Note how most utility talents are the equivalent of spells of lower level? Basically what a kinny can do at level eight, a bard or inquisitor can do at level four. That's problematic.Example? I'm not thinking of anything.Spray = Flurry of Snowballs, Toxic Infusion = Cloud of Seasickness, Shape Wood = Woodshape. Basically, pretty much every 4th level talent is the equivalent of a 2nd level spell.
I dunno. You can get two elements by level 7. That grants a pretty big cross-section of the good talents if that's what you're aiming for.No, because your second element has a -4 level penalty. Oh, and you get one less talent for daring to pick a second element, which further reduces your versatility.
I have some more examples: Waterdancer = Slipstream, except the Kineticist gets it 2 levels after the druid. Stone Sculptor = Stone Shape, except the Kineticist gets it 3 levels after the druid. That's the problem, if the Kineticist is the elemental master, then it should be getting these powers before or at the same time as the druid, not a few levels later. That's literally the Kineticist's whole purpose, while the druid can do a thousand other things AND be better at controlling the elements. Bad design.
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I have some more examples: Waterdancer = Slipstream, except the Kineticist gets it 2 levels after the druid. Stone Sculptor = Stone Shape, except the Kineticist gets it 3 levels after the druid. That's the problem, if the Kineticist is the elemental master, then it should be getting these powers before or at the same time as the druid, not a few levels later. That's literally the Kineticist's whole purpose, while the druid can do a thousand other things AND be better at controlling the elements. Bad design.
Yep. It's not like Slipstream or Cloud of Seasickness are somehow overpowered for their level.
Turns out a number of fifth level talents are also the equivalent of second level spells (meaning you get them six levels later than a partial caster would); most of the rest are third level spells (you only get them three levels after the rest of the party, or five levels after a primary caster). For example, Chilling infusion = Frigid Touch; Grappling infusion = Web; Greater Eyes of the Void = Darkvision; Shimmering Mirage = Blur; Greater Woodland Step = Forest Friend.
Perhaps you were using it wrong.
That's pretty ironic :)
I think it is one of the more balanced classes made. It just needs more 1st party material (as Jolly is so eager to point out)...it got a little in the recent Player Companion Magic Tactics Toolbox.
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I think it is one of the more balanced classes made. It just needs more 1st party material (as Jolly is so eager to point out)...
I'm not sure how you define "balanced", but to me, a class that's clearly weaker than most other classes printed (including all other classes from the book it's in) doesn't strike me as "balanced".
But yes, it needs more material. I think we can all agree on that.
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I think it is one of the more balanced classes made. It just needs more 1st party material (as Jolly is so eager to point out)...it got a little in the recent Player Companion Magic Tactics Toolbox.
I'm eager to point it out because we just received a hardcover that had only 5 new talents for the class, and it felt pretty obvious that this was a popular class and needed expansion. Hell, even Mark S. has taken note of the sales of 3p products for it, as was discussed in my guide thread.
Although yeah, I did see that we received at least a new feat, although I haven't seen if there's any other goodies for it which I can add to my guide.
Also Derek, have you read my kineticist guide? And if so, did it give you the impression that you could use the kinetic blast as a full attack? I'm wondering because I would like to clarify the language in it to make sure that a problem like this doesn't come up again.
I think it is one of the more balanced classes made. It just needs more 1st party material (as Jolly is so eager to point out)...I'm not sure how you define "balanced", but to me, a class that's clearly weaker than most other classes printed (including all other classes from the book it's in) doesn't strike me as "balanced".
But yes, it needs more material. I think we can all agree on that.
That's strange, since I consider the Occultist and Medium(Poor, poor, situational Medium...) weaker by far. I'm playing to Pyrokinitecists in different games and, so far, I've never been unable to hold my own except for one fight where I fought a Fire resistant creature and didn't have a back up weapon.
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Holy crap the Havocker witch in Magic Tactics Toolbox looks fun for someone who wants kinetic blasts but doesn't like burn. In exchange for your patron and hexes, you gain a elemental focus and kinetic blast, and you gain infusions as you level up. You can't accept burn but you can power infusions by sacrificing spell slots.
Your blast will be weaker than a kineticist because you are still 1/2 BAB and you don't get elemental overflow, metakinesis or composite blasts, but you still have 9th level spells.
Holy crap the Havocker witch in Magic Tactics Toolbox looks fun for someone who wants kinetic blasts but doesn't like burn. In exchange for your patron and hexes, you gain a elemental focus and kinetic blast, and you gain infusions as you level up. You can't accept burn but you can power infusions by sacrificing spell slots.
Your blast will be weaker than a kineticist because you are still 1/2 BAB and you don't get elemental overflow, metakinesis or composite blasts, but you still have 9th level spells.
That's interesting... I'll have to look at it when I can manage to pay for the book [or it's up on the normal sites].
Derek Dalton:
Rapid Shot: "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus."
Kinetic Blast: "As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet."
There is no provision for making a Kinetic Blast as a "full-attack action" therefor you may not use Rapid Shot with it. Any conclusion that they can be combined would be incorrect and can be easily seen as such by looking at the action types needed. It has nothing to do with it being treated like a weapon and everything to do with the action type.
To do as you think, you need to be an Elemental Annihilator. It's "Devastating Infusion (Su) says "At 1st level, an elemental annihilator can either shoot her kinetic blast at a target within 30 feet or make a single melee attack as if she were using kinetic blade as an attack action."
As each blast is an attack action, it can be used in a full attack action: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."
To answer your question, no. Read the class. The blasts state they are like a weapon not a spell. They have spell like abilities in talents and infusions but their base blast ability is addressed as a weapon rather then a spell. To me it reads like the charge action. By definition charge is supposed to be a full round action yet you can use it as a standard action. This is another example of poor editing on Pazio's part. Have read the class several times having played it as well and had another GM read it as well. He and I both concluded in our case Rapid Shot can be used with Simple Blast.
Rapid Shot doesn't work with a standard action SLA.
You and that GM have read it wrong. There may have been some editing issues, but if almost everyone is telling you one thing, maybe you should change direction in thinking of another.Read this post. Even since the playtest in 2014 with ABSOLUTELY no change in the ability since then, Rapid Shot has never worked with kinetic blast. It wasn't until Occult Adventures came out with Elemental Annihilator did a kineticist even have that option but only with Flurry of Devastation infusion.
Could anyone point me at a thread where good multi-level DPR numbers are run for multiple kinetisicts types? I have been napkin mathing and am not impressed but am willing to be swayed.
I am not asking anyone to do it again here but a pointer to already existing numbers would be nice. I admit it is pyro which is making me sad and aether which seems best for some utility so far, but I just want to see if I am incorrect.
Not trying to slam anything, but so far I do not see why anyone would play a kinetisict instead of other options. Please I would love to be wrong.
I have two Kineticists with Interweave Composite Blast that are f@@+ing s#!$ up in our campaign. One has pushing infusion, the other extended range.
Not much can get past those two. :-)
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Literally tonight, my aether/lightning (lvl 8) kineticist avoided inevitable capture due to at will invis, spied on the major foes in the camp that the friends were imprisoned at, mage handed a WAGON and HORSES out of harms way and stashed for a later getaway, and was still a top damage dealer for the group. The competing top dmg dealer is our new barb player who joined ~5 sessions ago and has literally critted with her giant axe once per session without fail.
Yes Aether tops the other elements in utility with a small sacrifice of damage, but I still top the charts for my party and I'm not even optimized. I picked WIS as my lvl 8 stat so my will save went up by 1. And I still got blinded tonight as the ONE foe used a scroll to see me and then threw a spell at me, as I was being awesome with my mage hands.
Nobody here is claiming the class is T1-2. Hell, outside of aether elemental focus, the class is a solid 4 with aether pushing a weak T3 due to its amazing utility. The class isn't the top DPR on paper, but it is among the top in practice and its DPR is reliable and more reliable than most top DPR builds out there. It's 'full attack' mode requires a full attack, OR it can take some non-lethal, and do it anyways despite moving. No other class to my knowledge can say "f$#~ it, I moved but I'm still going to full attack." (which I did tonight).
Sorry, pardon my semi-drunk rantings against the class haters.
here is where I did some math breakdown.
I definitely wouldn't call the class worthless. I think the class needs more support for a wider variety of wild talents/utility talents but that's mostly because I want to see more variation in Kineticist builds of the same element rather than the overall power necessarily being increased. Also I have a few grievances such as Aerokineticists breathing in water earlier than Hydrokineticists.
As far as I can tell, the biggest complaint people tend to have is with the damage it deals compared to an archer. I personally think the utility makes up for it but, as usual, YMMV. That said, I'm not sure we need the kineticist's DPR outright competing with the DPR of dedicated archers. The DPR output of archers is pretty insane already.
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I definitely wouldn't call the class worthless. I think the class needs more support for a wider variety of wild talents/utility talents but that's mostly because I want to see more variation in Kineticist builds of the same element rather than the overall power necessarily being increased. Also I have a few grievances such as Aerokineticists breathing in water earlier than Hydrokineticists.
As far as I can tell, the biggest complaint people tend to have is with the damage it deals compared to an archer. I personally think the utility makes up for it but, as usual, YMMV. That said, I'm not sure we need the kineticist's DPR outright competing with the DPR of dedicated archers. The DPR output of archers is pretty insane already.
I think there are several different complaints, DPR being just one of them. For my part, I could care less about DPR of the class. My issue is Burn sucking away HP, and the general lack of versatility and weakness compared to casters. If a class is a one-trick pony (earth stuff, water stuff, etc), then they should be better at that one trick than ANY other class. As we've seen though, Druids and arcane casters control the elements alot better than the Kineticist does. Druids and arcane casters get more elemental powers than the Kineticist, they get them at earlier levels, AND they can do a thousand other things, whereas the Kineticist can't do anything else. That makes the Kineticist just sad.
A sad class that lots of people recognize as being pretty good? If you say so...
DPR, as proven in the math, isn't the big deal complainers think.
What would be your alternative to burn? Because burn is necessary to balance a class that can blast all day. A class has to have some limitations, such as spells per day or burn or 1/2 BAB...
A sad class that lots of people recognize as being pretty good? If you say so...
DPR, as proven in the math, isn't the big deal complainers think.
What would be your alternative to burn? Because burn is necessary to balance a class that can blast all day. A class has to have some limitations, such as spells per day or burn or 1/2 BAB...
Look a burnless kineticist is the Overwhelming Soul.
So they could have written the kineticist to be the Overwhelming Soul and then have an archetype that allows for burn to be able to nova more times a day and everyone would be saying that the archetype was so OP, even if you had to pay HP to do it. Personally I'm glad they had burn be written as the default and then the archetype to remove it. Trying to add burn in an archetype probably would have been more words overall.
Look a burnless kineticist is the Overwhelming Soul.
Well... it's NOT just a "burnless kineticist". That I might have been interested in. What they did was make an alternate stat for undead kineticist that happens to not use burn because undead don't have con...
When they make an Archetype that keeps Con but drops burn then they'll have make a burnless kineticist instead of making a Charisma kineticist that happens to lack burn.
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Personally I think a "power pool" or "mana pool" of some kind is a far superior option than burn. Activating powers should have a pool cost rather than bleeding away your hps. Creating a Con-based caster only to have the HPs all sucked away by your powers is bait and switch from my perspective.
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It's been said before and I'll say it again: Burn is not reducing your HPs.
Burn applies non-lethal damages that can't be healed, yes. But your HP pool and your non-lethal pool are separate entities. If you have thirty points of burn you are staggered at 30 HP and unconscious at 29. But you do not need to worry about making stabilization checks or dying until you actually get to 0, and when you are knocked out, most things aren't going to stick around a CDG you.
That buffer will save your life if things go badly.
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It's been said before and I'll say it again: Burn is not reducing your HPs.
It reduces you effective hp and increases your KO 'buffer'. So it truly drops your usable HP and makes it easier for you to get knocked out of a fight. Hopefully your healer is still up to stand you back up...
Burn isn't a good thing...
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It's been said before and I'll say it again: Burn is not reducing your HPs.
Burn applies non-lethal damages that can't be healed, yes. But your HP pool and your non-lethal pool are separate entities. If you have thirty points of burn you are staggered at 30 HP and unconscious at 29. But you do not need to worry about making stabilization checks or dying until you actually get to 0, and when you are knocked out, most things aren't going to stick around a CDG you.
That buffer will save your life if things go badly.
Yeah, the fact is that if you burn yourself out and then take a big hit, you may be taken out of the fight be being rendered unconscious, but unless the enemy/encounter is (poorly) written to coup-de-grace even with other threats immediately present, you'll be keeping your character in the long run.
Basically, the less burn you take, the more you can play like a barbarian, while the more burn you take, the more you'll play like a wizard, but even if you take a big hit while carrying burn, it may not kill you.
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It's been said before and I'll say it again: Burn is not reducing your HPs.It reduces you effective hp and increases your KO 'buffer'. So it truly drops your usable HP and makes it easier for you to get knocked out of a fight. Hopefully your healer is still up to stand you back up...
Burn isn't a good thing...
It isn't a bad thing either, and while it is reducing your effective HP, it is also increasing your HP as your Con will rise from elemental overflow as a direct result of taking burn. Not to mention Elemental Defense, which is either giving you Temp HPs with force ward, or DR with earth, or a miss chance with air.
I agree that burn looks horrible on paper, but in actual play, it's very manageable and will make you more survivable, not less.
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A sad class that lots of people recognize as being pretty good? If you say so...
DPR, as proven in the math, isn't the big deal complainers think.
What would be your alternative to burn? Because burn is necessary to balance a class that can blast all day. A class has to have some limitations, such as spells per day or burn or 1/2 BAB...
Well, again, I said in my post I could care less about DPR. My major gripe is the Kineticist getting powers connected with their element (which they're supposed to be a master of) so much later than casters do. DPR wise, I actually think the Kineticist is fine as long as the player is comfortable accepting burn. Outside of combat though, they're extremely limited.
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It's been said before and I'll say it again: Burn is not reducing your HPs.It reduces you effective hp and increases your KO 'buffer'. So it truly drops your usable HP and makes it easier for you to get knocked out of a fight. Hopefully your healer is still up to stand you back up...
Burn isn't a good thing...
It isn't a bad thing either, and while it is reducing your effective HP, it is also increasing your HP as your Con will rise from elemental overflow as a direct result of taking burn. Not to mention Elemental Defense, which is either giving you Temp HPs with force ward, or DR with earth, or a miss chance with air.
I agree that burn looks horrible on paper, but in actual play, it's very manageable and will make you more survivable, not less.
I've tried 2 kineticist so far and burn is pretty horrible off paper too. Survival is counterbalanced by staying power for hp, either spending several resources on HP or frequently taking a nap during combat. If there was a viable alternative to Burn, I'd be all over it but the only option sidesteps the issues by changing stats and that just isn't a satisfying solution for me.
The rest... Damage is passible, abilities swing wildly from good to useless, and even the good options come from a slim set of options. Some elements picks are just pitiful, forcing you to pick universal [and crappy] powers because there aren't even elemental abilities for every pick...
Overall I could almost work with the class without burn. With burn I can't overlook the other shortcomings of the class vs my other play options.
Fighter d10
con 12 = 7hp per level.
con 14 = 8hp per level.
con 16 = 9hp per level.
Kineticist with 18Con
d8+4 = 9hp per level.
lv6 +2 size bonus = 10hp per level.
lv11 +4 size bonus = 11hp per level.
I stop caring above this
lv 1-2 factor 0 burn so 9ehp per level.
Lv 3-5 factor 1 burn so 8ehp per level.
Lv 6-10 factor 3 burn so 7ehp per level.
Lv 11 factor 5 burn so 6ehp per level.
This doesn't factor in that you're buying a con belt while the fighter is buying a str belt. So if you say we buy a +2 belt at lv6 then we're matching the EHP of a 14con fighter till lv11. So yes your EHP is lower than your HP, but your EHP is still quite good. Can you burn yourself out? Yes, but you don't need to to function. You do it when you need the nova or when you figure you're near the end of a day.
EDIT:
elemental soul
Con 14 = 7hp per level. A normal kineticist no belt is better or the same EHP till lv11.
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I've tried 2 kineticist so far and burn is pretty horrible off paper too. Survival is counterbalanced by staying power for hp, either spending several resources on HP or frequently taking a nap during combat. If there was a viable alternative to Burn, I'd be all over it but the only option sidesteps the issues by changing stats and that just isn't a satisfying solution for me.
My experience is different, but then Kineticist needs so few feats that it's easy to devote some resources to survival. First off, race selection to help with this. I like Gnome or Dwarf for the con boost. Gnome is better with small size, but dwarf has better saves. Start with a 18 con after racials, then add toughness, tribal scars, and hp FCBs, and you have more than enough HP to power elemental overflow and your defense, and then just leave any infusions to gather power and "oh s&!$" moments.
Well, again, I said in my post I could care less about DPR. My major gripe is the Kineticist getting powers connected with their element (which they're supposed to be a master of) so much later than casters do. DPR wise, I actually think the Kineticist is fine as long as the player is comfortable accepting burn. Outside of combat though, they're extremely limited.A sad class that lots of people recognize as being pretty good? If you say so...
DPR, as proven in the math, isn't the big deal complainers think.
What would be your alternative to burn? Because burn is necessary to balance a class that can blast all day. A class has to have some limitations, such as spells per day or burn or 1/2 BAB...
Yes, but they can do it all day. While the spell is only a handful of times a day if you use all your slots for it.
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Personally I think a "power pool" or "mana pool" of some kind is a far superior option than burn. Activating powers should have a pool cost rather than bleeding away your hps. Creating a Con-based caster only to have the HPs all sucked away by your powers is bait and switch from my perspective.Actually, this is my favorite part. I imagine this is as close as I'll ever get to Mongoose's Chaos Mage in PFS; aka casting from HPs. I like needing to make the choice.
A rather famous wizard sort of casted with HPs. Raistlin was often described as nearly casting himself to death.
Everybody has different preferences of course, to each their own. Raistlin isn't a good example though. He had severe health issues right from the start, whereas a Kineticist with a Con of 22 or 24 has superhuman stamina, health and fortitude. Raistlin's Con would be closer to 6.
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Everybody has different preferences of course, to each their own. Raistlin isn't a good example though. He had severe health issues right from the start, whereas a Kineticist with a Con of 22 or 24 has superhuman stamina, health and fortitude. Raistlin's Con would be closer to 6.Personally I think a "power pool" or "mana pool" of some kind is a far superior option than burn. Activating powers should have a pool cost rather than bleeding away your hps. Creating a Con-based caster only to have the HPs all sucked away by your powers is bait and switch from my perspective.Actually, this is my favorite part. I imagine this is as close as I'll ever get to Mongoose's Chaos Mage in PFS; aka casting from HPs. I like needing to make the choice.
A rather famous wizard sort of casted with HPs. Raistlin was often described as nearly casting himself to death.
Not to mention the fact that the novels really didn't use the ruleset, anyway.
First off, race selection to help with this. I like Gnome or Dwarf for the con boost.
Human and Caligni.
Start with a 18 con after racialsDone
toughness
Done
tribal scars
Done with one
hp FCBs
Some. Human going for Extra Wild Talent feat, Caligni hp/skill mix.
you have more than enough HP to power elemental overflow and your defense
We'll have to agree to disagree. With all the resources I put into hp, I should have more effective hp than my rogue... Sadly, I think my phantom thief has more versatility with Bookish Rogue + multiple major magic's and more effective hp.
gather power and "oh s*#*" moments.
The inability to offset burn from utility powers is a major sticking point for me. No matter how good or high leveled I get, I still pay burn for an ability I've had for 20 levels...
Defenses: the utility of these varies wildly. Searing Flesh and Emptiness are awful, Enveloping Winds varies wildly, Flesh of Stone becomes useless when your foes start carrying +4 weapons [though solid until then] while Flesh of Wood, Force Ward and Shroud of Water are the only ones to truly stay relevant most times. So burn for defense isn't always a great use of hp...
Damage: Fair at best. Quite honestly, even the one with touch attack doesn't seem to hit that well. Only once I picked up point blank shot/precise shot/weapon focus did I seem to hit to a reasonable degree.
Utility: A vast difference here. Starting off with different elements REALLY showcased the dramatic swing there can be in this category. Gods forbid you pick an element for anything else BUT this though as you may go though MANY level with useless abilities.
So you're saying that your kineticist
con 18 + toughness+6 had less EHP than a rogue?
D8=d8 so cancel that out
con 18+toghness is 5per level = con 14 I can only imagine is 2 per level 3 if FCB.
So lv1-2 you're at full HP, no burn needed.
3-5 you're down 1EHP per level still 1EHP per level +6 above the FCB hp rogue.
6-10 you're down 2EHP per level you're now +6EHP with the FCB hp rogue.
This again is assuming you haven't picked up a Con belt that gives you 1EHP per level up on the rogue that is likely to not get a con belt.
So either the rogue had an exceptionally large HP pool, or you were burning yourself out.
Also if going aether your EHP goes up quite a bit.
So, I've been going through Jade Regent, and my GM decided to replace the yetis with drow. As part of it, he built a water kineticist to give the drow support.
Drow Water Kineticist CR 6
XP 2,400
Drow hydrokineticist 7 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 114, Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures 10)
NE Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 120 ft.; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, +5 shield)
hp 70 (7d8+35)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +2; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep; SR 13
Weaknesses light blindness
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee short sword +6 (1d6+1/19-20)
Special Attacks kinetic blast, metakinesis (empower)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +7)
. . 1/day—dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire
Kineticist Wild Talents Known
. . Defense—shroud of water
. . Infusions—entangling infusion (DC 16), extended range, impale, torrent (DC 16)
. . Blasts—cold blast (4d6+1 cold), ice blast (8d6+11 ½ cold and ½ piercing), water blast (4d6+7)
. . Utility—basic hydrokinesis, cold adaptation, icewalker, kinetic healer
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 19
Feats Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Toughness, Weapon Focus (kineticist blast)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Craft (sculpture) +9, Perception +12, Stealth +13, Swim +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Aquan, Elven, Undercommon
SQ burn (2 points/round, max 6), elemental overflow +2, expanded element (water), gather power, infusion specialization 1, internal buffer 1, poison use
Combat Gear potion of barkskin +2, potion of cat's grace, potion of protection from good, potion of shield of faith +2; Other Gear mithral chain shirt, short sword, belt of mighty constitution +2, 19 pp
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Special Abilities
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Burn 2/round (7 nonlethal/burn, 6/day) Burn HP to gain greater effects on your wild talents.
Cold Adaptation (Sp) endure elements against cold, and gain Cold Resistance = 2x current burn
Cold Blast (Sp) Level 3; Burn 0
Darkvision (120 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Drow Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elemental Overflow (Ex) Gain a bonus to hit and damage with your blast when you use burn.
Entangling Infusion (DC 16) Your blast can entangle a foe.
Extended Range Kinetic blast has range of 120ft.
Gather Power (Su) Move: reduce the burn cost of a blast by 1 or Full-round: reduce the burn cost of a blast by 2
Ice Blast (Sp) Level 3; Burn 2
Icewalker (Su) Move across wet and icy surfaces without needing to attempt Acrobatics checks.
Impale Blast attack a 30 ft line.
Infusion Specialization 1 (Ex) Reduce burn cost of blasts with infusions by 1
Internal Buffer 1 (Su) Store burn for use later
Kinetic Blast (Sp) The kineticist can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will.
Kinetic Healer (Sp) Heal others equal to your blast damage
Light Blindness (Ex) Bright light blinds for 1 rd, then dazzled as long as remain in it.
Metakinesis (1 burn: Empower) (Su) By accepting burn you affect your kinetic blast as if using a metamagic ability.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Poison Use (Ex) This race is skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Spell Resistance (13) You have Spell Resistance.
Torrent (DC 16) Blast becomes a 30' line
Water Blast (Sp) Level 3; Burn 0
Since the herolab output didn't put it out there to easily see, this character spent 2 burn on boosting Shroud of Water to a +5 shield bonus, and they thus have a +11 to hit with either kinetic blast.
I will note that this character has NPC wealth for their level, and uses the elite array. If they take the time to drink three of their potions, their AC jumps by 6, a respectable number in my opinion, they can use their entangling infusion to knock people down, and they can heal their allies (by and large 4th level fighter/rangers, who'd take the burn, thus healing 4d6+7 in exchange for 4 nonlethal damage), in addition to being able to deal with the icy terrain of the Crown of the World without any real issues.
Overall I find the class is fairly effective (and can be quite useful in a variety of situations) but not incredibly adaptable. My geokineticist in Mummy's Mask does most of the damage for the party (at least consistently) with +9 to-hit and 3d6+9 (x1.5 if I can gather power) almost every round at level 5. I mostly use Kinetic Cover to put behind existing doors to block enemy escape routes, or using Earth Climb to get line of sight on enemies more easily. I dislike the variety of low-end utility powers, but they work.
Anyway, my two cents on the class.
So you're saying that your kineticist
con 18 + toughness+6 had less EHP than a rogue?
The rogue uses every FCB for hp while the human spent them on the free feat. Both have toughness. So D8=d8 and toughness = toughness, so cancel that out. 18 = 16 + FCB. So +6...
lv1-2 +6 kineticist, no burn needed.3 +3 kineticist
4 even
5 -3 kineticist
6 -6
7 -8
ect...
rogue had an exceptionally large HP pool
Not really. I have like 12 skill points per level so the FCB to hp is a no brainer. She has the equivalent of 20 feats to take, so a feat for toughness is a drop in the bucket. The only difference is a +2 stat bonus and +6 hp from scars.
Also if going aether your EHP goes up quite a bit
Yes, that element is an exception. You can almost convince yourself you have high hp with it and if you're lucky it might actually work out that way [depending on how often your temp hp heal].
@ Graystone
I'm beginning to wonder what sorts of campaigns you've been running your kineticist(s) through.
One kineticist in an eberron game, another in Crimson Throne. Rogue in mummy's mask.
Derek Dalton: Suck? No I wouldn't go that far, but burn makes me wonder why I'm not playing another class. I'd heard the argument that they where awesome if I'd 'just give it a chance', so I tried two... So far I'm underwhelmed. Things have worked out pretty much how I thought they would but at least now I can refute those that think it's only those that haven't played the class that aren't thrilled with it.
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Fair enough Greystone. I have played a lot of classes the ones I like I still want to play. Others I avoid finding nothing about them useful or interesting. I want to play a Drow Void Kinetsicist overwhelming Soul to see if they work better then the base class. Archtypes in most cases are actually weaker in a lot of ways then the base class.
To be fair, while a lot of archetypes are weaker, the ones that people actually use tend to be anywhere between slightly better and hilariously better. Also, it's kind of hard to suggest void since it has so few talents. Both the OO elements were painfully lacking in page space for what they needed to be a fully fleshed out element (and that's with the consideration that 'full elements' generally only have 1-2 options at each level.
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I'm not sure where the HP complaint is coming from, if that's a major concern I just built mine to stand up front to tank.
He's going to be at 76 HP with a 25 con at level 5, and I'll be picking up Die hard so he doesn't pass out early due to burn. He'll be able to stay up till something can deal a huge amount of HP damage to him, and he's wearing a Breath of Life talisman so I don't accidentally get him murdered by staying up too long. Throw on his scaling DR and I don't know of anything that can beat his EHP.
I want to play a Drow Void Kinetsicist overwhelming Soul to see if they work better then the base class. Archtypes in most cases are actually weaker in a lot of ways then the base class.
Ahhhh.... I'm a void user because the Caligni's See in Darkness ability. Void is PAINFUL in it's lack of talents and the near uselessness of it's defense. On the plus side, as long as you avoid undead you don't have to worry much about resistances. Undead will ruin your day...
To be fair, while a lot of archetypes are weaker, the ones that people actually use tend to be anywhere between slightly better and hilariously better.
Well I'd say archetypes AND elements. The swing in power between the elements is huge.
I'm not sure where the HP complaint is coming from, if that's a major concern I just built mine to stand up front to tank.
It's a complaint of hp compared to burn and con vs other similar characters. As I pointed out, my rogue beats out my Kinetsicist after a few levels and I wasn't focusing on hp with my rogue...
I'm not sure where the HP complaint is coming from, if that's a major concern I just built mine to stand up front to tank.
He's going to be at 76 HP with a 25 con at level 5, and I'll be picking up Die hard so he doesn't pass out early due to burn. He'll be able to stay up till something can deal a huge amount of HP damage to him, and he's wearing a Breath of Life talisman so I don't accidentally get him murdered by staying up too long. Throw on his scaling DR and I don't know of anything that can beat his EHP.
Die hard doesn't prevent you from going unconcious when your non-lethal matches your hp.
Even if it did, burn specifically states that absolutely no effect can change the effects of non-lethal damage the moment you take a single point of burn.
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I'm seeing a lot of complaint about Burn. Me I avoided using it as much as possible and did quite well without having to worry about it. Burn is not all that useful when you really look at it which is why I did everything to avoid getting any.
My loathing for Burn is assuming it's used a bare minimum amount of times for your bonuses. It would get even worse is you went crazy with burn.
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To be fair, while a lot of archetypes are weaker, the ones that people actually use tend to be anywhere between slightly better and hilariously better.Well I'd say archetypes AND elements. The swing in power between the elements is huge.
Trust me, I REALLY agree. Earth/Aether are amazing, Water/Air are pretty good, Fire/Void are okay...ish, and Wood...is terrible.