My Kineticist was recently sneak attacked by a rogue. The damage due to the weapon did not pierce my force ward, but the GM still applied the sneak damage, is this right? If so, how can sneak damage, which applies as the rogue has found a vital spot, apply, when, according to the Force Ward description, the weapon has not actually achieved a hit?
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You're in the wrong forum here, this is for the Adventure Card Game.
Anyway, yopur GM is right. There is no separation between the "normal" damage and the sneak damage. The damage from a sneak attack is not an additional effect that triggers when you get hit. It is simply "more damage". So that provision from the force ward wild talent does not apply.
You're in the wrong forum here, this is for the Adventure Card Game.
Anyway, yopur GM is right. There is no separation between the "normal" damage and the sneak damage. The damage from a sneak attack is not an additional effect that triggers when you get hit. It is simply "more damage". So that provision from the force ward wild talent does not apply.
So what you are saying, is that sneak attack damage does not rely on a hit to apply!
there is no such thing as "sneak attack damage" the damage from sneak attack is added to the weapon's damage. So the weapon didn't do 1d6 damage + 4d6 "sneak attack damage", the weapon is doing 5d6 damage. Thus all that should be enough to puncture your ward and count as a hit. If the 5d6 couldn't do it then the entire thing is a miss.
My Kineticist was recently sneak attacked by a rogue. The damage due to the weapon did not pierce my force ward, but the GM still applied the sneak damage, is this right? If so, how can sneak damage, which applies as the rogue has found a vital spot, apply, when, according to the Force Ward description, the weapon has not actually achieved a hit?
Same reason attacks that don't penetrate DR with their basic damage can still apply Sneak Attack.
I just did a quick search on the prd, and the only thing that came up was the Lifesurge magic weapon ability, which lets you add the weapon's enhancement bonus to any temp hp you gain, but if I'm reading it right, it specifically says multiple applications don't stack, so you really wouldn't get more than a couple of extra temp hp out of it. There may be some obscure feat or trait or something out there that affects temp hp, but I haven't seen any myself.
The replies here stating that the sneak attack damage would apply are incorrect.
The wording on sneak attack includes the following:
"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."
Notice the part where it says "Must be able to reach the spot."
However, Force sword Thematically isn't a buffer of life, but instead is a telekinetic field which is deflecting blows away entirely.
This is further backed up by the phrasing "otherwise counts as a miss"
Meaning, the blow is deflected away. The rogue has failed to reach the vital spot they wanted to strike.
That means this falls into 2 categories: Thematic and mechanical interpretation.
Thematic: If you were trying to stab someone in the kidneys for extra damage, you obviously didn't deal bonus precision damage if you never hit them at all.
Mechanical: Since the attack didn't hit, and sneak attack explicitly requires that you be able to reach the target in order to deal the damage, then the damage wasn't dealt.
It does create an unusual situation of "Schrodinger's damage", but in this unique situation, it's correct to roll weapon damage without sneak attacks, and then apply sneak attack damage if and only if the weapon damage completely penetrates the ward and counts as a hit, therefor meeting the qualifications of the sneak attack.
The replies here stating that the sneak attack damage would apply are incorrect.
The wording on sneak attack includes the following:
"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."
Notice the part where it says "Must be able to reach the spot."
However, Force sword Thematically isn't a buffer of life, but instead is a telekinetic field which is deflecting blows away entirely.
This is further backed up by the phrasing "otherwise counts as a miss"
Meaning, the blow is deflected away. The rogue has failed to reach the vital spot they wanted to strike.
That means this falls into 2 categories: Thematic and mechanical interpretation.
Thematic: If you were trying to stab someone in the kidneys for extra damage, you obviously didn't deal bonus precision damage if you never hit them at all.
Mechanical: Since the attack didn't hit, and sneak attack explicitly requires that you be able to reach the target in order to deal the damage, then the damage wasn't dealt.
It does create an unusual situation of "Schrodinger's damage", but in this unique situation, it's correct to roll weapon damage without sneak attacks, and then apply sneak attack damage if and only if the weapon damage completely penetrates the ward and counts as a hit, therefor meeting the qualifications of the sneak attack.
it also says "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet."
ANY TIME.
The correct way (according to the rules) is roll all the damage, including sneak attack, then apply DR
“Reach such a spot” is basically vestigial flavor text. It’s referring to vitals being out of reach because of size. But I’ve never seen a rogue in Pathfinder being unable to sneak attack a target because it’s too large.
RAW (rules as written): roll all damage THEN apply the DR
RAW says you need to reach the target to deal sneak attack damage.
Name Violation wrote:
it also says "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet."
ANY TIME.
The correct way (according to the rules) is roll all the damage, including sneak attack, then apply DR
"ANY TIME" is behind the precondition of hitting the target. While it's unusual, in this unique situation, sneak attack damage should only be dealt if and only if the attack would first penetrate the ward.
That's both thematically and mechanics as written. You have to reach the target.
Melkiador wrote:
“Reach such a spot” is basically vestigial flavor text. It’s referring to vitals being out of reach because of size. But I’ve never seen a rogue in Pathfinder being unable to sneak attack a target because it’s too large.
I disagree. There's never been a more relevant writing of that.
If you're striking a telekinetic ward that deflects blows, you're obviously not striking the vital points you wished to hit. The telekinetic ward has no discernible anatomy.
RAW (rules as written): roll all damage THEN apply the DR
RAW says you need to reach the target to deal sneak attack damage.
Name Violation wrote:
it also says "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet."
ANY TIME.
The correct way (according to the rules) is roll all the damage, including sneak attack, then apply DR
"ANY TIME" is behind the precondition of hitting the target. While it's unusual, in this unique situation, sneak attack damage should only be dealt if and only if the attack would first penetrate the ward.
That's both thematically and mechanics as written. You have to reach the target.
Melkiador wrote:
“Reach such a spot” is basically vestigial flavor text. It’s referring to vitals being out of reach because of size. But I’ve never seen a rogue in Pathfinder being unable to sneak attack a target because it’s too large.
I disagree. There's never been a more relevant writing of that.
If you're striking a telekinetic ward that deflects blows, you're obviously not striking the vital points you wished to hit. The telekinetic ward has no discernible anatomy.
do you feel the same way about Stone Skin if the weapon attack deals less than 10 damage?
Force Ward states: "If an attack deals less damage than you still have as temporary hit points from force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss."
Sneak attack is damage from the attack, no different than using Power Attack feat to increase damage, and is part of the total damage. If (and only if) the ability specifically called out base weapon damage, then sneak attack, strength, power attack, vital strike, and other bonuses would be counted separately.
OP GM made the correct call.
Examples of abilities that trigger on a hit:
Grab and other free combat maneuver abilities, poison, stunning fist
Since this ability is being related to DR (although it is actually temporary HP), as that has a similar clause against rider effects:
Damage Reduction wrote:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
As for concerns about "thematics," the flanking or flat-footed condition could mean that the telekinetic field is not complete due to the distraction or surprise, or the rogue/swashbuckler/slayer is precise enough to punch through some weak point. Abstraction of the combat allows plenty of room to interpret.
Stoneskin doesn't explicitly turn hits into misses.
Precision damage is a result of striking precisely. Striking vital points. A telekinetic field has no vital points. Until you penetrate the field, you're literally whiffing on ablative barrier surrounding the target.
Imagine that a person is inside of a sphere of force. Would you deal sneak attack to that sphere as well? Thematically it's identical..
Mechanically however, we see that a failure to penetrate the shield means a target misses, and if they missed, they certainly didn't reach a juicy throat, or kidney, or vital artery.....
And the wording and rules lean into that.
Now it's a HIGHLY unusual case, but both the theme and written mechanics bear it out.
We don't usually see retroactive misses, but that's how the effect works.
However, Force [ward] Thematically isn't a buffer of life, but instead is a telekinetic field which is deflecting blows away entirely.
Thematically. But not rules. And whether that is actually accurate thematically is debatable, given that the rules mechanically treat it exactly as a buffer of life (temporary hp).
Even if I'm wearing a cup I'd much prefer talking a kick to the shin over one to the groin. The cup will make it hurt less/do less damage, but its still a vital spot that takes extra damage if struck. Just because the cup doesn't shatter (lose all its remaining temp hp) doesn't make it no big deal.
MuthSera wrote:
Imagine that a person is inside of a sphere of force. Would you deal sneak attack to that sphere as well? Thematically it's identical.
Mechanically you cannot attack a target inside of a force sphere. You could attack the sphere itself, and it will take extra damage or not based on whether it is susceptible to precision damage.
Telekinetic ward does not prevent you from attacking the target being protected by it.
Mechanically a force sphere and telekinetic ward are not equivalent for comparison.
Well, what about mage armor? "An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject." Is that a 1st-level, hour/level spell that makes you immune to sneak attacks?
I mean, it surrounds you. That's just like a kineticist's "You constantly surround yourself with a ward of force."
I would point out that the rogue sneak attack ability states: "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
Italics for flavor, bold for crunch. The see and reach clause is setting up the rule against attacking a creature with concealment (or total concealment for unRogue). Force Ward does not provide concealment, so it does not prevent sneak attack.
Shell of Succor wrote:
From Succor Mystery: You can surround an ally with bolstering energies that supplement its health and grant it extra vigor. With a touch from you (a standard action), one creature gains a ward of restorative energy, granting it a number of temporary hit points equal to your Charisma bonus + 1d6 per 2 oracle levels you have (maximum 10d6). These temporary hit points last 1 minute per oracle level you have.
The target always loses these temporary hit points first, even before other temporary hit points (including those from, for example, the purify body spell on page 9 or a kineticist’s force ward defense wild talent). If an attack deals fewer points of damage than the target has as temporary hit points from shell of succor, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss.
Same rules mechanic, and still nothing stops precision damage from being added. A good rule of thumb for "additional effects that trigger on a hit/miss" is that they usually require another d20 roll, such as a save or attack roll vs CMD.
MuthSura wrote:
Precision damage is a result of striking precisely. Striking vital points. A telekinetic field has no vital points. Until you penetrate the field, you're literally whiffing on ablative barrier surrounding the target.
The rogue isn't just hitting the telekinetic field, he is stabbing through it, just like the fighter smashes through it with a power attack and vital strike. I get your image of a complete coverage force field, but you are simply adding something beyond its stated rules.
Now a potentially edgier rule question case here is whether an archer with clustered shot gets to add up all those attacks although the feat only specifies damage reduction.
bbangerter : It's not treated the same as temp HP. It includes the phrase: If it fails to penetrate, it counts as a miss."
Belafon : Correct. Mage armor changes your HP, and when you fail to hit your target, you also noticably do not deal sneak attack damage, do you?
I grok do u : Correct. Nobody is talking about concealment. We're talking about your blade never touching flesh, and therefor never having dealt sneak attack damage in the first place.
If the rogue was stabbing through the field, he wouldn't only start dealing damage once the field was entirely collapsed. He would be dealing part of the damage to the field and part of the damage to the person inside it.
Which again is an argument for sneak attack not being applicable until the shield is down.
bbangerter : It's not treated the same as temp HP. It includes the phrase: If it fails to penetrate, it counts as a miss."
Let's cite the whole phrase:
Quote:
If an attack deals less damage than you still have as temporary hit points from force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss.
Sneak attack damage doesn't trigger on a hit; it is part of the damage dealt by the hit.
bbangerter : It's not treated the same as temp HP. It includes the phrase: If it fails to penetrate, it counts as a miss."
Let's cite the whole phrase:
Quote:
If an attack deals less damage than you still have as temporary hit points from force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss.
Sneak attack damage doesn't trigger on a hit; it is part of the damage dealt by the hit.
Again, if they were counted to have missed, then they obviously didn't sink their blade into delicious flesh, and therefor didn't meet the requirements for sneak attack of "reaching the vital spot."
the problem is appropriately interpreting descriptive text into mechanics. There are defined conditions or terms and exceptions along with procedures. Injecting something not well defined into the commonly used and understood process takes a good proof.
Words in RAW are used in context and the processes are often stovepiped(processes that are isolated, compartmentalized, and restrict the free flow of information, hindering communication and collaboration ). The same word not in that context may mean something else (it's interpretation). There are special phrases or key words that have a specific meaning but out of context they can just be common descriptive english which makes it confusing.
RAW also changed with time (see FAQs & wayback machine for old FAQs) and not all RAW is equivalent (looking at you PPCs!). So latest & greatest RAW applies.
Specific Conditions have to be met to do sneak/precision damage. A hit means the attack result ≥ target AC. There are specific exceptions that prevent precision damage. Conditions involving Hitting and Doing Damage is addressing riders like poison or blood drain, etc. Sneak Attack is not a rider BUT does have exceptions. Does your exception fulfill one of those? Or does it make a new exception along with it's proof?
Source Occult Adventures pg. 17
Element aether; Type defense (Su); Level —; Burn 0
You constantly surround yourself with a ward of force. You gain a number of temporary hit points equal to your kineticist level. You always lose these temporary hit points first, even before other temporary hit points. If an attack deals less damage than you still have as temporary hit points from force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss. These temporary hit points regenerate at a rate of 1 per minute. By accepting 1 point of burn as a standard action, you can increase the maximum number of temporary hit points provided by your force ward by half your kineticist level until the next time your burn is removed. If you use this ability multiple times, the increases stack. For every 2 points of burn you accept in this way, your force ward’s rate of regeneration increases by 1 hit point per minute. Whenever you accept burn while using an aether wild talent, you siphon some of the energy from the aether flowing through you and your force ward recovers a number of temporary hit points equal to your character level, up to its current maximum. You can dismiss or restore your force ward as an immediate action, but doing so doesn’t change the number of temporary hit points available, and the temporary hit points don’t recover while this ability is inactive.
= = =
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
= = =
Even with a proof, good/sound proof, or decent handwaving some GMs will say Yes, others No. It's probabilistic interpretation at work.
For me, in the Rules Forum, RAW is in print or directly implied and requires little interpretation. Interpretive RAW is quite a bit looser. There's also Common Understanding which is what people understand and practice at their tables, an implementation of RAW (what people say and what they do can be quite different).
If a Rogue hits a Kineticist with Force Ward and can execute a Sneak Attack, all of that damage is applied against the Force Ward. The Force Ward is in the kineticist's square and does not affect reach.
bbangerter : It's not treated the same as temp HP. It includes the phrase: If it fails to penetrate, it counts as a miss."
Given that the rules actually, explicitly and directly calls them out as being temporary HP
Force Ward wrote:
You gain a number of temporary hit points...
I'm going to side with what the rules state over your interpetation :). Just because they have additional details beyond what temp hp normally does, does not make them somehow not temp hp.
There are specific abilities that negate precision damage. Force Ward does not call itself out as being one of those. If there is an exception to the default rules, it needs to be called out.
Would you rule that the 1d6 damage from a flaming weapon does not take effect if the weapon damage itself does not get past the force ward?
Let's extend MuthSera sera interpretation and see what happens:
A bowhead whale has 30 cm/12 inches or more of blubber, which isn't a vital spot. An opponent with a 12-inch or shorter blade can't do Sneak Attack on it, as the blade can't reach a vital spot.
That interpretation is totally against the rules, but it uses the same reasoning that is the basis of MuthSera sera's argument.
The text in the Sneak Attack description is there to explain why some creatures and abilities can negate Sneak Attack, not to give a blanket way to say "I am immune".
You can't call immunity to sneak attack by donning a power suit that cover 100% of the body unless that power suit has an improved form of heavy fortification and explicitly says that it makes you immune to Sneak Attacks and/or precision damage.
I grok do u : Correct. Nobody is talking about concealment. We're talking about your blade never touching flesh, and therefor never having dealt sneak attack damage in the first place.
Which is the point, if the ward doesn't provide concealment or otherwise explicitly negate precision damage, then it doesn't negate sneak attack.
MuthSera wrote:
If the rogue was stabbing through the field, he wouldn't only start dealing damage once the field was entirely collapsed. He would be dealing part of the damage to the field and part of the damage to the person inside it.
Which again is an argument for sneak attack not being applicable until the shield is down.
Which is not supported by the rules or even the description. Force Ward is never described as a "shield" nor "field", just a "ward of force." There is no reason the sneak attack can't contribute damage to Force Ward's temporary HP any less than any other source of damage.
If the abstraction of HP and this effect is frustrating you, just repeat to yourself, "It's just a game, I should really just relax." ;)
Precision damage is a result of striking precisely. Striking vital points.
It is the result of striking more consistently at vital points. It is not automatically getting your sword fully into said vital points with every attack - if it were, it would bypass HP damage and the subject would be dead or dying after a single Sneak Attack.
(HP damage is not serious injury. If being actually stabbed in something causes no consequences other than losing slight more abstract-stay-in-the-fight-points, then it is hardly "vital" is it?)
Diego Rossi wrote:
Let's extend MuthSera sera interpretation and see what happens:
A bowhead whale has 30 cm/12 inches or more of blubber, which isn't a vital spot. An opponent with a 12-inch or shorter blade can't do Sneak Attack on it, as the blade can't reach a vital spot.
That interpretation is totally against the rules, but it uses the same reasoning that is the basis of MuthSera sera's argument.
While I would not rule that way, that is a semi-reasonable GM call based on the Sneak Attack text. Certainly a lot more reasonable than MuthSera's position on Force Ward.
I grok do u wrote:
If the abstraction of HP and this effect is frustrating you, just repeat to yourself, "It's just a game, I should really just relax." ;)
And if that doesn't work, they can try repeating "Hit points are not meat points" instead.
Not even tech forcefields stop sneak attack damage.
Activating a force field is a standard action that consumes 1 charge, after which point the field consumes 1 additional charge every minute it remains active. While a force field is active, the user gains a number of temporary hit points that varies depending on the force field’s power. All damage dealt to the wearer of a force field is subtracted from the temporary hit points it grants first. As long as the force field is active, the wearer is immune to critical hits (but not precision-based damage, such as sneak attacks). A force field has fast healing that replenishes its temporary hit points at a fixed rate each round, but if the force field’s temporary hit points are ever reduced to 0, the force field shuts down and cannot be reactivated for 24 hours. Force fields are automatically reduced to 0 hp by disintegration effects. A force field can be deactivated as a free action.
Since the force ward does not have any language changing the base rules for damage beyond low damage counting as a miss, there is no justification for denying sneak attack damage.
