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my online game is thinking about buffing the kinetisist. We think its pretty lackluster class and weve seen many people compare it to NPC classes such as warrior or aristocrat, and how they do more than the kinetisist.
Here is what we have so far.
Wild talents: Same
Burn: You gain a pool= to your CON Modifier. at level 5 and every 5 levels after, you add 1/2 Your CON Modifier to the Pool. If you run out of Burn, you may take CON Mod X Level in Non Lethal Damage to add 1 point to the Pool. when your rest for 8 hours, you regain all points back, and damage taken can be healed normally.
Gather Power:You spend a Move action to gain 1 temporary Burn Point. at 7th, you may spend a swift to add 1, or a Move to add 2. At 15, you may spend a Swift to add 1, or a Move to add three.
Blasts: You may full attack with the blasts, but they cannot be affected by anything that grants you more attacks in a round(Haste, TWF, Rapid SHot, Ect)
Infusions:Dc is modified by con, instead of Dex. you can only use an infusion once a round.
Elemental Overflow: 1 point from your pool to add whats left in your pools to attack, and double it to damage, Max of +1 attack/+2 Damage per 3 levels. you cannot use gather power on this.
Metakanesis: Same
Internal Buffer: You gain a bonus combat feat, at the indicated levels. each time you use the feat, you must use 1 burn. Each time you gain a new combat feat, the one before it becomes free to use.
Infusion Specialist: Choose 1 infusion at the indicated levels. the cost to use the infusion is 1 less(Minimum 0). You cannot choose the same infusion more than once.
SuperCharge: You gain a infusion or a wild talent not from your school. it costs 1 more burn to use, and cannot be reduced by any effect that reduces burn.
Omnikinesis: Burn in this way cannot be returned when you rest. you must wait 24 hours to regain.
Feat: Extra Burn Pool: You gain 1/4 your level in Kinetisist(minimum+2) to your burn pool. this is a static bonus and raising your level, does not increase the amount of extra burn pool you have(a 20th level kinetist will still be getting the +2 Burn points from this feat he took at 7th level)
You may take this feat multiple times. it Stacks.
1. I think this is more for homebrew/suggestion forum.
2. Eh...I can run with a level 6 earth kineticist that is getting +3 attack and +5 damage, all while rocking DR 6. All with a rather nice standard action attack (which has value, since it means you can move; also, DR can be a joke with your one big hit). I can pull off some basic infusions for free at that level too (such as entangled).
And I feel like the blasts do fine with daamge, since they have something along the lines of a full attack routine via blast+gather power (standard+move action)It is all about what you can do at your level without getting burn (since that is more for nova).
1-4: just simple blast.
5-10: Gather power and add on empowered for x1.5 damage (working under the assumption that iteratives are not as valuable as the first attack, due to lower aim, so this is comparable)
11-15: Super charged gather to do composite blast: x2 damage of basic blast
16-20: Gather power and do both empowered and composite: x3 damage of basic blast.
That all makes it somewhat similar to regular attacks. But if I really wanted to give it more damage...I would just turn flurry of blasts into something like the elemental annhilator's blast- let it work like regular archery, with multiple uses of stat damage in return for giving back all those damage dice. Plus, while it would suck on DR, but it wouldn't suffer concealment.
I think ultimately the best way to buff the kineticist is just to print some magic items that are of particular interest to the kineticist, since as it stands the class has basically three things going for it-
1) You can blast all day if you want to (this will matter more in some games than others)
2) You can basically dump half your stats.
3) You have very little need for magic items besides AC items and stat boosters.
Just print something like "Gloves that reduce burn costs" or "an amulet that boosts your blast damage" and you make the class a whole lot better. The real problem with the class is just that it doesn't really do much damage at the mid-levels.
In combat they do just fine.
They are near worthless out of combat.
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In combat they do just fine.
They are near worthless out of combat.
As compared to what?
They've got 4+Int skills per level and a decent skill list. That puts them on par with a Barbarian, Cavalier, or Swashbuckler and, frankly, with most non Int based classes in terms of number and effectiveness of skills. They're not super good at being the party face, but then most non-Cha characters aren't, and they are behind real skill characters like Bards, Investigators, or Inquisitors...but that doesn't make them useless, and still leaves them a step up on Paladins, Clerics, and the like.
And if comparing their 'magic' to spontaneous casters, they actually look okay, with a variety of utility options available. They're not anywhere near as versatile as prepared casters, but then who is?
In short, they do just fine outside of combat. Not superbly, but just fine.
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In my opinion, you just buff the Kineticist with content.
It's really as simple as that. All other classes that are "new" can at least steal things from the classes that have been in the game since 3.5e. The Kineticist can't and lacks feats, items, and so on. If you give them those purple feats and items they will grow. It's just a matter of how long that takes in addition to working out the optimal combos.
Mathing out the damage you do with Kineticist can quickly add up. For example, it's easy to forget elemental overload is a rough 2/3rds level to damage. By accepting Burn your DPS can really skyrocket to the point where you can just mawl an encounter single-handedly. True, you nearly die doing it, but it is doable.
Kinny are perfectly fine. The only change I suggest is having the buffer be full at the start of the day instead of having to fill it the night before, but that's just a QOL change more than anything.
In combat they do just fine.
They are near worthless out of combat.
As compared to what?
They've got 4+Int skills per level and a decent skill list. That puts them on par with a Barbarian, Cavalier, or Swashbuckler and, frankly, with most non Int based classes in terms of number and effectiveness of skills. They're not super good at being the party face, but then most non-Cha characters aren't, and they are behind real skill characters like Bards, Investigators, or Inquisitors...but that doesn't make them useless, and still leaves them a step up on Paladins, Clerics, and the like.
And if comparing their 'magic' to spontaneous casters, they actually look okay, with a variety of utility options available. They're not anywhere near as versatile as prepared casters, but then who is?
In short, they do just fine outside of combat. Not superbly, but just fine.
They have 8 class skills, and that is a record low. Their primary stats adds to zero skills.
If you spend moderate resources they become OK out of combat. Their abilities do not create much versatility and again comes at a direct cost to combat.
In pfs I played with about 7 different ones, and not one of them could do more than assist another person on their checks. They have tools for everything in combat, but out of it they are meh.
In combat they do just fine.
They are near worthless out of combat.
Hrm? The Telekineticist joins the parade of "people who can easily be better rogues than the rogue". You're not going to be a talker, but you can disarm traps, unlock doors, and pick pockets from across the room while invisible. Obviously "fire" isn't as subtle, but you don't have to choose fire. Higher level earth kineticists can move rocks around to make trenches, walls, pillars and castles all day without getting tired, and if that's not useful out of combat you're not creative enough.
Also, you don't have 8 class skills, there are 8 class skills that are class skills for every element, and you get 2 additional class skills granted to you by your element, for a total of 10, the same as the fighter or the paladin. Also, while Con doesn't add to any skills, you really have two primary skills since CON is used to fund burn, pass concentration checks, and stay alive Dex is used to hit, determine DCs, and stay alive and "missing in combat" is a pretty big issue for the kineticist to deal with (since they're a 3/4 BAB class without access to enhancement bonuses or feats that help other than weapon focus).
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I think the Kineticist can do fine in combat, not as much damage as some but with a bit more utility to make up for it.
Aether - I think we have heard a bunch about this.
Air - Can actually have some decent buffs,especially with free haste for the rest of the party. Air/Life Bubble and Flight make it excellent for a number of roles.
Earth - Excellent Scout, good combat, Tremorsense at 6th lets you check rooms before you even go inside, Earthglide can make you an awesome scout and even provide some defensive options.
Fire - Great combatant especially with early AoEs(Burning Hands at will, lvl 1, Flame Strike at level 7) plus Draining and Dispelling and Blinding infusions can help overcome Fire immunity.
Water - Good combat, decent tank. Dex based, free shield plus good damage and ranged option. Mirage for constant blur is great. Chilling/Staggering options plus Cold Snap (just get endure elements for the party)
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Wow, those are some intense buffs you've got listed there in the OP.
I'd agree with Mort here, right now the class is lacking both options and more especially magic items. There's really like 2 items that specifically help them and some incidental ones that are more general purpose.
I tried to remedy some of that with Kineticist of Porphyra, and the next thing I put out is going to have more magical items.
For general use, kineticist vary in usefulness, as things like earth mover and such really help in non combat situations too, but pyrokineticist are really singular in their combat focus.
Right now I think we need to see what'll come out officially, although even as it stands, I'd place kineticist from mid T4 to low T3 (with most archetypes being low T4 to high T5).
Actually, with the earth stuff that can move earth and stone...you might be able to remove the need for disable device checks and puzzles and entirely in some circumstances.
Steel door build into the wall of a cave? Don't fiddle with its lock, just create your own door.
Or just blast it. Cause you can spam blasts, and they are one huge hit which can easily get through dr and hardness. If you are a physical blast kineticist (particularly one like earth, where it is hard to say the attack would be 'ineffective'), then a door is just a matter of time. Not the most subtle approach, mind you, but effective.
Did nobody mention the fact that those few skills that the Kineticist gets are easily THE BEST SKILLS IN THE GAME? Not to mention Acrobatics, Fly, Escape Artist, and Stealth all rely on one of the kineticist's primary attributes!
The kineticist is strong; strong to the point where I have GMs who are beginning to ban them in their games. The ONLY thing it is lacking is additional support material. Give it a few books and it will be amazing.
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They have 8 class skills, and that is a record low. Their primary stats adds to zero skills.
Uh...they have 10 Class skills. Tied with several other classes. Remember that your element gives you a couple.
And their primary stats are Dex and Con. Dex adds to 7 skills, actually, the same as Charisma. Wis, meanwhile, only adds to 5 and Str to only 2. Only Int adds to more (a full 13). And unlike Cha (which has Perform) or Wis (which has Profession) or even Int (which has several less than great Knowledge Skills plus Craft and Appraise)...basically all the Dex skills are really good. Now, admittedly, Con adds to none...but they're still better off than, say, a Str/Wis character on the skill front.
If you spend moderate resources they become OK out of combat. Their abilities do not create much versatility and again comes at a direct cost to combat.
Eh. As Taenia notes, pretty much every element but Fire has some really good non-combat options available.
In pfs I played with about 7 different ones, and not one of them could do more than assist another person on their checks. They have tools for everything in combat, but out of it they are meh.
This is true if you focus entirely on combat when creating them. It's true of many character classes when you do that.
They're not super good at being the party face, but then most non-Cha characters aren't
Overwhelming Soul archetype is Cha based and gets Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills. It mostly does away with burn which might be a bonus for some players.
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They're not super good at being the party face, but then most non-Cha characters aren'tOverwhelming Soul archetype is Cha based and gets Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills. It mostly does away with burn which might be a bonus for some players.
It also trades away anything that has to do with burn buffing the character as well as giving a capstone that can't even function. The massive loss of Con casting drops their fort save a ton too. As of the moment, Overwhelming Soul is not a good option.
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It also trades away anything that has to do with burn buffing the character as well as giving a capstone that can't even function. The massive loss of Con casting drops their fort save a ton too. As of the moment, Overwhelming Soul is not a good option.They're not super good at being the party face, but then most non-Cha characters aren'tOverwhelming Soul archetype is Cha based and gets Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills. It mostly does away with burn which might be a bonus for some players.
The overwhelming soul thing is mostly an option for those who cannot actively use con for their kineticist abilities (like constructs or the undead), both of which are less inconvinienced by negative levels generated by the effect.
Now should paizo give option that help out the overwhelming soul kineticists... yes. will they... that's still yet to be seen.
Think of it like the fighter. Without things like the Gloves of Duelling, Advanced Weapon Training, a bunch of good feats, and other stuff that has been added to the game since the initial book that laid out the fighter class, the fighter would be significantly weaker.
The Kineticist is kind of in the same spot, since it doesn't have synergistic magic items, additional class features, or feats yet. The problem with making them is that there's not a lot you can create that will benefit both the Kineticist and other classes as well, and when it comes to limited column space in printed materials you're not going to include stuff that helps only one class.
But my number one suggestion would be a magic item that is like the Amulet of Mighty Fists, but for blasts, since the Kineticist lacks any sort of way to enhance damage or accuracy with magic items short of just "stat boosting magic items", and the accuracy thing is big since you're a 3/4 BAB class so you're already giving up +5 to hit over the course of 20 levels versus a full BAB class, you're also giving up +5 to hit in terms of enhancement bonuses versus pretty much any class (since they use weapons or can use the amulet of mighty fists.)
Heck, just copy/paste the amulet of mighty fists. "4,000 -100,000 gp, This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on simple and composite kinetic blasts."
I just threw it in for the people who prefer Cha and dislike burn. So far I hadn't the chance to actually play any kineticist, hence I don't feel like judging the class or its archetypes.
The capstone might need a small houserule - like allowing burn for it, replacing it with a negative level till rest or with Cha drain till rest.
In combat they do just fine.
They are near worthless out of combat.
I mean, you could try and argue that a class with little reason to invest in anything other than dexterity and has access to the best movement in the game isn't an exceptional scout
I mean, you'd be wrong, but you can try to argue that
(seriously, you thought wizards made rogue scouts look silly, the kineticist is laughing while she decides if she wants to fly overhead or just walk through all the dungeon walls)
In combat they do just fine.
They are near worthless out of combat.
I mean, you could try and argue that a class with little reason to invest in anything other than dexterity and has access to the best movement in the game isn't an exceptional scout
I mean, you'd be wrong, but you can try to argue that
(seriously, you thought wizards made rogue scouts look silly, the kineticist is laughing while she decides if she wants to fly overhead or just walk through all the dungeon walls)
Speaking of, Delayed Blast is much, much better than it has been given credit for.
I know a lot of people want a stealth gather power, but Delayed Blast is that only strictly better. The initiation with it blows the pants off of a turn of stealth gather power.
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Honestly the Kineticist is the reason I banned the occult book. Being able to mitigate burn, using substantial burn and spells that deal more damage than sorc/wizard spells just drove me nuts. When looking it over we realized it's a mono-statistic class capable of single handedly knocking out monsters of a CR 2 higher than their level. Or so the conclusion was drawn when we were reading the book. That was regrettable considering the insane level of Sniper Slayers going mono-dex and how they could do just about the same.
...Wait, you think the kineticist doing more damage than a wizard is a problem? Wizard damage is atrocious, their power is wrapped up in their versatility and utility.
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You mean house rules paizo proposed? Paizo doesn't really follow their house rules a lot either.
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The kineticist's main things is throwing elemental orbs at people, so I would expect her to be pretty darn good at that. Hopefully better at it than the guy who's main thing is playing with the very fabric of reality like it's a child's toy.
Kineticists are in a relatively nice spot, imo. At most, they just need a few QOL fixes and minor bookkeeping changes to make them cleaner. Here are some of what I would go for.
1) Internal Buffer: You get the 1/2/3 points to buffer a burn after a full rest, period. No need to burn into it. All other rules are the same (only 1 buffer point used at a time, etc)
2) All kinnys get their infusion talent at 7 and 15. Those who stick with same element at 7 and/or 15 get bonuses to that element.
3) (Maybes) Metakinetic Master and/or Composite Specialization come a level or two earlier.
4) More magic items:
* An "Amulet of Mighty Blasts" that has already been talked about.
* A "metakinetic rod" that can be held during a gather power
* An item that gives "internal buffer" charges and recharges every morning. A lesser/normal/greater that gives 1/2/3 charges and priced accordingly.
When you say "infusion talent" what exactly do you mean?
I think your ideas for buffer, both the class feature and the item, are too strong. An Amulet of Moghty Blasts would be great if it only allowed weapon enhance nets like seeking or viscious, but not +1-5. Or, better yet, allowed you to use infusion wild talents you normally couldn't with your blast of choice.
I would be fine with an item that adds a +1 to +5 bonus to hit with your kinetic blast/blade/whip.
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Just give them a resource pool instead of using those awful Burn mechanics... Base it on Wis if you think they're too SAD.
Burn ruins the class and Overwhelming Soul is such a horrible trap, it might as well be a giant middle finger to everyone who wants a non-Burn Kineticist.
Sorry Lemmy, but the Kineticist exists for people who don't like the resource pool system. There are plenty of other classes to play if you can't handle burn management.
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Sorry Lemmy, but the Kineticist exists for people who don't like the resource pool system. There are plenty of other classes to play if you can't handle burn management.
Burn is still a resource... Only it's a terribly designed mechanic.
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You can believe that all you want. You'd be wrong, but you can believe it.
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Burn is still a resource pool... Only it's one that kills you. And makes no sense. And is an unnecessary balancing factor with poorly implemented mechanics.
I still think a pool of points based on your con mod would have been nice.
Actually, burn can save your life. I've seen enemies time and again ignore a character that fell in combat. Kinitecists will fall before going into the the negatives, meaning they won't bleed out or anything. It's a lot easier to get back in the fight too.
When you say "infusion talent" what exactly do you mean?
I think your ideas for buffer, both the class feature and the item, are too strong. An Amulet of Moghty Blasts would be great if it only allowed weapon enhance nets like seeking or viscious, but not +1-5. Or, better yet, allowed you to use infusion wild talents you normally couldn't with your blast of choice.
At levels 7 and 15 is when Kinnys get their expanded element. If they don't pick their starting element then they don't get any wild talents. They are both on odd levels, which is when they normally get an infusion wild talent but they do not at these two levels if they expand outwards. Those two levels go against a pattern that is otherwise followed fully. It also disrupts the infusions picked while leveling because it denies a level 3 infusion until level 9, when a lvl 4 infusion is available. It's disruptive to the leveling up and infusion progression.
The buffer item may be too strong but I don't think the class feature change is particularly strong. It's the exact same thing except you just don't have to invest into it anymore, which means you aren't burning out during the day. I'd also go with an either/or situation for those.
I still think a pool of points based on your con mod would have been nice.
That would be too strong IMO. CON is one of the best stats out there and to keep it as your casting stat and then remove the hindrance that is burn would make them OP and insanely tanky. The way it is now, a kinny that is at or near max burn is facing wizard/sorcerer level squishy-ness. This is the trade off for going deep burn.
Sorry Lemmy, but the Kineticist exists for people who don't like the resource pool system. There are plenty of other classes to play if you can't handle burn management.Burn is still a resource... Only it's a terribly designed mechanic.
Burn is still a resource pool... Only it's one that kills you. And makes no sense. And is an unnecessary balancing factor with poorly implemented mechanics.
Could you please provide some evidence or support that backs up your claim? Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. I've played plenty of kineticists since their release and it's a perfectly fine mechanic.
Speaking of, Delayed Blast is much, much better than it has been given credit for.
How so? What am I missing?
Probably for laying it as a trap, just like Delaybed Blast Fireball.
There's being kind and playing the enemies as actually being smart. The guy that fell isn't a threat now. The guys still swinging swords and slinging spells? Should probably focus on them.
Probably for laying it as a trap, just like Delaybed Blast Fireball.
Pretty much yes.
Think of it this way, it's a few turns during which you can literally just get up and leave. Peace, see you later. It does a decent amount of damage for initiation, and can draw the opponent away. It's pretty much just for stealthy Kineticists, but it's nice.
EDIT: You can also use it for next turn pseudo-pounce with Ride the Blast.
Yeah, but don't you have to choose the starting point AND the target at the time you set it up? If the target moves even one square, you've pretty much wasted it.
Wrong! If the target moves 4 squares then you have wasted it. You appear adjacent to the blast's target and thus threaten the target, adjacent squares, and squares adjacent to the adjacent squares. Then you can five foot step.