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We've gotten to the point where it was about to happen. The entire group decided it was better to just turn back the clock.
Here's a quick summary leaving a lot of details out: We were playing an undead campaign and our group had gotten captured by your standard ultra powerful level 20 Vampire villain of the overarching plot. The villain wanted to use us as undead weapons of mass destruction which involved a long process of going through surgery where we would become all sorts of different unique undead creatures (my character for example would become a kind of unliving spellscroll). He basically gave us an ultimatum; we could go along with his plan willingly or be put through the process by force and lose all memories we've had in our lives up to this point. When we got to the point where we were about to undergo the first of many surgeries, the party attempted to escape. Unfortunately this wasn't the point where the GM was expecting us to attempt to escape and had to improvise. The party was split up due to being led to different operating rooms and while myself and another caster were able to make short work of our own immediate guards, the others weren't as quick and lagged behind a bit. Me and my caster buddy hurried to a portal we knew was in the fortress due to the BBEG not locking us up for agreeing to the plan and some investigation but came upon the boss encounter the GM intended for the whole party to face without anywhere near as much resistance (he expected us to attempt to sneak out at an opportune moment) as we had drawn on ourselves. We ended the session knowing that next session it would just be the two Sorcerers attempting to fight and subdue an old enemy Graveknight blocking the narrow doorway quick enough before the other guards caught up with us.
We were only level 7 and had no way to bypass the Graveknight so the GM asked us if we would rather turn the clock back and inserting it as a sort of fever dream we had while undergoing the first part of the surgeries. The group agreed and we happily played on as normal. Plenty of mistakes were made on both sides of the screen but it was our first campaign playing Pathfinder.
TPKs...
1) 1st edition, Against the Giants, part 3 (Fire Giants). Party fighter was wearing a Necklace of Fireballs, failed his save against a fireball. Boom. Only survivor of the party was the fighter/thief scouting ahead, fortunately with a ring of invisibility. He went back and scavenged the party's loot and bodies into his portable hole. Went off and got them ressurrected.
2) Also 1st ed, I was a player in Tomb of Horrors. TPK for walking along a corridor. No-one happy about that one, immediately retconned into allowing the thief to roll to spot the trap before we all died.
3) Party stops immediately outside the BBEG's final room. Party argues at length about exactly what tactics they were going to follow, loudly, and despite at least 3 warnings that their characters could sense that they were being scryed upon. BBEG and minions had the perfect counters to what they tried. This would have been a TPK, but I had them knocked out instead of killed and then Geased to serve the BBEG. Eventually, they broke free and returned to kill the BBEG.
When I am GMing, I tend to pull a punch or two if I think they are getting overwhelmed. If I miscalculate and the fight looks too easy, I add something, some of the time. The times to be careful are when an enemy has a special ability that can put multiple PCs out of action simultaneously. Eg Yeth Hounds baying; Umber Hulks with confusion every round. Poor dice rolls from everyone can turn an easy fight into a TPK.
I've had a couple of TPKs whilst GMing. The TPKs are invariably a result of poor decision making and a lack of planning by the players (i.e. no reconnaissance, just blunder in and assume they will win). I allow the party 'a moment of insight' and rewind to the last point before the decision that leads to the TPK. The party incurs an XP debt equivalent to the encounter they failed and gains no XP when they do win that encounter.
The players tend to take it as a learning experience and are more careful in the future.
If the TPK is a result of me being bad/wrong as GM (read a statblock wrong, designed an encounter that was far too challenging without offering a means of escape, etc.), I rewind and do it over. If the TPK is a result of the entire party being idiots despite nudges towards the right direction, I let them wipe. The latter has happened once in my entire career of GMming (in a 3.5 campaign), and just had them all roll up a new party and I rebooted the campaign in a different part of the world (still tackling the same major plot overall since the party was barely into it at that point, but I shifted locations and specifics to keep things fresh -- they wouldn't have known the old plot was tied to the original until far later on).
I always have a recovery scenario for a TPK in the back of my head when I'm running a game, which typically changes depending where they are in the plot (or if there's an overarching plot rather than episodic thing, etc.)
Sometimes that scenario involves making new characters with a particular hook to follow up on the dead characters, sometimes it involves a scenario where the dead characters come back, etc. Really depends on the circumstances but I make sure I plan ahead for that sort of possibility so I'm never caught without a plan.
As such I usually won't pull too many punches to stop a TPK in progress.
The best TPKs are the ones the DM doesn't see coming.
Two weeks ago, the Mummy's Mask campaign I'm playing in had one. 2nd-level, just as our roleplays were starting to gel, we encountered something bad.
It's not unreasonable to throw around save-or-suck effects. It is unreasonable to expect the entire party to roll 3s and 4s for their saves. Poof, 1st round of combat the entire party was incapacitated.
Surprise!
The DM just looked shocked.
In that case, he basically had us taken prisoners, waking to make our escape. A good call so we didn't lose our developing characters so... abruptly.
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Plus the practical part. Sucks to get a TPK when you are $20 into your $75 super dungeon.
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TPK.
Depending on the type of game and the table's social contract maybe they're common, or maybe its never happened at your table. How have you handled it in your games? Would you have done it different if the same situation happened with another campaign you've run (or for a game shop group vs a family game?)
We decide what to play next week, & spend the rest of the evening brainstorming/BSing.
Every now & then we have to have a boardgame night while the DM preps.Would I do it differently? Nope, not at all. Doesn't matter where I'm DMing.
As a player how did you take it? Would you rather have the GM fudge rolls to prevent a TPK or prefer the danger of it?
I don't have any problems with TPKs. They happen. If I wanted some guarantee of how a story would end I'd go write a book. Or re-read one.
Or re-watch a movie.Instead I choose to spend a lot of time playing a game where dice rolls are important to exactly how the stories turn out.
Sometimes that means you roll the dice & get a surprise ending.
On fudging rolls: I don't want the DM to fudge ANY roll. If you've got a specific outcome you want to have happen? Then have the balls to just make it happen. Don't dress it up in fake dice rolls.
If instead you're intending to leave it up to chance? Then roll your dice in the open & let's see what happens....
Any advice on how the group can roll with? If you've had it happen and the GM ret-con'd it....how did the group feel about it over time?
Accept it as part of the game & play on. Mourn the characters you've lost as much as they deserve and get on with rolling up new characters.
I'm not a fan of ret-cons. So if a DM did that because he thought "Oh no, I screwed up & killed them!"? I'd loose respect for them.
Never had a proper TPK. Usually, my NPCs have goals that the PCs are obstructing. When they're defeated/killed, they're out of the way.
For instance, once the rest of the party fled a fight leaving one PC to fight. What did the baddie do? Gloat, but otherwise leave the pc unharmed. Oh, they beat the party protecting the king? Welp, gonna just kill the king then, no need to off that other "guard".
That said, even if it happened, I'd try to mitigate it by letting at least one pc live, even if I cheese it a bit(you're a ghost now, or you survived but are horrifically scarred/damaged). Not everyone though, but I also have had groups with people who actually like rerolling(for the most part).
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Sucks to get a TPK when you are $20 into your $75 super dungeon.
I'm happy to make a new party to continue the adventure where the first one left off (perhaps with some GM creativity to cover the gap). Even if it means, implausibly, there just happen to be four level 13 heroes in the area who no-one ever noticed before.
I hate leaving a storyline unresolved.
Sucks to get a TPK when you are $20 into your $75 super dungeon.I'm happy to make a new party to continue the adventure where the first one left off (perhaps with some GM creativity to cover the gap). Even if it means, implausibly, there just happen to be four level 13 heroes in the area who no-one ever noticed before.
I hate leaving a storyline unresolved.
My choice during the 1-2nd edition days. 'I was just exploring and heard the battle and would like to join your group.' 'Welcome tot he group!'
I've never actually had a TPK, as all the parties I've played in or GMed have generally been pretty smart about tactics. Have had several near-deaths in my current campaign, but those were averted by a character with breath of life.
It would really depend on the situation: whether the encounter was way too hard due to my error/miscalculation, whether the PCs had catastrophically bad luck due to die rolls or the enemies fluke-critted four times in a row, that kind of thing. I would probably plan some way for them to be raised, but that would definitely have an effect on the game. (So....that cleric you guys met had you brought back, but guess what he wants in return?) If it was actually my error, though, I'd definitely allow a rewind if the party wanted to go that route. Most people in my groups prefer sticking with the same character the whole way through, because our games tend to be pretty RP-heavy and character-focused. I'd probably discuss it with the players and take into account what they wanted to do, as well.
I have TPKd three or four parties. Only once out of malice (I was 17 and a girl showed up, so I wanted to end the game and hang out with her). Once because the party attacked several demon avatars during a diplomatic gathering. Once because the party failed to use the special magic items I gave them for the purpose of defeating the enemy.
TPKs...
2) Also 1st ed, I was a player in Tomb of Horrors. TPK for walking along a corridor. No-one happy about that one, immediately retconned into allowing the thief to roll to spot the trap before we all died.
That was the basic concept of Tomb of Horrors though - open a door, die, enter a room, die, look at the carvings on the wall, die.
I did tpk a party once, with an over-statted encounter, and that resulted in 'can someone else ref next week.' It was a result of running out of time to write the campaign and just using something random without thinking about the possible consequences.
Personally, I will very rarely 'fudge' the dice. There are however a few exceptions.
1) New players. I will definitely take it easy on a new player for a while. I won't guarantee his safety. But maybe the crit just didn't quite confirm. Or the SoD spell he just failed his save against was a SoS spell. Things like that. I'm also more likely to give them a bit bigger circumstance bonus for clever ideas.
2) When it is my mistake. One time I made an ambush encounter more dangerous than I expected. There were several low level casters, terrain advantages, clever tactics, etc... that worked together extremely well. About 3 rounds in I suddenly realized the PC's had zero chance of even running away from what what was supposed to be a minor scare that gave them clues about a new enemy.
I rapidly reduced levels, hp, the expendables that were about to be used, reduced the level of poisons on the bolts, and eliminated the remaining waves.
There are a couple of things I often do to avoid unexpected results on noncritical encounters. I don't usually give casters very many SoD spells. If a weapon is x3 or x4 weapon, I will treat it like a 19-20/x2 or 18-20/x2 weapon. They get the scare of 'oh crap I just got crit with a heavy pick!' Then a sigh of relief that I 'rolled' badly and they aren't quite con dead.
But other than that, I usually let things fall where they will. The bad guys will behave as intelligently as can be expected for what they are and if the party is too stupid, it just may go badly for them.
As a player, I've been involved in a few near TPKs where several PCs died, but not all of them. Having characters die in game gives the campaign gravitas and weight and in my opinion should not be retconned or rewound. That said, I've never been in a total TPK and would probably be bummed out to see everyone die at once.
As a GM, I never intentionally set out to kill the party, so when I feel a potential TPK coming on, I start looking for options to help the party. I don't want to kill them, but I would never rewind events. I've warned players "not to fail" a particular save or two and may strongly hint that they should spend an Hero Point to improve their chance of success.
If there are NPCs that can aid the party nearby, I am not against having them help the PCs when they need it, but only in the most dire of circumstances. No one wants to be the hero of a campaign that has to be saved time and time again by NPCs. I've never fudged a roll to help a PC, but I might give the villain a moment of ego and make some of their tactical choices a bit poorer to give the PCs a bit of breathing room.
Just last week, the players felt like they were nearing a TPK in the second level of Seven Swords of Sin. When sheer firepower couldn't help them, they came up with an unconventional solution. A successful diplomacy roll helped them and they were able to avoid the rest of the encounter where they were definitely on the losing end with their backs to the wall, but I kept the solution consistent with the logic of the game and the encounter and the organic result made everyone appreciate being able to come out with their lives intact.
One of my favourite sessions of all time ended in a TPK. I was one of the players and it was a futuristic game set on Mars after it had just been colonised. One of the players did or said something strange and one of the other players got the wrong impression and thought they were a traitor. The party split into two groups that began plotting against each other. Both sides were paranoid and cautious so there were a couple of minor incidents before it all culminated in a huge battle out in the open plains of Mars. The battle was for control of a convoy of vehicles run by a powerful NPC group, which by a hilarious coincidence both PC groups ambushed at almost the same time. The final showdown was a gunfight where everyone died except one player and a large number of NPC troops. The remaining player chased by the NPCs took flight out into the Mars wilderness until he ran out of oxygen.
It probably doesn't sound that great in the retelling and I am sure I am missing some of the key details but at the time it was simply epic.
Been involved, as player and as DM, with any number of them. Beyond question, they're the most fun games I've ever been involved in. Maybe that makes me weird, but I'm OK with that.
When my PC faces danger, I want it to really be dangerous. Nothing underlines that need like an occasional total wipeout as a reminder.
If I'm GMing and it's veering to TPK territory, I usually adjust bad guy tactics: Maybe they start gloating, maybe they pause and demand the PCs surrender, maybe they switch to nonlethal attacks to take them prisoner. I also play with hero points or plot twist cards, so the PCs have some "get out of death" actions.
But sometimes a TPK is a fitting end to a campaign, such as if the PCs heroically sacrifice themselves to stop the Big Bad.
Early on as a GM I let a group out of a TPK by changing some enemy tactics and fudging roles, giving the 3 last players enough time to get the 2 downed players out of the encounter area and didn't have the enemies pursue. It felt cheap to me and I came to learn it felt cheap to the players as well. I play the enemies with smart tactics and in they don't let up in less the BBEG had plans for capture. One thing I do is the classic "Are you sure?"
As a player I was recently involved in a home game where du to poor tacticts (bunched up real close in a hallway) an animal companion and ranger died, the Gunslinger died, my Paladin was unconscious for 2 rounds before our oracle got me up and I had a lucky crit on the BBEG to kill himbefore dying. After BBEG was dead the mooks ran, and the GM inserted that a 8th level Oracle could raise one character and the grateful spirit of the elf lord who's tomb we were cleansing raised the other three. Felt so dirty after.
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For me, it depends on how much the players are invested in their characters. If they are generally mking mistakes and the campaign isn't tight then a TPK can be on the cards. But it takes alot for me to kill everyone. I might slot one or two but I prefer to capture, torture, and remove favourite magical items from the characters. That hurts players and sets up some real ambitious revenge situations.
Facial Scars are a fine way to remind someone that they got beat. Each NPC remark really gets on their wick.
Cheers
I've only had one TPK, it was a group of two. They had in their possession a book that three different factions wanted and whom the mentor of one of the characters had been killed over.
This happened at level one (in D&D 5e), two goblins approached them and demanded the book. I figured that the duo of a wizard and bard would easily deal with two goblins either by intimidation, trickery (giving the goblins any sheet of paper would have sufficed), or simply killing them.
The wizard (dragonborn) stepped forward and used her breathweapon, the goblins made the save and she rolled low damage, the bard attacked with her rapier and missed. Then the goblins took down the bard on their turn. Wizard swung her quarterstaff and missed again, only to go down to the goblins.
I had them wake up in jail (accused of the murder of the mentor), and without their gear. The goblins had no reason to murder, they just wanted the book after all. It gave the players another reason to try to solve the murder (now accoponied by a guard to ensure they didn't run) and to recover the book and their gear from the goblins.
I've been involved in a ton of tpks on either side of the screen. I think the possibility of a tpk is crucial - if as a player I get the feeling that the GM won't pull the trigger on a tpk, then I tend to take the game less seriously.
It's hard for me to take pride in my character's accomplishments if I know that even had I failed, character death wasn't a possibility.
That being said, if a GM has to interpret the rules in a really strange way, or invalidates a character's ability without a good reason to get a tpk, then it feels like the character or the entire group was boned.
I think the unfortunate part is that players tend to immediately assume the GM messed up if there is a tpk or sometimes even a single character death. Adventuring is a dangerous career. Character deaths should definitely be a possibility.
You can't win a game where it's impossible to lose. As a GM and as a player it is vital that failure not only a thing, but a very real possibility. Who needs full plate when you have plot armor? Why optimize a character when he's guaranteed to succeed?
The entire point of tabletop for me is the removal of invisible walls, and the element of realism that comes with it. The fact that I can look at the GM, say "Screw this. I'm selling everything I own and buying a ship. You can call me Cap'n Chappy. I'm a pirate now." is half the fun of the game. I wouldn't do so, but the possibility is always there. But if I do, maybe the world lights on fire and everybody dies. There are consequences to my actions. My silly ones (To become Cap'n Chappy) or my very serious, plot-defining ones. Without those consequences, without the reality that yes, my actions could lead to the Game Over screen without the safety of an auto-save function? That is what gives the game weight and meaning.
So yes, TPKs need to be embraced. They are the Game Over screen. A GM needs to be willing to say "Look, you guys did this wrong, I gave the "Are you sure?" when you wanted to do something stupid, but you decided to alert the entire castle and charge in, and you died. Nobody is going to revive you. Game over. Next week we'll be making new characters. Level 1. 100 years in the future after the great Worm King has taken over the kingdoms of men, you will be the refugees in a small hamlet on the outskirts of society, where the King of Worms' reach doesn't extend, but his reach is always larger, and the outskirts are ever getting smaller. Roll 4D6, drop 1."
And when they finally do it, when they finally defeat the King of Worms, using the very sword their last character died with, enchanted by the raw hate he felt for the King of Worms in his last moments, that victory will be worth it.
As a GM and as a player it is vital that failure not only a thing, but a very real possibility.
Nope. That's just one of many possible styles of play.
One thing I've learnt with Pathfinder, is that death isn't Death, as long as the PCs aren't exceptionally poor or low-level. Death is just a 6000+ gp trip to the nearest temple.
Even on a TPK, if you can finesse some clever way for the dead PCs bodies to be recovered, then they can come back from the dead and simply owe favors and gold to their canny rescuers.
Capture by the bad guys is often a good solution, and can introduce interesting plot twists.
Having NPC allies becomes far more important when there is a chance of them recovering TPK victims' bodies.
Intervention of the Gods can always play a part. Death could be the first step towards mythic tiers, for that matter.