I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a while just as a fun thing to think about, and wondered what everyone else could come up with.
The premise is the fact that the antipaladin code for Norgorber includes such things as encouraging ignorance in others, never taking credit, working in the shadows, and never fighting fair. Which to me means that one would never join a party and say 'Oh yeah, I'm an antipaladin of Norgorber.' They'd lie. They'd hide their abilities. They'd pretend to be something else.
So how would they do it? What feats, skills, spells, multiclassing, etc, do you think an antipaladin of Norgorber could use to make themselves appear to be something else to their party? What would they appear to be? A rogue or a bard? A fighter or bloodrager? A magus? Warpriest or Inquisitor would be too easy, and would require them to reveal they're deity, which would ruin the point. Unless they could hide that too...
So what does everyone think? if you were playing an antipaladin of Norgorber, how would you hide what you are?
Pretending to be a Bloodrager is pretty easy. Just scream in the orphan's face before you stab them.
Fighter. The spells are hard to hide, but at least you can swing a sword...
Or pretend to be a multiclass Cleric/Fighter of no particular deity.
Yes, but how? Mechanically, how would you build the character in order to appear to be something else? What feats would you take, what dips would you make into other classes, etc.
Now I'm thinking that I wish there was an archetype of antipaladin that let you appear/pretend to be a paladin.
The dashing white knight is actually a dastardly blackguard(not the class).
You could just go single class Antipaladin... very few things are mechanically different from playing a multiclass cleric-fighter.
Pretty much just Smite would reveal that weren't what you claimed to be.
Of course, other players would meta-game and accuse you of being a liar... I've found that trying to conceal anything from players is basically futile.
There's nothing mechanical about it. If anyone ever asks about where your powers come from, you just use your Charisma focus and max ranks in Bluff (which you should have because you follow Norgorber, for God's sake) to tell them you're a Bloodrager.
"I'm a sin against all that is natural... on my mother's side."
If they've seen a Bloodrager before and he didn't do the stuff you do, ask them why they assume all Bloodragers are related. They have to be metagaming to actually tell the difference at that point.
The inquisitor line is especially good if you want to not only pretend to not be an antipaladin, but also to pretend to not be evil, as you would be able to even disguise your alignment from magical abilities.
So bloodrager and fighter would be easy, and good servents of Father Skinsaw. Rawr, I hit stuff. But that's a bit too easy, and a little boring.
But how about a rogue or a bard for the Grey Master, or an alchemist for Blackfingers, or maybe a magus for the Reaper of Reputation. Thinking further outside the box to see what interesting concepts can be found.
My recommendation is the Insinuator Antipaladin. You work for Norgy but trick other entities into giving you power. Your auras boost allies and hurt enemies. You detect as different alignments daily. You can smite a wide variety of things, and heal yourself in combat. As an added bit of confusion, you can perma-summon (with options to renew each day) an elemental, which seems more Druid than anything. Any players unfamiliar with the archetype will have a hard time placing your class exactly.
I think the fluff of the Insinuator is that they don't follow a deity. They're a do-it-for-yourself type. Which is why the make bargains with many different outsiders to fuel their power.
It's kind of like the Ur-Priest.
I think the fluff of the Insinuator is that they don't follow a deity. They're a do-it-for-yourself type. Which is why the make bargains with many different outsiders to fuel their power.
It's kind of like the Ur-Priest.
Sure, that's the fluff. But if there's a deity that would approve of you going out and getting powers from others instead, it's Norgorber. That's some dedicated subterfuge.
Sure, that's the fluff. But if there's a deity that would approve of you going out and getting powers from others instead, it's Norgorber. That's some dedicated subterfuge.I think the fluff of the Insinuator is that they don't follow a deity. They're a do-it-for-yourself type. Which is why the make bargains with many different outsiders to fuel their power.
It's kind of like the Ur-Priest.
It's even in their code! "I will take every advantage I can. No tool is beneath me."
If you put that much effort into hiding your identity, the most fitting aspect of Norgorber is probably Reaper of Reputation. Both your behavior and the aspect are a lot about being secretive, up to telling lies and even murdering to keep secrets safe. You could even slay a dozen Norgorber cultists because they failed (or are currently failing) in protecting his secrets...
Maybe you could pretend you are a cleric of Pharasma. Some of them are focused on death and fate - you deliver the first and pretend to work in favor of the second. You will have to show hate for undead and pretend help for pregnant women - but the latter might turn out bad for them. If some fellow adventurer demands healing or restoration, tell him you won't stand in the way of fate - if he is supposed to recover, it will happen. Conceal your antipaladin powers as domain powers, cleric spells or item powers. Carry a holy symbol of Pharasma - Norgorber will smile at you for your ruse. The goddess won't, but that's up to the GM...
I guess that's fair, but the fluff of the class just strikes me as one who would not supplicate themselves to a deity. Even one that had similar views and interests.
I feel like an Insinuator might view Norgorber as a kindred spirit rather than a being to worship. But that's just my personal view on it.
There's nothing mechanical about it. If anyone ever asks about where your powers come from, you just use your Charisma focus and max ranks in Bluff (which you should have because you follow Norgorber, for God's sake) to tell them you're a Bloodrager.
"I'm a sin against all that is natural... on my mother's side."
If they've seen a Bloodrager before and he didn't do the stuff you do, ask them why they assume all Bloodragers are related. They have to be metagaming to actually tell the difference at that point.
Bloodrager is a terrible cover for an Antipaladin.
The moment you use a spell it would be apparent that you are lying to anyone with Spellcraft.
I think first you should clarify if you are trying to deceive the other characters or the other players.
If it is the other players, then I have no advice except that I think it is a pretty bad idea.
If it is the other characters, then you need more than it being 'I'm not an anti-paladin of Norgorber.' Or rather, deceiving them as to that is trivial but probably useless. Pretending to be an anti-Paladin of someone else or a cleric of Norgorber would both accomplish that limited goal but probably wouldn't achieve anything meaningful as far as being trusted. So to advise further, you would have to figure out what you wanted them to believe you are, with some things being easier than others.
Pretending to be a Paladin of Serenrae instead of an anti-Paladin of Norgorber is going to be a lot more difficult than pretending to be a crazed PTSD suffering mercenary bloodrager instead of an anti-paladin of Norgorber as an example, and the two would have different requirements to successfully pull off.
Oh I wouldn't suggest trying to fool other players. In my experience it's always more fun to have characters steeped in lies if the other players know about it, and try to find out in character. After all, if you're trying to fool the players too, then how do you roll opposed bluff checks against them without them figuring it out anyway?
And I agree, there needs to be more than just saying you're not an anti-paladin. That's why I made the thread, to see what interesting cover stories people could come up with and how they would build the characters to pull it off.
The moment you use a spell it would be apparent that you are lying to anyone with Spellcraft.
With spellcraft they recognize that you did cast a certain spell, but in-universe there isn't such thing as "the bloodrager spell list" and there are archetypes that expand on that list (a recent one adds bard spells of choice) or the bloodline themselves
in-universe there isn't such thing as "the bloodrager spell list"
I think this is questionable. There is absolutely a known difference between arcane and divine. Going deeper, it is hard to know for sure, but spellcraft is the knowledge of how magical spells work, and presumably what sort of ways (arcane knowledge like a wizard, divine blessing like a cleric or innate magic like a sorcerer (or bloodrager) one could access those spells.
It wouldn't be definitive for a character anymore than it would for a player, but certainly the idea that spellcraft can let you know that a given spell is commonly available to these sorts of people isn't anymore crazy than the idea that knowledge: nature lets you know the strengths and weaknesses of a fey creature.
The system models the physical rules of the universe, there is no reason to assume that characters inside that universe can't figure out the 'rules' given the appropriate skills (they might use different terminology, but the basic concepts would have to be understood.)
Or you might be an Oracle with a bizarre custom mystery, or any number of other things that armored spell fighty guys can be besides an Antipaladin of Norgorber.
Seriously, it's not as simple as it may have been back in the day to identify a class. Anyone can be anything, and you don't have to try too hard to make identifying what you are effectively impossible in-universe.
Or you might be an Oracle with a bizarre custom mystery, or any number of other things that armored spell fighty guys can be besides an Antipaladin of Norgorber.
Seriously, it's not as simple as it may have been back in the day to identify a class. Anyone can be anything, and you don't have to try too hard to make identifying what you are effectively impossible in-universe.
At the same time, what makes an Antipaladin an Antipaladin? There is no point in hiding that you are an antipaladin in character because that means very little outside of meta connotations. Now, trying to hide that you are an evil divine caster? Sure. But I think that is pretty easy to identify if you plan on using all of your class features.
If you are just trying to hide the fact you are a Norgorber worshiper? Doable, but not that impressive or secretive which defeats the purpose.