But as a overwhelming soul I can't use any utility talent with a burn cost. Thus limiting my options greatly. These options will be back on the table later when I (eventually) do a retraining to remove that archtype. But said retraining isn't worth it till I can boost my Con up some. My current Con is 12 after all. That means I need to get a +con belt, and start putting attribute points into it.
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When one's build has the options of "launch electrical blast", "launch electrical blast with greater range", "use electrical blast to make a melee weapon" and "fall slowly due to constant feather fall"... Is that not a one trick pony?
Forgot that I'm getting Thundering Infusion at level 5. I'd had it at level 1, but did my level 1 rebuild originally to add an archtype which I now regret, change blast from electric to air, and change thundering infusion to kinetic blade. Only retrained back to electric blast last session I played Kahel during.
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Kineticists in combat are one trick ponies.
Outside of combat, they can be quite diverse.
But that's not the player's fault. That's the class's design.
I disagree. If players choose to build a class that is prone to one tricks and min/max that one trick. Then they choose to be one trick. No matter how one trick a class is designed to be there are always to get other uses out of them.
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I disagree. If players choose to build a class that is prone to one tricks and min/max that one trick.
Its kind of built into the system for a lot of classes. If you're an archer there's feats you almost have to have, if you want a cornugun smash build most of your feats are spoken for. Its not like a spellcaster where you can be reasonably good at a lot of things with just a high spellcasting stat.
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I disagree. If players choose to build a class that is prone to one tricks and min/max that one trick.
Its kind of built into the system for a lot of classes. If you're an archer there's feats you almost have to have, if you want a cornugun smash build most of your feats are spoken for. Its not like a spellcaster where you can be reasonably good at a lot of things with just a high spellcasting stat.
I understand a lot of resources are needed for certain things. But choosing to have the 7,16,20,7,14,7 Kinesist means you are are choosing that stat array.
No matter how demanding the class is, you can always find ways to get skills and abilities besides.
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First three sessions of PFS for me, my lodge didn't really have an effective face. So I used my level 1 rebuild to make my kineticist a face. That meant switching attributes around to favor Charisma more then Constitution and taking the Overwhelming Soul archtype so this didn't penalize my damage and ability DCs.
Problem, as an aerokinetic I'm not as versatile as an aetherkinetic or hydrokinetic. Can get some nifty combat wild talents though, and some useful to down right awesome utility talents such as flight and weather control. Overwhelming souls can't accept burn though, which cuts out many utility talents. Even if hydrokinetic for example an overwhelming soul can't use kinetic healing. Nor can they boost their elemental defense beyond it's base values. And the elemental adaptation wild talents are pretty much wasted time.
I regret taking that archtype now. But it's kind of too late. And while I can retrain out of it, it's not worth doing till I can buy a +con belt. Which will take a couple sessions, at least. First big purchase was a +1 mithral chain shirt. Next one was a handy havarsack since my strength is 6 :(
And trust me, I know all about how versatile kineticists can be. Was playing a hydrokinetic in one campaign. Ran a pyrokinetic before that. And have done a lot of tinkering.
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I've always liked decks of many things. Not that you dare pull cards from one very often. If at all.
Once in a game I'd misidentified a magic deck of cards. I THOUGHT it was a deck of many things. It turned out to be a deck of illusions (all farm animals). Made for an amusing encounter when I panicked and drew ALL the cards at once.