Variant versions of Weapon Training are no longer counted as Weapon Training.
The bonus would no longer apply.
Advanced Weapon Training and Weapon Training are two different things. The gloves modify one but not the other.
If your GM wants to houserule otherwise, ask him/her, but as written, the gloves ONLY work on the basic Weapon Training.
I would assume for Trained Grace you would double your innate bonus then multiply by 2. But I only assume this because it is the weaker interpretation and we have no guidance. If you use the weaker interpretation you wont be disappointed by the "official answer" if there is ever one.
As for Weapon Specialist....based on the very specific wording of Gloves of Dueling, it doesn't seem like it actually increases your Weapon Training bonus, it just happens to enhance it when you meet the appropriate conditions. Which makes me more convinced on my first point. And my answer to the second basically the same, you just use your base weapon training bonus.
Honestly, it's not particularly clear how it should interact so I suggest using the conservative interpretation.
Variant versions of Weapon Training are no longer counted as Weapon Training.
The bonus would no longer apply.
Advanced Weapon Training and Weapon Training are two different things. The gloves modify one but not the other.
If your GM wants to houserule otherwise, ask him/her, but as written, the gloves ONLY work on the basic Weapon Training.
I don't think that's the point. The fighter has weapon training at level 4. At level 9, the fighter can pick up advanced weapon training. Some of the advanced weapon training abilities reference your weapon training bonus, which you still have from level 4.
So, does the bonus from the gloves apply to your "weapon training" bonus before or after that bonus is doubled by the advanced weapon training bonus?
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Variant versions of Weapon Training are no longer counted as Weapon Training.
The bonus would no longer apply.
Advanced Weapon Training and Weapon Training are two different things. The gloves modify one but not the other.
If your GM wants to houserule otherwise, ask him/her, but as written, the gloves ONLY work on the basic Weapon Training.
I don't think that's the point. The fighter has weapon training at level 4. At level 9, the fighter can pick up advanced weapon training. Some of the advanced weapon training abilities reference your weapon training bonus, which you still have from level 4.
So, does the bonus from the gloves apply to your "weapon training" bonus before or after that bonus is doubled by the advanced weapon training bonus?
When in doubt, the least favorable result is usually the correct one.
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I'm just necroing this thread as the topic is similar to my question.
How does Gloves of Dueling works when it comes to the effects granted by Advanced Weapon Training?
*Advanced Weapon Training could be taken as early as lv 5 via the Advanced Weapon Training feat.
Advanced Weapon Training:
Highly skilled and experienced fighters can gain
advanced weapon training, learning techniques and
applications of the weapon training class feature that
give them special benefits in exchange for specializing in
a smaller number of fighter weapon groups. Beginning
at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter
weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced
weapon training option for one fighter weapon group
that he previously selected with the weapon training
class feature. The fighter’s weapon training bonus still
increases for weapons from all fighter weapon groups he
previously selected with weapon training. Some advance
weapon training options can be selected only if the
fighter meets the option’s prerequisites.Advanced weapon training options function only when
the fighter is wielding a weapon from the associated
group, unless otherwise noted, and use his weapon
training bonus for the associated weapon group. Any
bonuses on attack rolls and damage rolls granted by
advanced weapon training apply only on attack rolls and
damage rolls from weapons in the associated group. A
fighter with an archetype that replaces weapon training
cannot select advanced weapon training options.
Gloves of Dueling
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 236
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot hands; Price 15,000 gp; Weight —
Description
These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
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When I designed the AWTs, I did so with the assumption that the gloves increased the weapon training bonus, and that modified bonus interfaces with the advanced weapon trainings. For example, if you had the gloves at 9th leveland had trained grace, you'd add +2 to your weapon training bonus which would then be multiplied to +8 for damage rolls.
This might not be Paizo's stance now that ADTs have gone through development, but in my opinion, we're talking about small bonuses to a class that has been historically weak.
Talk to your GM and if Paizo releases an official statement, use what they say. (And I probably shouldn't be considered a reputable source for the purpose of PFS and the like since I'm not a golem.)
Interesting, so you wrote it with the assumption that it should increase it.
Variant versions of Weapon Training are no longer counted as Weapon Training.
The bonus would no longer apply.
Advanced Weapon Training and Weapon Training are two different things. The gloves modify one but not the other.
If your GM wants to houserule otherwise, ask him/her, but as written, the gloves ONLY work on the basic Weapon Training.
Variant versions of weapon training are still counted as weapon training if they work like it. This was a FAQ on the CRB back in July 2013. This is just a small section of that FAQ. You can go to the actual FAQ listings to read the entire thing but
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
The Gloves specifically call out that they increase the bonus from Weapon Training. I suppose one could simply be asking for clarification, but it really needn't be necessary.
For the purposes of AWT, you should be treating the bonus from Weapon Training as 2 higher, a nice buff for fighters post 5th level who take the feat to gain access.
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(Necroing the thread as the designer was in it, and the specific questions I have below do not appear to have been asked elsewhere on the forums.)
When I designed the AWTs, I did so with the assumption that the gloves increased the weapon training bonus, and that modified bonus interfaces with the advanced weapon trainings. For example, if you had the gloves at 9th leveland had trained grace, you'd add +2 to your weapon training bonus which would then be multiplied to +8 for damage rolls.
This might not be Paizo's stance now that ADTs have gone through development, but in my opinion, we're talking about small bonuses to a class that has been historically weak.
A question regarding the AWT option Weapon Specialist (ex): The fighter selects a number of combat feats that he knows equal to his weapon training bonus with the associated weapon group. The selected feats must be ones that require the fighter to choose a type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization), and the fighter must have chosen weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group. The fighter is treated as having the selected feats for all the weapons in the associated weapon group that are legal choices for those feats. The fighter is also considered to have those feats with these weapons for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.
1) I note that the text here does not contain wording to the effect that the desired feats, once chosen, cannot be changed. -- Was it your intention with Weapon Specialist that the fighter be able to freely choose at any time which of his feats were applicable?
2) Is the fighter required to maintain prerequisites with the chosen feats when selecting one to apply via Weapon Specialist to another weapon in the WT group?
For example, our stalwart hero Shuriken-chuckin' Sam is placed under arrest and his favorite weapons and Gloves of Dueling are confiscated. With a now-reduced and meager WT+1 bonus to his "Thrown" group, Sam wants to select his feat Close Quarters Combat Thrower (sans its Weapon Focus prerequisite, currently tied to shurikens) to apply to whatever he finds in the prison commissary.
2) is easy, there is no clause permitting you to ignore prerequisites, if you do not have the prerequisite you cannot use the dependent feat.
1) I am less confident on, but I would treat the feats chosen as unchangable. Certainly in the CRB there is nothing to tell you you cannot change feats gained either by level or by class, but I don't know anyone who would allow you to change those, and the fighter tells you that you can change the bonus feat gained at certain levels. So from that I would generally expect a rule to tell me when I can change feats and otherwise assume they are unchangeable.
A question regarding the AWT option Weapon Specialist (ex): The fighter selects a number of combat feats that he knows equal to his weapon training bonus with the associated weapon group. The selected feats must be ones that require the fighter to choose a type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization), and the fighter must have chosen weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group. The fighter is treated as having the selected feats for all the weapons in the associated weapon group that are legal choices for those feats. The fighter is also considered to have those feats with these weapons for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.
Assuming that your natural weapon training bonus is +2 for being a 9th-level fighter, having picked the Thrown group. The increase to previous groups is not dependent upon taking a new group; that is a separate sentence, and a separate effect. With the Gloves of Dueling, your Thrown bonus is considered to be +4.
Every four levels thereafter (9th*, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each.
...
Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.
If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
So, for using Thrown weapons, while using the Gloves, you would have four feats that you can pick. If you take the Gloves off, or they are broken or taken, you're back to your base of two feats. In fact, you would only be considered to have those bonus feats while wielding a Thrown weapon, because of how the Gloves are worded. Having one on your person would not be enough, it would need to be in-hand for the additional bonus and feats to count.
1) I note that the text here does not contain wording to the effect that the desired feats, once chosen, cannot be changed. -- Was it your intention with Weapon Specialist that the fighter be able to freely choose at any time which of his feats were applicable?
The feats selected you would need to specify, in order, and once you've picked them, they don't change. So taking the Gloves off and putting them back on doesn't let you pick different feats for the additional +2 they offer. It isn't specifically stated with advanced weapon training, but abilities that grant feats where that list may grow or shrink (such as based on an ability score bonus) have always worked this way.
If you pay to retrain the Weapon Specialist choice, then you could choose new feats.
2) Is the fighter required to maintain prerequisites with the chosen feats when selecting one to apply via Weapon Specialist to another weapon in the WT group?
You are always required to maintain prerequisites, unless the specific ability says you're allowed to ignore them. The wording is a tad strange, but Weapon Specialist is saying that you still need the prerequisites for every feat you pick.
The feats apply to all weapons in the group that are "legal choices for those feats." Thus, to apply Weapon Focus to an entire group, you must be proficient with every weapon in that group; any weapon you aren't proficient with does not get the benefit, though the rest of the weapon group does.
Furthermore, these feats must be feats you already have. If you retrain them away, you lose the benefit, because you no longer have the feat to apply to the weapon group.
For example, if you have Exotic Proficiency (Shuriken), and pick that as a feat to apply to the entire Thrown group, that gets you proficiency with the Aklys, Bolas, Boomerang, Halfling Sling Staff (assuming you aren't a halfling), Harpoon, Lasso, Kestros, Net, etc, etc, etc. This would allow you to then take Weapon Focus and apply it to every weapon in the group, because you would be proficient with them all.
For example, our stalwart hero Shuriken-chuckin' Sam is placed under arrest and his favorite weapons and Gloves of Dueling are confiscated. With a now-reduced and meager WT+2 bonus to his "Thrown" group, Sam wants to select his feat Close-Quarters Thrower (sans its Weapon Focus prerequisite, currently tied to shurikens) to apply to whatever he finds in the prison commissary.
FTFY
You could pick Close-Quarters Thrower as one of your feats to apply to the whole group, but it would only apply to those you have Weapon Focus with, and by extension, are proficient with. You would also need to have chosen that feat ahead of time; you wouldn't be able to change it just because your modifier went down. Thus, Weapon Focus would need to be your pick for +1, then Close-Quarters Thrower at +2, followed by whatever you like for +3 and +4 (personally speaking, I would go for Weapon Specialization at +3 and Greater Weapon Focus at +4).
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While we are on the topic, how long does it take to activate AWT abilities? For instance....
Warrior Spirit (Su) The fighter can forge a spiritual bond with a weapon that belongs to the associated weapon group, allowing him to unlock the weapon’s potential. Each day, he designates one such weapon and gains a number of points of spiritual energy equal to 1 + his weapon training bonus. While wielding this weapon, he can spend 1 point of spiritual energy to grant the weapon an enhancement bonus equal to his weapon training bonus.
Assuming he does his "designation" in the morning after rolling out of bed, how long is the action of "spend(ing) 1 point of spiritual energy" take?
-- If it's a freebie or a swift-action (like a monk spending Ki), it's none too shabby.
-- If it's a standard action, then it's yet another trap wasting time in combat.
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I can field this one. As a (Su) ability, Warrior Spirit requires a standard action unless otherwise specified (which it does not).
I won't opine on the effectiveness of this use of time.
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Assuming he does his "designation" in the morning after rolling out of bed, how long is the action of "spend(ing) 1 point of spiritual energy" take?I can field this one. As a (Su) ability, Warrior Spirit requires a standard action unless otherwise specified (which it does not).
"And I did take a standard action to 'designate one such weapon' when I rolled out of bed in the morning." -- What every fighter who took Warrior Spirit will maintain.
*shrug* Doesn't matter to me. All that matters is whether your GM agrees with your interpretation.
I agree that they're both standard actions. The magus specifies that their weapon-enhancing ability is a swift action, but mixing weapons and magic is basically their specialty. I wouldn't expect a pure fighter to have it that good. By the way, a paladin's ability to use a bonded spirit to enhance their weapon is also a standard action, and is much more limited, but it also lasts longer (a minute per level). /shrug
The enhancement bonus allows you to add one ability, and your total bonus can be up to your training bonus, so that's definitely not bad. The bonus lasts for a full minute, after all, so that's likely to last through most (if not all) of the combat.
It should be sufficient to state a default of "Unless I say otherwise, assume the weapon type chosen each day is [whatever]."
Overall, I think Warrior Spirit is a fantastic ability, particularly in combination with the Gloves. Since both the total enhancement and your uses per day are based off of your training bonus, that synergizes very well.
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The magus specifies that their weapon-enhancing ability is a swift action, but mixing weapons and magic is basically their specialty....
* The vanilla CRB monk made an extra attack by spending Ki as a swift action, and bypassed a bunch of DR automatically.
* The warpriest cast Divine Power as a swift action.
* The brawler yoinked three combat feats out of the sky as a swift action.
* The ranger cast Instant Enemy as a swift action.
* The inquisitor applied Bane as a swift action.
* The paladin, who activated Smite as a swift action last turn, healed himself of 40hp damage as a swift action this round.
* The tripped swashbuckler stood up without provoking, got a +2 to initiative and quickdrew her weapon while rolling for init, tumbled at full speed, gained evasion, uncanny, and improved uncanny dodge, immunity to disarm, steal, and sunder, and is able to take 10 on six different physical skills without provoking under stress -- all from having one panache point and not spending it.
I wouldn't expect a pure fighter to have it that good.
I would, given that Weapon Master's Handbook was the awaited Paizo product expected to make the dull, unskilled, long-overshadowed and eclipsed fighter worth playing again as a class rather than just dip fodder in other builds.
I'm about 92.5% convinced that Alexander Augunas did not envision these as requiring a standard-action to deploy, and that as swifts they'd be in-line with what other classes have been receiving for in many cases a long time. (It be nice if someone could get his attention for a second.)
The enhancement bonus allows you to add one ability, and your total bonus can be up to your training bonus, so that's definitely not bad. The bonus lasts for a full minute, after all, so that's likely to last through most (if not all) of the combat.
Any ability that requires a standard-action to deploy in combat is severely and cripplingly taxed relative to the goodies (most better, see above) that the competition currently enjoys.
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Alex Augunas didn't write Warrior Spirit. It's from Melee Tactics Toolbox, which he didn't contribute to.
Or should that be the Magic Tactics Toolbox?
The paladin's ability to enhance his weapon is also a standard, is it not?