Hello. Medium-time reader, first time poster here.
I'm GMing Rise of the Runelords, Burnt Offerings, and my players are currently in the Catacombs of Wrath. One of my players messaged me last night with his idea for having his wizard become a deity. Yes, he's an ambitious one.
"How would you feel about/ what would be an appropriate sacrifice for a version of Greater Create Demiplane that keeps growing?
"Via an incredibly convoluted series of steps, it's possible to make objectively 6.6 square miles of 8-foot tall demiplane over the course of a month.
"But I'd rather do one big, self-fueling ritual that'd get a decent amount of space. So is it possible for a 20th-level wizard to pull off a self-growing demiplane? Else I'll basically be trying to shove 300,000 people into 6 square miles and get them to worship so hard I sprout godhood, which seems a tad cruel."
Essentially, he's trying to create worshipers to power his way into godhood without having to deal with the Starstone ritual.
In-character, his thinking is that he knows just as well as the gods how to run things, but that they cheated to get their divinity. So he's going to engineer his own path to godhood that doesn't involved the Starstone to prove that he can, and to dispel the aura of infallibility around the gods. Part of the wizard's reasoning is that the gods die, and that those who have become gods are the pinnacle of man, but they are still men.
So, mechanically, I realize that its probably possible to create the pocket dimension using a version of Greater Create Demiplane; and to create the beings that inhabit it using Stone Shape, Fabricate, Stone To Flesh and Awaken Construct. However, I'm thinking that if something like this were possible from a mechanical standpoint (and, please, feel free to point out any flaws in that design), I seriously doubt that the gods would let him get away with his attempt at undermining their sovreignty.
So, my good and noble fellow GMs, do you have any advice for me?
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Even if you create a Demi plane...you are still not a Deity. You have power over your Realm but still not a deity.
There is a trial for him to undergo. But many do not make it...the ones that do...they become deities. Not to mention he would need to survive this campaign to even reach a power level close enough to complete the trials. Tho if he survives the Campaign you can always have a few sessions after so the characters can create a fullness of life. I've played RotRL 2 times through and both DMs ended the campaign right after the final fight. Was left up to the players to just say how this character lived the rest of their lives out. Please give your Players 1 session after to finish their characters story.
Well the game ends for the PC as soon as he completes the ritual...
But, he/she is probably OK with that. I would imagine that the player is looking for that awesome final scene where he/she succeeds and everything is perfect. Give it to him/her and then have a cliffhanger just to make it interesting. Have something like your senses open and the universe is your to command and then this incredibly powerful and resonant voice says from every part of the galaxy welcome to the family little godling, we need to have a chat about what your duties are in your new position. And STOP. Do not answer any further questions.
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So, I think it's worth mentioning that in the Golarion setting, worshipers don't fuel divinity. A god can still be a god with absolutely no followers, and even beings who are worshiped don't automatically become deities, so if you're playing in the Golarion setting, his plan to use worshipers to become a god isn't going to work.
You would need to be playing a Mythic Game to approach this level of power.
In a mythic game you can basically become a demi-god. It requires a the Divine Source ability which is a 3rd mythic tier ability.
As for the demiplane thing. No, don't allow it. Demiplane can be made permanent, and the cost to make each casting permanent is at least 17,500 gp (but cost goes up depending on whether you're using Creater Demiplane, Lesser, normal, or Greater.
Unlike in 3.5, worshipers don't make you a god. I doesn't work that way.
Otherwise Razmir would be an actual god. If you're not familiar with Razmir, he's a 19th level wizard that uses an extensive set of tricks to make people think he's a deity. He has worshipers. He's not a deity. No amount of worshipers make you a deity.
Also, your player is wrong about a lot of things.
Some gods ascended. Many gods existed before the material plane, Golarion, or the Star Stone.
Only Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, and Norgorber used the Starstone to ascend.
Most of the gods were never mortal. Irori was a mortal who reached a point of perfection in his existence that he became a god.
Also, people aren't under the impression that the gods are infallible. Everyone is aware that the gods aren't omniscient or omnipotent.
So, I think it's worth mentioning that in the Golarion setting, worshipers don't fuel divinity. A god can still be a god with absolutely no followers, and even beings who are worshiped don't automatically become deities, so if you're playing in the Golarion setting, his plan to use worshipers to become a god isn't going to work.
Yeah, look at Razmir. Plenty of worshipers, still not a god.
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"Ray. When someone asks you if you are a God you say YES!"
So what I'm thinking is, of course, to allow the PC her goal. And allow her to attempt different experiments to see if she can achieve her goal. However, in the end, she should come to realize that there are only specific methods of ascension by the will of the gods, and if she truly wants to have that power, she has to play by their rules.
Of course, that doesn't mean she can't pull a Razmir and set up a cult of worshipers just for the ego boost.
Does that sound about right?
Awaken Construct won't work without targeting a construct. The spell chain there doesn't really do that. Simulacrums of level 2 commoners aren't pricey, though, but will be a lot slower.
This is one stupid and unlearned Wizard.
So he's going to cheat as well, to prove that he can? There is nothing infallible about gods, this is a known fact and is claimed about every deity by entire nations and other deities. And many gods have never been mortal, even those who where didn't all rise to goodhood through the starstone.As a side note: someone with this attitude will have a hard time ascending, the real gods will have an issue with it and probably stop him in his tracks. Assassins will be hired to kill the false deity, by mortals and gods.
I don't think I'd go so far as to say the wizard is stupid or unlearned. Maybe she just has much to learn about how the cosmos actually work, which can happen in character. And having talked to the player a bit more, the goal isn't just personal deification, but discovering a replicable method of ascension that can then be handed out to the "worthy" so that they can ascend as well, without having to jump through the hoops that the gods have set up.
The wizard's main issue with the gods is that they aren't fixing things and they aren't sharing power with those who will do something to fix the world. I can kind of see the character's perspective, but at the same time, that's probably all the more reason for the gods to dislike her and send trials and difficulties her way.
firstly you should read Terry Pratchett's Small Gods, essential reading for anyone wanting to do this. I think the biggest question is do you want as to go down this route and how will the other players feel about it...
Becoming a god shouldn't be something you can just handwaved like crafting a magic item. I would suggest it has to be at least in part adventured-out.
Is the guy happy to have his God become an NPC because obviously it's going to have a knock on effect for the party - particularly at that level - though he could always form an avatar of a 20th level wizard.
Some other ideas for attaining god hood other than the starstone test...
- kill another God and steal their portfolio
- be sponsored by another God who gives up part of their portfolio so the PC can become a lesser God (like Velsharoon)
- a mystic ritual involving conjunctions of the planes
Fill your boots if that's how the party wants to go. Just beware that making one player very happy and three other players thoroughly pee'd off is not a good way to end a campaign.
I'd use spell research for this, actually. The plot is pretty cool, after all! A 9th level spell-ritual to create a slowly growing plane. Maybe a substantial initial cost, and the caster feeds it 6th+ level spell slots to increase the radius? (Added bonus of accelerating growth because of that.) A ninth level spell to create an artificial worshipper from nothing.
In Pathfinder, there are a few non-deity entities who would be very interested in this. Asuras are mistakes of the gods, and hate them- but might be more favorably inclined towards a new form of divinity. How would she react to evil agents killing and causing suffering towards her ends without requesting it? Qlippoth hate divinity, especially as it pertains to empowering mortals. She'd have unknowable horrors trying to sabotage her work. Rakshasas are unimpressed with deities, simply viewing them as bigger and stronger, but otherwise no different. Rakshasas seek to ascend and break the cycle of reincarnation themselves, which some have already done. She would have to deal with those who wish to steal her secrets.
I would suggest creating artificial worshippers kind of defeats the point of a worshipper. If the creature doesn't have a soul how does it worship.
What about bringing creatures with divine blood in one place - perhaps a specially crafted Demi-plane where the wizard defeats them for their divine blood in one great ritual.
I advise against messing up with the souls lols , personally i didnt think any god would directly send anyone to kill you , but your wizard attempts to recycle souls , even more a large amount , then probably she will live for about one day before pharasma send someone to bring the hammer down.
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Eh, its a public forum. We had been going around about this topic OOC anyway, and its only fair to let him have access to the same base information that I have. How I choose to use that information in game is a different matter, of course.
Let the player run through as they see fit. If he brings up a question return one of your own. "How do you ask it?"
A wizard with pretensions to godhood isn't exactly unknown for a class like wizard that runs on hubris and ego. That's the standard motivation of your classic villain spellcaster.
If he's a halfway decent role-player he won't mind the fact that he's likely doomed to failure, and a horribly excruciating death along the way.
He wants to do this at lvl 20 in a RotRL campaign. RotRL ends at 17-18. What's the issue if it's something that happens off screen after the AP ends? It harms no one as it happens completely outside of the playable campaign.
Hell, if you want maybe you can have a demigod campaign later where all the PCs attain divinity, and not just the one who was actively seeking it.
That said, his methods/process sound terrible.
Isn't this basically how Nethys became a god? He just became so super awesome at magic he exploded and then ascended to godhood?
I'd say just let him research an alternate 9th level version of Create Demiplane called "Genesis" or some such. Say the plane grows incredibly slowly, like a 10 foot cube a day (1/20th of the speed of Greater Create Demiplane).
Isn't this basically how Nethys became a god? He just became so super awesome at magic he exploded and then ascended to godhood?
Yes but there were no rules, no DM adjudication, only a line relating a Noodle Incident that had occurred in the past, i.e. a story event.
Wow, nobody went for the "He's playing a Wizard, he's already a god."
I'm so proud.
*claps*
I thought about it coming in, but there were already so many posts it wouldn't have been funny.
The wizard's main issue with the gods is that they aren't fixing things and they aren't sharing power with those who will do something to fix the world. I can kind of see the character's perspective, but at the same time, that's probably all the more reason for the gods to dislike her and send trials and difficulties her way.
The gods have their reasons for not getting directly involved. Specifically, the evil gods will step in to directly undo the actions of the good gods if they directly intervened.
Basically, all the deities agreed in a mutual non-escalation of things on the material plane.
They do however share their power with those do try to fix the world. Good deities invest power into clerics, oracles, inquisitors, paladins, rangers, and warpriests. The problem is that evil gods do the same.
I would suggest creating artificial worshippers kind of defeats the point of a worshipper. If the creature doesn't have a soul how does it worship.
What about bringing creatures with divine blood in one place - perhaps a specially crafted Demi-plane where the wizard defeats them for their divine blood in one great ritual.
First, part of my list of things to do is figure out what souls are and how to make or recycle them.
Second, I'm putting this on the list as "Plan B: The Highlander Method "
Do even the gods know what souls are? Most gods I've seen spend their time fighting over souls not recycling them. If you learnt the ultimate mystery of what is a soul and why do we have one, then you automatically transcend... But no longer care enough to do anything about it.
This sounds like a good opportunity for something to go wrong and create a new villain for the next campaign, and could allow the high level PCs from your previous adventure to continue on for one more quest. If that sounds interesting, conceptualize a story and talk it over with the player of the wizard. Maybe it is his character that becomes the villain for the heroes to vanquish. Maybe it's his extraplanar clone.
I've started mapping out a side quest for the knowledge the player needs. Its going to involve a lot of twists and turns, dead ends and red herrings, but some genuine leads. Also, I've found some nifty ways of tying in the other players' stories and backstories into this mad wizard's quest for power. But it won't resolve until after they've completed Rise of the Runelords, so I've got months to tease this player.
Cue the maniacal GM laughter....
Thank you all for your help, advice and suggestions.