The worse thing I've seen regarding fly actually occurred in Shadowrun first, but I've seen it in Pathfinder as well (though not as bad.)
Usually the individual keeps Fly on as much as possible, permanently if possible, along with Invisibility and perhaps a handful of other spells. Then they are an invisible flying death drone for all intents and purposes.
That was bothersome. Other than that, Fly usually doesn't cause many problems in most of my games.
Fly, specifically the flight hex, is the only thing that has kept my witch alive for the last few levels. I'm not sure it has caused any major problems but, particularly in hex form, it certainly does negate the climb skill. How much of an issue that really is is debatable, though. Not terribly, would be my opinion.
Fly isn't as powerful as Overland Flight or Airwalk. I honestly don't have a problem with it when played as written. Minutes per level is weaksauce for basic mobility spells.
My flame oracle has fly as a swift action. In a big fight it allowed her to avoid 1 sword swipe and move around quickly, but then she got knocked out and almost died because of chain lightning and fall damage.
And people say reflex saves aren't important.
Although not game breaking, it is an option that requires the appropriate magic, item, or special ability. It can remove any tension from pressure plate or pit traps. It can make high walls less useful as a movement hindrance. It can allow the flier to move past melee weapon opponents that lack ranged weapons.
It is no more game breaking than invisibility, short range teleport, breathing underwater, and so on. The big offenders tend to be a few of the higher level spells, such as simulcrum, wish, miracle, or time stop.
In short, it can defeat some niche challenges rather anticlimactically, yet cannot change the world narrative.
I'd like to second ceilings as a way to put a cap on flying PCs.
@Bob Bob Bob - It sounds like your Magus might want to get stealthier or make sure he has solid defenses. Of course he could also fly and or become invisible if he wanted to.
Ceilings, arrows, casters. Many ways to deal with Fly.
One possible issue is the 'Kingmaker' type of situation where you're supposed to be clearing out the various wandering monsters that make the wilderness too dangerous for farmers and traders. Dinosaurs and things like that are almost always found outdoors, never carry ranged weapons, and can't cast spells. So a party with flight that chooses to make practical use of it ("A monster! Let's Dimension Door to safety, cast Fly on everyone, and then come back and kill it from the sky!") can trivialise a lot of encounters.
Sure, there's a lot of things the magus could have done. But the point was that Fly (the spell) was a limitation on him that none of the others had.
Magus can pick up Overland Flight at 10th level if they really want it. Retrain an arcana for Spell Blending or retrain a feat for Extra Arcana.
All magi gain access to the Fly spell at 7th level.
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This is a matter of personal preference, but I like a game in which flight doesn't become an option until much higher level. But that isn't this game.
Crane Wing was nerfed because people complained that it allowed you easily to beat any enemy that had only one attack.
Flight is much worse. It allows you easily to beat any enemy that can't fly and doesn't have ranged attacks.
Likelihood of fly getting changed? Zero. It's too tied into legacy. But it's definitely pushing the boundary of too good for 5th level.
Likelihood of fly getting changed? Zero. It's too tied into legacy. But it's definitely pushing the boundary of too good for 5th level.
Or fourth level, if you're a druid.
Fortunately, most groups don't do it that way, even if they could.
Wizard: Let's kill it from the sky so it can't fight back!
Barbarian: Charge!
Wizard: Sigh.
Or the GM can work around it:
GM: As the Halfling Ranger soars above the Cyclops, on the back of the bat-shaped-Druid, raining arrows from above, it runs into a cave.
Ranger: Oh, every week, there's a cave.
Druid: Or an inlet.
Ranger: Or a fjord.
Likelihood of fly getting changed? Zero. It's too tied into legacy. But it's definitely pushing the boundary of too good for 5th level.
This of course raises the question of what level fly is appropriate for.
Given that a fighter can't fly at all, and that monsters can fly or make ranged attacks from CR 1/4, I don't see 5th vs. 7th level making much of a difference.
Yes, flight allows you to easily beat any enemy that can't fly and doesn't have ranged attacks.... but that's a CR 17 behemoth golem. Does this mean that it's an overpowered spell for a 17th level caster as well?
One of my favorite stories is with a PC who was using Fly as a protection from fighter spell.
In a cave a bunch of skeletal champions with swords and bows appear. The rest of the party engage the front, she flies up to the ceiling. Every single skelton that wasn't engaged shot her to negative hp. Flying might protect you from swords, but it also opens you up to different angles.
What I seem to see most is players and GMs ignoring the fly skill when someone is under the affects of the fly spell. Players seem to think that if they can fly they can do anything. There are DC's for hovering, flying in a straight line, etc. Some are simple, some not so much so.
Properly run, the fly skill is not a problem.
There are DC's for hovering, flying in a straight line, etc.
There is no DC for flying in a straight line. There is a DC 10 check for flying less than half speed - this is pretty easy with the +6 (or more) skill bonus you get for casting Fly.
What I seem to see most is players and GMs ignoring the fly skill when someone is under the affects of the fly spell. Players seem to think that if they can fly they can do anything. There are DC's for hovering, flying in a straight line, etc. Some are simple, some not so much so.
Properly run, the fly skill is not a problem.
You know those DCs are super easy to make for anyone who bothered to even remotely invest in them right? They literally cap at DC 20. Magical flight even ignores 90% of the penalties of the fly skill which only effect creatures flying with wings.
Assuming a 5th level Wizard has a Dex of +2 (not hard) and has invested in the Fly skill and has cast the Fly spell, they will have +5 (Ranks) +3 Class Skill +2 (Dex Bonus) +4 (Good Maneuverability) and +2 (Fly spell), that's +16 so the Wizard cannot fail to hover and only fails to move straight up on an 3. 6th level adds another skill and fly bonus dropping failure to move straight up to a 1. By 7th level, you cannot fail any Fly skill DC where no penalty is present.
Also these threads seem to be a waste in my opinion, because most of the responses aren't actual ways to address the spell, their just "remove it from game" and "remove it from the game by punishing the players for using it". Or saying things like "just play it properly" when it's clear the person doesn't realize most people are and that like with Fly, it's only possible to fail on low numbers for like the level you get and the level after it and then you can never fail.
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Assuming a 5th level Wizard has a Dex of +2 (not hard) and has invested in the Fly skill and has cast the Fly spell, they will have +5 (Ranks) +3 Class Skill +2 (Dex Bonus) and +2 (Fly spell)
You omitted the +4 for Good maneuverability the spell gives you, confirmed to work in the recent FAQ:
"Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed."
Assuming a 5th level Wizard has a Dex of +2 (not hard) and has invested in the Fly skill and has cast the Fly spell, they will have +5 (Ranks) +3 Class Skill +2 (Dex Bonus) and +2 (Fly spell)You omitted the +4 for Good maneuverability the spell gives you, confirmed to work in the recent FAQ:
"Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed."
You know I try pretty hard to keep up with the FAQs, but I totally missed this. We really really need a list of those or something. Wow. I'm going to amend my above post to factor that in.
There is no DC for flying in a straight line.
whoops.
You know those DCs are super easy to make for anyone who bothered to even remotely invest in them right?
Yes. How many fighters invest in Fly? Or rogues? Or every class since the wizards can cast it on anyone. Even many wizards haven't invested in fly. That's the point. As a GM, if the character under the affects of fly has invested any skill point in fly, I would probably ignore most checks. However, throw in some adverse weather conditions .....
There is no DC for flying in a straight line.whoops.
You know those DCs are super easy to make for anyone who bothered to even remotely invest in them right?Yes. How many fighters invest in Fly? Or rogues? Or every class since the wizards can cast it on anyone. Even many wizards haven't invested in fly. That's the point. As a GM, if the character under the affects of fly has invested any skill point in fly, I would probably ignore most checks. However, throw in some adverse weather conditions .....
Uh... I've never seen a Wizard who didn't initially max Fly actually. Most of them stop putting in points once they cannot fail outside major wind conditions, but most invest in quite heavily. They might wait until 5th and delay advancing some other skills to dump max points into Fly, but they max it if they take the Fly spell.
Even Fighters who plan on using Fly at least make nominal investments in my experience (or get a headband). Rogues tend to max it if they plan to fly though in my experience. Because if you plan to fly, why wouldn't you invest in it?
Adverse weather conditions are poor way to "address" Fly. You might get away with Severe winds (only a -4), but if you routinely declare there is Windstorm and up weather, your players are going to catch on that you are doing that second thing I mentioned "remove it from the game by punishing the players for using it". I mean how often is there Windstorm and up weather where you live?
There are DC's for hovering, flying in a straight line, etc.There is no DC for flying in a straight line. There is a DC 10 check for flying less than half speed - this is pretty easy with the +6 (or more) skill bonus you get for casting Fly.
However not everyone gets that bonus. The Oracle of Flame does not get any bonus to fly without ranks and does not get it as a class skill for example.
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Also these threads seem to be a waste in my opinion, because most of the responses aren't actual ways to address the spell, their just "remove it from game" and "remove it from the game by punishing the players for using it". Or saying things like "just play it properly" when it's clear the person doesn't realize most people are and that like with Fly, it's only possible to fail on low numbers for like the level you get and the level after it and then you can never fail.
Comments like this seem to be a waste in my opinion because if a group of people have got together to discuss methods of limiting a specific spell that is there business. If you can't believe it can be limited you can state your opinion but on the understanding that is a fail answer. Or dispute the mechanics of a method but don't claim any attempt to limit a spell is trying to force it from the game. I for one found the teleport thread and this one interesting - I'd like to see them continue.
On to the topic. If outdoors, weather is relevant, as much from a descriptive element as anything else. If you describe the buffeting winds and having to struggle to keep your altitude players may be tempted to walk instead. I agree that the mechanical effects of wind speed are minor.
Other flying creatures should definitely consider targeting other flying creatures. In general a character that hovers 30ft off the ground should be a target for spells and ranged attacks as well as other flyers because of their prominent position.
Creatures on their ground could use cover, trees, overhangs, caves, gullets etc to evade the invulnerable flyer - that has a choice of land or fly away - particularly effective when it is a spell with a time limit.
Entangling effects should be effective against those using natural flight/wings - tanglefoot bags, nets, web etc.
Indoors consider roof height and also line of sight.
Flying suitably high or distant alone should be treated the same way as splitting the party.
I allow a single melee attack to be made at the end of a jump movement. The action after the attack is landing on the ground which I allow as a free action - that may be jumping off a high object.
Good old dispel magic can strip it away, also antimagic field ends it immediately meaning the flyer plummets to the ground.
I suspect greater invisibility deserves a thread all of its own.
One of my most memorable gaming encounters was when a dwarf trollslayer jumped off the tower of the vampire count, landing on the back of said count and succeeding on a grapple to hold on as they both crashed to the ground.
Anyway these were just a few thoughts for possible methods to limit. That said in my skull and shackles campaign I did just politely as the party sorceress not to take flight as it would spoil the gritty nature of the campaign I'm running. He was more than happy to comply.
I have never had a problem with flight, including PC races that begin with a flight speed.
"They can stay out of melee range" So? Unless the entire party has a flight speed, that just makes then able to run away. Also, slings, guns, bows, and even chakram exist.
"They can fly rather than climb/jump up walls/over gaps" Again, so? Unless the entire party can, or they are strong enough to carry every party member, all that means is that they either go into or get out of danger first.
Additionally, to echo sentiments already expressed, flight is great outdoors, but not too impressive inside buildings, castles, dungeons, caves, dense forest, thick jungle, or really anywhere other than fields, dessert, grassland, or tundra.
The flight rules need a lot less granularity. Something like running altitude in 50' or 100' increments.
So, if I want to fly over the owlbear, jabbing him with my reach weapon, in a thirty foot high cavern, what would your ruling be?
In prefer to say to a player, I would prefer it if you don't use the X spell because of Y. You are then free to allow it at a higher level or add it in as a magic item or wand form. I'm lucky enough that generally my players see this as preferable to banning. The example I gave was flying but also dimension door and teleport in the shackles game I am running.
I have never had a problem with flight, including PC races that begin with a flight speed.
"They can stay out of melee range" So? Unless the entire party has a flight speed, that just makes then able to run away.
Or kill the monsters with ranged weapons from a position of complete safety.
"They can fly rather than climb/jump up walls/over gaps" Again, so? Unless the entire party can, or they are strong enough to carry every party member, all that means is that they either go into or get out of danger first.
It's often not that hard to get the entire party flying. The Druid turns into dire bat and carries one person up into the sky, while the Wizard casts Fly on the Barbarian, who carries him past the obstacle.
It's not impossible for the GM to keep these things from spoiling entire adventures, but the fact that the GM has to work around it demonstrates that there is a problem. There are many stories I can't tell if the PCs simply fly past all obstacle.
GM: The black knight stands on the bridge over the chasm. "None shall pass!" he cries.
Players: We fly around him.
GM: You must find the enchanted glade, which is hidden somewhere in the Forest of Shadows.
Players: We fly up into the sky until we see the glade, and land in it.
GM: The mountain looks too steep and slippery to climb. The only way to proceed is through the mines of Moria...
Players: We fly over the mountains.
I have never had a problem with flight, including PC races that begin with a flight speed.
"They can stay out of melee range" So? Unless the entire party has a flight speed, that just makes then able to run away. Also, slings, guns, bows, and even chakram exist.
"They can fly rather than climb/jump up walls/over gaps" Again, so? Unless the entire party can, or they are strong enough to carry every party member, all that means is that they either go into or get out of danger first.
Additionally, to echo sentiments already expressed, flight is great outdoors, but not too impressive inside buildings, castles, dungeons, caves, dense forest, thick jungle, or really anywhere other than fields, dessert, grassland, or tundra.
Keep in mind it's essentially "Immunity from monster" from a large number of monsters. Against human-like opponents, sure ranged attacks of some variety exist, but if you go through a given monster manual you'll be shocked at few monsters have a means of dealing with a flying opponent.
What would any of us do in that situation. Take cover.
This isn't a thread about whether fly is a powerful spell, it's a spell to find ways of reducing the impact of such a spell.
I think it is important that when a person is being carried by a flying creature shouldn't be able to act freely. Unless they are riding the creature properly they should at least be considered grappled.
Flying is boring.
That is probably my biggest gripe.
If you think about it, it is also out there with the most boring super powers one can have. Think about the stardard Superman-clone powers. Super toughness, boredom. Super strength, boredom. Flying, also boredom.
Maybe because it is just too easy to control. If instead of flying it was being projected at a still vector at speeds that you cannot control aka human cannonball style, then there might be some amusement to it and danger. But 100% controlled omnidirectional hovering to any place just makes things dull, because then GM has to invent as boring solutions to counter it.
"Oh no, the magic winds summon stupid air enemies that attack you like land enemies but in air, bluh"
or
"IT JUST HAPPENS THAT ALL SOLDIERS IN THE ENEMY ARMY PULL OUT THEIR LONGBOW AND I WILL NOW ROLL A LOT OF ATTACK ROLLS"
I have never had a problem with flight, including PC races that begin with a flight speed.
"They can stay out of melee range" So? Unless the entire party has a flight speed, that just makes then able to run away.
Or kill the monsters with ranged weapons from a position of complete safety.
Only if the monsters are Int -.
Fly combos too well with spells like invisibility, windwall, fickle winds, and summoning.
A level 5 wizard with a crossbow could solo a level 20 fighter.
With two spells (fly invisibility) the wizard can become basically undetectable and scout far better than a rogue.
Fly's issues are less inherent and more that it's dangerous in the magic system it is in. By itself, it can collapse certain narrative arcs, like most player abilities.
Interestingly I've just seen the FAQ that explains if you are paralysed you can't use actions including one to hove. Add paralysis to the list of solutions = fall like a stone because the spell hasn't ended you just can't control the flight.
Could be very nasty for those that rely on flight as a matter of course.
Winged ghouls people, winged frickin ghouls!
Interestingly I've just seen the FAQ that explains if you are paralysed you can't use actions including one to hove. Add paralysis to the list of solutions = fall like a stone because the spell hasn't ended you just can't control the flight.
Could be very nasty for those that rely on flight as a matter of course.
Winged ghouls people, winged frickin ghouls!
Is that really any better?
It sounds more like another "Gotcha!" thing GM might do because the player is flying too much.
Fly combos too well with spells like invisibility, windwall, fickle winds, and summoning.
A level 5 wizard with a crossbow could solo a level 20 fighter.
With two spells (fly invisibility) the wizard can become basically undetectable and scout far better than a rogue.Fly's issues are less inherent and more that it's dangerous in the magic system it is in. By itself, it can collapse certain narrative arcs, like most player abilities.
How did the fighter reach 20th level without learning about potions or carrying a bow?
I've seen very few fighters make it past 7th - 9th level without carrying at least of few potions, including Fly. What high level fighter does not put one of his weapon training choices into a ranged weapon?
In my experience, nearly everyone in my groups carries a ranged weapon by second level, even if just an unenchanted bow or crossbow. +1 adaptive longbows tend be start showing up around 8th or 9th level for non-ranged, strength based characters, regardless of class.
Interestingly I've just seen the FAQ that explains if you are paralysed you can't use actions including one to hove. Add paralysis to the list of solutions = fall like a stone because the spell hasn't ended you just can't control the flight.
Could be very nasty for those that rely on flight as a matter of course.
Winged ghouls people, winged frickin ghouls!
Is that really any better?
It sounds more like another "Gotcha!" thing GM might do because the player is flying too much.
Winged ghouls might be too much.
An oracle or bard with Hold Person and a focus on enchantment/charm however ..... you're not even anti-flying, it's just something players should expect to encounter eventually.