It makes them a lot more annoying to play at level 1 because you can barely afford anything (weapon using monks can't even always buy their weapon of choice) but ends up not mattering in the long run because even by level 2 or 3 100 gold is trivial.
It just seems to make them weirdly frustrating to play for... exactly one level.
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They assume you are either not using weapons, or you bought terrible ones like a quarterstaff (ie- 0 gold)
Yes, it is silly.
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It's because of the aesthetic of an ascetic.
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Freddy the Fighter: Huh. We've never had a monk in the group before. This is... well, this is gonna be weird.
Tae Kwon Kill: こんにちは。私はタイクォン・キルです。お会いできて光栄です。
Rita the Rogue: ...What in Bahamut's name did he just say?
Edvard Eddard, Evoker Extraordinaire: I have no idea.
Paladog: Bark.
Rita: Where's all his money? His swords, his knives, his arrows, his armor?
Tae Kwon Kill: 私は剣や鎧を必要としません。爆発顔の道は私の武器です。
Edvard: Say whaaaa~?!
Amy the Alchemist: Can you cast spells?
Tae Kwon Kill: 私の味方のために精神です。そして、強力な同盟国はそれがあります。人生は、それが成長になり、それが作成されます。そのエネルギーは、私たちを取り囲み、私た ちを封止します。光の存在がないこの粗製の問題は、我々をしています。
Barto the Bard: Damn it, can't anybody actually speak his language?!
Tae Kwon Kill: (looks right at Barto) 北斗神拳...スピニング パイルドライバー！！！ (proceeds to beat Barto senseless with rapid-fire punches and kicks) お前はもう死んでいる。
Barto: Nooooooooo (head explodes)
Rita: I think he speaks our language loud and clear.
What are the complaints about? They gave you a free outfit right? Slings and stones cost nothing. You can even take as many clubs and quarterstaff you want. What more is there? ;)
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It's because of the aesthetic of an ascetic.
Thanks to the aesthetic of an ascetic, I can't afford any anesthetic.
Pathetic.
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Snorbs story is hilarious. I love it.
Sadly, the monk would get his ass whipped by a bard, but the legend rarely reflects the reality. :P
If anything everyone should have the same starting gold, since they do at every level after 1st.
If anything everyone should have the same starting gold, since they do at every level after 1st.
If the monk wants cash, he coup de grace's the rich people as they sleep. Or it gives you a good reason to take profession: Beggar! Just need to scrap up a bowl as you already have the right clothes! ;)
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Part of it is that they do need less at early levels than most martial classes - or rather, they can't use bows, crossbows, and armour, all of which can be expensive.
But they also get half as much as sorcerers, and that's just image. If they got 2d6x10gp instead of just d6x10 then they'd have a much easier time affording a decent melee weapon or a fancy skill kit if desired.
Interestingly their class kit of basic gear (from Ultimate Equipment) is missing a bedroll (they get a blanket instead), flint and steel, iron pot, and mess kit, which most other classes get. It's one of the three cheapest kits - tying with sorcerers and summoners, which do get mess kits and bedrolls but don't get rope.
their starting gold is so low is because they don't need much
It'd be better in a way if instead of just starting gold, you also got some default class appropriate gear:
Class kit
2 melee weapons
1 ranged weapon
Class appropriate armor, not higher than medium.
Assorted other class specific items.
After all of that default starting gear, then you could add some meager starting wealth.
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The intent is pretty clearly that, not needing armor or weapons, what does he really need to buy?
That works thematically, and isn't a huge deal mechanically either. Starting using unarmed combat or a quarterstaff just isn't that big a deal at 1st level.
Snorbs story is hilarious. I love it.
Sadly, the monk would get his ass whipped by a bard, but the legend rarely reflects the reality. :P
Eh. Probably not if the Monk's built well via Archetypes (or Unchained).
Bard's a better Class, but no match in a straight fight without buffing (and possibly not even with, depending on build), especially at low levels.
Unless we're talking unmodified corebook Monk, but who uses that any more?
Snorbs story is hilarious. I love it.
Sadly, the monk would get his ass whipped by a bard, but the legend rarely reflects the reality. :P
They'll just hug it out, bro. Hug so tight, bro love is suffocating. Oh wait, the bard isn't breathing anymore? Sorry. Forgot that by body is a registered lethal weapon.
On topic, the monk lives and dies by their case ability scores. Grab a temple sword, some shuriken/ropedart and the bare adventuring necessities and your good for a few levels.
their starting gold is so low is because they don't need much
If you're playing an unarmed, unarmored monk, yeah. If you want to use a monk weapon that's gonna eat into your starting gold pretty heavily (a temple sword leaves you with 5 gold left over for everything else).
Nevermind if you're some flavor of archetype. A Sohei is going to be gearing themselves similarly to a swashbuckler, rogue or slayer (or lightly armored fighter I guess) with a quarter of the rogue's gold.
A zen archer can't even afford a long bow. You're buying a shortbow and regular arrows and even that leaves you with an absolute maximum of four gold (and chances are you're going to want more than 20 arrows).
The fluff angle makes some sense, but it also doesn't feel like the most powerful position because, again, it basically equalizes out as soon as you hit level two.
The temple sword is really too expensive. If you're actually rolling for starting gold instead of taking the average, there's a good chance you won't be able to start with one at all.
It's part of the flavor of the class. Same reason why each class has its own skill list (it's not a matter of mechanical balance). And if you think such flavor makes for a bad class, then ask the fighter and rogue how many good saving throws they have. Theirs were also chosen for flavor reasons, but the mechanical effect endures far beyond 1st or 2nd level.
Remember - the temple sword didn't even exist when the monk's starting gold was set.
And thus they assumed that a str monk would use a quarterstaff, which costs 0 gold.
Not saying it was a good idea- obviously it wasn't since they had to add and add good equipment. I'm not the type that thinks monks needed all monk type weapons (cause seriously? Tiger fork?) but a nice representative amount of functional equipment for basic playstyles. Kind of like how simple weapons accomplish this, by giving light, 1 handed, and even 2 handed reach weapons (admittedly the stats aren't good, but they don't have the problem of 'can't be cold iron' seen with quarterstaff).
If anything everyone should have the same starting gold, since they do at every level after 1st.
You adventure with more socialist characters than mine tend to.
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No, what I am saying is it doesn't make sense that everyone's starting gold is different at level one but starting at level 2 or higher everyone gets the same amount of gold.
No, what I am saying is it doesn't make sense that everyone's starting gold is different at level one but starting at level 2 or higher everyone gets the same amount of gold.
What? Would you risk your life as an adventurer, just to have the guy next to you get paid much, much more? Not that such relationships wouldn't exist, but there is only so many times you can get grappled by a mind flayer before you ask for a pay raise.
In game terms, it is because magical items become more of a 'thing' as levels go up. Everyone wants a cloak of resistance. Some differences, such as martials want magical weapons, while casters want wands, scrolls, adn staves, but it all about evens out to some degree.
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You even wonder why some traits give you extra gold or equipment? Ancestral Weapon, Heirloom Weapon, rich parents, Chosen Child, Coin Hoarder, Destined for Greatness, Harrow Chosen, Lair Snake, Lost Role Model, Ustalavic Noble and Signature Moves.
Unless you can't take traits, you have no issue taking them to 'fix' the problem. That zen archer? Signature Moves gives a masterwork Composite Longbow, with gp to spare for adding strength bonuses. Plus he gets skill bonuses when he has his bow in hand.
Sohei wants some equipment has to look no further than Lesser Noble (+100 gp plus skill bonuses) or pure cash traits like rich parents or Chosen Child.
Any monk wanting a kit takes Destined For Greatness, for any kit no more than 300 gp that automatically restores itself when you enter a settlement.
So there are options for the cash poor starting characters and most are pretty cool. For instance Ancestral Weapon would be worth a trait without it giving you 500 gp worth of weapon.
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You are far too focused on worldly possessions grasshopper
But Sensei, using this temple sword allows me to hit more often.
[+2 hit, Ancestral Weapon +1 plus masterwork +1]
But Sensei, using this temple sword allows me to hit more often.
[+2 hit, Ancestral Weapon +1 plus masterwork +1]
"And this stick makes me hit more often"- masterwork ancestral quarterstaff.
Now "it lets me hurt demons/fairies/werewolves/etc". That might be a better argument. Cause quarterstaves not only lack metal for special materials, I am fairly sure you can't even apply alchemical sheens (since it is wood, and the sheens need fire- not a good mix)
lemeres: I'm not understanding the quarterstaff reply. It's not usually a valid weapon for that trait. Temple sword would, hence my using it in my last post.
To the rest, the +2 to hit is FAR more noticeable than hurting special monsters at low levels. As you up though, you it's a nice bonus too.
PS: staves CAN be made out of metal, as seen in a few magic items like the Staff of Mithral Might. There's just no rules on how to do so.
I don't understand this discussion.
A Sansetsukuon or a Nine-Section Whip are both cheap ass weapons with great stats. What else would you need?
Only the Unchained monk gets proficiency with those out of the box.
Problem solved then.
Only the Unchained monk gets proficiency with those out of the box.
it's not hard to figure out how to use a weapon. For instance, Military Tradition for a human gives 2 weapon proficiencies.
And if we're going by the base monk, what weapon are you looking at? Every non-crossbow weapon they are proficient in costs 0-10 gp. Only the crossbow actually require you to roll more than minimum gp to buy [35 or 50 gp]. So the OP's question makes no sense if we're talking an normal "out of the box" monk.
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It's not hard to get extra proficiencies or for that matter extra gold. But should we expect a non-Unchained monk to spend a trait or exchange their human bonus feat for a decent weapon? The earlier example was the temple sword. You could also want silver or cold iron weapons. A light silver weapon at a little over 20gp is most of the monk's wealth but a relatively minor expense for most martials.
I know Secret Wizard doesn't see any reason to play a non-Unchained monk, but not everyone wants to chuck a whole bunch of neat monk archetypes into the garbage. Paizo certainly found it worthwhile to eratta MoMS after the UnMonk was published.
I never said I didn't see a reason to play Vanilla Monk.
I can see the point of playing Sohei (though barely, cause it misses so much), Zen Archer, Far Strike Monk, Sensei, perhaps Drunken Master (very, very slow to enable itself), and even Master of Many Styles (though I think it does try too hard to do something that doesn't really do much beyond look cool).
But if you are playing a Monk who wants to use a weapon to bash people, Unchained Monk is as good as it gets.
The Zen Archer may not have enough money for a bow, that's for sure. 30gp for the shortbow seems a bit hard, but you should be able to get itat least from scrounging an allies pack.
Get a trait for extra gold. Building for it is what everyone needs to do (except 9 level casters).
Get a trait for extra gold. Building for it is what everyone needs to do (except 9 level casters).
Signature Moves solves all Weirdo's Zen Archer needs. 900 gp should be plenty for your bow plus you get some skill bonuses.
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I don't have any Zen Archer needs. I have Zen Archer conceptual objections.
Namely, how come this character needs to spend a trait to be able to afford their basic starting weapon? How does that make sense? Why are we building for something that should just be automatic?
This is like having a gunslinger who doesn't start with a battered gun.
I don't have any Zen Archer needs. I have Zen Archer conceptual objections.
Namely, how come this character needs to spend a trait to be able to afford their basic starting weapon? How does that make sense? Why are we building for something that should just be automatic?
This is like having a gunslinger who doesn't start with a battered gun.
But it IS something like the battered gun. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type and it's only worth 4d10 gp.
For that trait, you get a masterwork longbow of whatever strength you have made out of [Whipwood/greenwood/Darkwood] and gives you a +1 bluff/intimidate. I don't see that as a bad thing.
As for as conceptual objections, Signature Moves [You're known for some unique item that has become your trademark] seems a perfect fit with "The zen archer takes a weapon most other monks eschew".
If ALL of that isn't enough to satisfy you, then how about the fact that a Shortbow costs 30 gp. That leaves the average monk with 5gp to buy arrows so it's not as if the class can't start with their weapon.
There is also this from the GMG. "Alternatively, if other players consent, a player with a character concept that logically demands it might get a 10–20% bonus to their starting budget." If you don't quite make the average with your 10d6 gp you can always ask for this exception.
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The difference is that the battered gun is a functional weapon that can be used from level 1 without spending any additional resources from outside the class. And being able to upgrade it to masterwork easily is a nice additional bonus because it means you don't have to actually buy a different, expensive pistol once you can afford a masterwork weapon.
The trait is nice, but it should be a bonus option if you want a really fancy weapon (like it would be for any other class) not something you need to afford any weapon.
If you only have 5gp left after the weapon (4gp after a measly 20 arrows) you can't afford the already cheap 8gp "monk kit" with just a backpack, a belt pouch, a blanket, rope, soap, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), and a waterskin. You can't even afford the blanket, torches, food, and waterskin, and a sack to put it in (4.2gp).
Seriously, why not just give the monk 2d6x10gp like the darn sorcerer?
Weirdo: As I said in my last post, you can always get 20% more. I think most parties wouldn't have an issue.
If you're looking for a house rule, how about 'monks get one weapon that they can flurry with along with their 1d6x10 gp'. Should solve things.
As to "not something you need to afford any weapon": Normal, non-firearm, non-mastercraft weapons can cost up to 800 gp, out of the reach of 5d6 × 10 gp. What's the difference between a monk wanting a seven branch sword and a fighter wanting a Repeating hand crossbow. Both want weapons that cost more than their starting cash.
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What's the difference between a monk wanting a seven branch sword and a fighter wanting a Repeating hand crossbow. Both want weapons that cost more than their starting cash.
Not all wants are equal. It's why we mock businessmen who complain about not being able to afford their second house thanks to the recession.
A fighter can afford a seven branched sword plus a shortbow plus scale mail plus a silver and cold iron dagger and still have 19gp left over for survival gear. Or they could buy a longbow, studded leather, 20 arrows, 20 cold iron arrows, 20 silver arrows, a buckler, and a longsword, with 12 gp left over. A monk cannot afford even the first weapon on either list.
And if there's a weapon that the fighter can't afford, it's because it's been deliberately priced out of the reach of 1st level characters in general, presumably for balance reasons. Masterwork weapons, composite longbows, and full plate all give bigger bonuses than you're expected to have at 1st level.
You could make the argument that the monk is an unusually front-loaded class and that giving inferior weapon access at level 1 is a balancing feature. But in that case, good game design would mean making all good monk weapons - such as the Sansetsukuon - too expensive for a 1st level monk. And then giving monk archetypes that rely on having a particular weapon (like the Zen Archer) that weapon as a class feature, like the Gunslinger gets.
And if there's a weapon that the fighter can't afford, it's because it's been deliberately priced out of the reach of 1st level characters in general, presumably for balance reasons. Masterwork weapons, composite longbows, and full plate all give bigger bonuses than you're expected to have at 1st level.
Going by this logic, the seven branched sword was deliberately priced out of the range of the average character that would use it, monks. Therefor, it seems like identical and equal reasons. You want something the creators didn't want you to without using extra resources.
And then giving monk archetypes that rely on having a particular weapon (like the Zen Archer) that weapon as a class feature, like the Gunslinger gets.
This is about the only point that I can agree with but only to a point. The shortbow is still buyable with average gp and the Zen Archer doesn't get a weapon specific feat until 2nd so it really isn't an issue for them. Same for weapon adept. If the remaining gp seems too low, take craft skills and make your ammo and other things for 1/3rd cost. Or your weapon for that matter. Seems pretty flavorful part of your training that you have to make your bow/sword/ect to understand it's exclusive use.
This is like having a gunslinger who doesn't start with a battered gun.
what about the other gun using archetypes that don't give out a starting gun?
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Picaroon and Savage Technologist? That should probably also be fixed, though I don't think an archetype supporting sword-and-pistol style is quite on the same level as a class built around a singular weapon.
Going by this logic, the seven branched sword was deliberately priced out of the range of the average character that would use it, monks. Therefor, it seems like identical and equal reasons. You want something the creators didn't want you to without using extra resources.
See the point in the next paragraph - that this is good game design if and only if all good monk weapons are priced out of the reach of the monk. If a monk can afford a sansetsukuon but not a seven branched sword, it's not balance, it's arbitrary. At best it's enforcing a particular flavour on the player, which I find undesirable.
If the remaining gp seems too low, take craft skills and make your ammo and other things for 1/3rd cost. Or your weapon for that matter. Seems pretty flavorful part of your training that you have to make your bow/sword/ect to understand it's exclusive use.
Which is a neat idea, but we're back to requiring the character to spend resources outside of their class features to get a weapon that should not be that hard to afford. The Gunslinger doesn't actually have to put ranks in Craft(firearms).